Poll: Neon Genesis Evangelion: Masterpiece or a Mess?

[Casual Shinji]

Love it or hate it it seems like I should watch it so I can at least join the conversation! And I have some time off, so time to get in on it. I understand it's a 26 episode series with ?3? follow on movies. Or, it's the directors cut re-dux as a series of movies, which includes everything. Is the original on blu ray, it just the re-dux?

It's 26 episodes with episode 22, 23, and 24 having a director's cut, followed by Death and Rebirth which is just a compilation of the series with a few original scenes which are little more than animated chapter titles. Next is End of Evangelion which is the big fat 'You want the truth..? You got it!' alternate version of the final 2 episodes. And then there's the Rebuild movies of which there are currently 3 out and retell the story of the original show.

Unfortunately only the Rebuilds are on blu-ray as of yet.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

It's basically both. Good in some places, a mess in others. Like most other people I was annoyed by Shinji, but I understand his reactions to a majority of the situations. They're simply out of his depth and experience, we as viewers may sneer at them, but remembering his age and the sheer weirdness of the situations he's thrust into as well as the personal issues he has, it's....well, it's understandable he acts that way. Annoying, yes. But understandable.

My only real complaint is that it seems like characters who are reasonably well-adjusted or 'normal'; characters who aren't bogged down by the weight of their problems, or seem to have learned to co-exist with them (looking at you here, Kaji) either aren't given a lot of screen-time, or are gotten rid of in other ways. I feel like having at least one person who is sort of 'over the hump' in terms of dealing with their personal issues, even if they're a long ways from being okay, can serve as a way to highlight things.

All of the characters being who they are is fine. They are indeed well-designed characters without being archetypes. However without a consistent foil of what I'll call 'normal', their problems, their issues, don't feel like they have weight. The balance is too off for me, so when the characters come in and become all about their problems, my heart doesn't go out to them or relate, I simply go: "oh great! Add another crazy onto the bandwagon." It's not a problem for them to overcome because we're seeing EVERYONE'S problems. It's just too much and I feel like without an equalizing element, it all just falls into some blob of nihilistic 'life sucks and people are so broken' strangeness.

I'm not saying don't design characters that way. I'm not saying don't stock a series with characters like that. You can do both. But the way NGE does it...it....to me it feels like we're not just seeing it, we're WALLOWING in it. It's there every second of every episode and EVERYONE has ALL THESE PROBLEMS and THEY'RE JUST SUCH MESSED UP PEOPLE and no one's going to get any better. No one's going to take a look at Shinji's past and the things he does and go "son, you need to talk to someone." They're just gonna let it be for the sake of the show. They're not going to show anyone even TRYING to get better or face or learn to live with their personal demons.

It's a good show, I just feel like it hangs in the 'people and the world are just SO DEPRESSINGLY MESSED UP!' space far too often and far too long. I get that the creator had issues and it's interesting that this is what he made while working through them. I just feel like it almost revels in the notion of being a messed-up human being. Like it shows it so often without even the pretense that these people are working on or through their issues that it makes me feel like the series is telling you it's cool and normal to be like these people.

 

[Zak757]

Since we're discussing the rest of Evangelion I might as well go over my thoughts on the rest of the franchise.

Rebuild 1.11 - Not a whole lot to say about it, it's basically a compilation movie for the first third of Evangelion but with impressive modern graphics that shouldn't be understated. And it is certainly one of the prettiest looking animations out there. A lot of excellent character building scenes were cut out to make this fit into a 90 minute movie however, so I'd still say the original is better.

Rebuild 2.22 - If NGE was an anime disappointed in anime, than 2.22 was a movie that ignored everything NGE had to say. It's basically the fan fiction version of Evangelion that everyone who didn't like NGE wanted. Shinji becomes a bad ass! All the girls want Shinji! There is a new girl with HUGE BOUNCY BOOBS that lands on Shinji's face with her BOOBS! Asuka is more tsundere than ever, and she gets to wear a sexy transparent suit because of REASONS! Who needs that boring psychology garbage when we can have explosions? Explosions! Lots of explosions and fanservice and super robot nonsense mixed in! And as a Hollywood block buster, it's actually really damn good. It was titled "You Can (Not) Advance" however, and given how Hideaki Anno works, I think this is stating that this movie isn't going to get anyone in the audience anywhere.

Rebuild 3.33 - And now that 2.22 has baited the hook by grabbing the attention of everyone who didn't like NGE, here comes 3.33 to rip everything down in the most brutal way possible. It's almost the polar opposite of the last movie. 2.22 is pure fanservice that was divorced from the elements what gave NGE it's power, 3.33 is trying (keyword) to be nothing but those elements while everything else is stripped down. And that's probably why I don't like it. It's nothing but an angry and direct conversation with the audience on why they don't deserve nice things if they don't move forward with life. The plot is distracting in how much of an utter failure it is on just about every level, the characters lack the depth to make decent inward introspection possible, and they are so broken that even the most fucked up of us couldn't relate to them.

Off-topic note: the third Madoka Magica movie, Rebellion, is basically being 2.22 and 3.33 combined except that it's done in a much much much better fashion. I'm strongly recommending it if you've seen the original, which I can't say for the Rebuild movies.

End of Evangelion - Probably the best thing to come out of this franchise. It's the last two episodes of NGE stetched out to 90 minutes, but with a fairly large budget which lets us see what was going on outside of Shinji's head while we were all stuck inside. The music and visuals are beautiful, but it still has all the qualities that made NGE what it is, if a little more disgusted with the audience rather than just disappointed. Given how many death threats he recieved after the finale, it's understandable.

Manga - I've kind of forgotten about it, but I think this existed somewhere between NGE and 2.22. It's got a Shinji who is stronger but doesn't reach fan fiction levels of badass, most of the filler taken out, more character moments, a bit less navel gazing, a slightly more positive and mentally stable attitude, and no budget troubles. Probably what I think a lot of people are looking for.

 

[TheVampwizimp_v1legacy]

I'm only speaking of the 26 episode series as I have no information on the rebuild films. I think it's undoubtedly a mess, critically speaking. Strict followers of convention will tell you that the plot is a mess, the character arcs are hit-or-miss, and the use of symbolism signifies nothing. It has issues with many things, and is just a bit fucked up beyond that anyway.

But I think masterpiece is a good word for it. It is certainly a masterpiece for its creator. I think it's flawed because Anno got to do with it what he wanted. He wasn't necessarily concerned with an airtight plot or classical themes and characters. He made the show he wanted to make, to say the things he wanted to say, and I think he accomplished his goal brilliantly. It's a masterpiece in the sense that it began with a high and noble goal it is everything its creator wanted it to be, warts and all.

 

[generals3]

I'm going to say it's a mess. A really really big mess, actually mess-wise it's a masterpiece. I guess the fact it's so absurd makes it good in a certain way (not sure which one).

 

[Crazy Zaul]

It could have been good. If they changed pretty much every single thing about it.

 

[Denamic]

I can't enjoy it, but it's by no means a mess. It's very good and deserves critical acclaim, but I can personally not stand Shinji. I have a severe allergic reaction to the whiny little shit. If it wasn't for the little piece of trash that he is, the series might have been among my all-time favourite animes. But that's not going to happen with a protagonist that makes me too angry to watch a full episode in one go without pausing to cool off. Of all the traits that typical anime protagonists tend to have that I dislike or outright hate, Shinji somehow manages to possess every single one of them.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

I don't go out of my way to watch it, but will try to if I get the chance. Kinda torn in a love hate relationship with the series. I don't really know what's so great about it, but that's just me.

Honestly, I just know it's going to be filled with brutality, and death and I don't have much of a stomach for it. It's not the most brutal anime I've ever watched, but I just don't like the brutality employed by NGE. I've seen worse brutality of the sort, but all the same, I shy away from it.

I don't really find the characters too annoying, but some parts just kinda hit close to home, which is kind of a turn off, too.

Other than the intense brutality, though, It's okay.

 

[Something Amyss]

Both.

It's been a while since I watched it, but I liked it enough that it was the first anime box set I ever bought and was among the first full series I ever owned on DVD.

That said, I get why people trash it. I even agree with a lot of the criticisms. I still came back to it, and I will again. I love it, but every time I watch it I make a bunch of complaints myself.
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And yet, I still haven;t watched the more recent stuff.

 

[faefrost]

I like it. At least the original presentation. It is flawed. It really isn't for everyone. And it is hard to watch past some of the shrieky and annoying characters to actually find the broader story that is being told there. But there is most definitely a streak of brilliance in there.

Like Anno's other works it starts someplace familiar in a well settled trope (teenage kids piloting giant robots to save the world in between going to high school.)and then takes it someplace where you weren't expecting. All of the angels names? What they are doing? What the Evangelions are? It is somehow blending a huge smattering of end of the world / end of creation / revelations type myths into one soul crushing story. And then attempting to humanize it. Each character is deeply traumatized and broken. These are the survivors. These are effectively those left behind when the rapture arrived. There is a lot of Western Christian and Talmudic traditions winding through it all. (and not the good "everybody play nice type ones"). And set against that, you had this cast of extremely damaged characters just getting more so. Having what few links what few strings still keeping them tied to reality break one by one. Until things get really weird.

Yeah the last two episodes are just bizarre. They are Shinji's in head mental breakdown. The out of head breakdown of everything else is the 2 OVA End of Evangelion movies.

So yeah Masterpiece with some deep deep flaws. Some of which is the weird connections within the Ikari family. The weird hints at unintended incest, odd relationships and just plane wtf through that group is kind of sickening. Take the idea that Shinji and Rei might get together. Ummm Ick! She is a sort of clone from Shinji's mother, made by taking half of his mothers DNA and mixing it with someone elses probably Gendo's. Half his mothers DNA + Half his fathers DNA, plus a splash of Eve's = HIS SISTER! ICK! Yet she is following Gendo around at his beck and call as he stares at her with a look...

Further add to this the fan or researched speculation that part of the Interplay among the pilots had to do with their souls. Somewhere in an interview someone gave a garbled speech that the childs soul comes from the mother as the child lies within her. So mother and child split or share a bound soul. Shinji's mother was absorbed in EVA01. Her Soul resided there and he could bond with it to control the Eva. Asuka's mother had her soul sucked out by Eva02 living behind a broken madwoman. But because her soul linked she could pilot. Rei got her soul, which she did have, at least the main Rae, because she like most real clones had to be gestated in a womb. The most likely candidate for that would have been Ritsuko's mother. Long under gendo's seduction. She committed Suicide in unit 00. Having the situation where the souls matched, but not quite naturally so. As a result the EVA and Pilot hated each other.

The Ick factor increases when you realize that Rei is in fact both Shinji's sister and Ritsuko's sister. And because of Gendo's longstanding affair with Ritsuko's mother, Gendo is probably Ritsuko's father as well. And that is some of the easier stuff that they never say but can be quickly figured out. And this sort of thing is just tearing through in other characters. Misato and Koji. Misato around the kids. The scars. All of these weird interplays are exceedingly well crafted. You just have to be of a certain stomach state to sit and watch them all.

I would put it as a deeply disturbed and disturbing almost masterpiece. The amounts of layers of story and philosophy mixed with how deep and complex the human characters are almost nail it. But while it is supposed to be a presentation of oddly out of place or disjointed images and characters It often feels wildly uneven and painful. It's worth watching if you want to really dig in and work out what is going on, and what the whole thing is saying. But do so with a light buzz for your own protection.

If you did get any enjoyment out of Evangelion I would also suggest taking a look at Hiddeaki Anno's show right before it, of which the last two episodes seem to set the stage and tone for NGE. The show is "Nadia;The Secret of Blue Water". Like most of Anno's shows it tricks you. It starts off as a Victorian Steam Punk adventure. A young teen inventor gets caught up helping a pretty young orphan circus performer evade a determined pack of robbers who are trying to steal her blue necklace. at the 1899 Paris Exposition And so the show begins much like a kids adventure story. with them seeking answers while running from and foiling the comically incompetent yet oddly well equipped jewel thieves. And you have to wade through a few episodes of that... as the characters grow and get to known one another. The bad guys get more sympathetic. When suddenly Jules Verne Enters the picture. They are captured and taken aboard the Nautilus and off with Captain Nemo. From there it gets darker and more serious with each further episode. Atlantis. She is the last Princess of same, etc. Quite a lot of plot that Disney later stole for their Atlantis movie. And finally it ends with the Titans. With the Angels. With Adam. And it is an amazingly well crafted ride. I would say better than NGE, just for the simple reason of Anno not being totally bat shit crazy as he made most of it.

Anyway enough of my ramblings as the Ambien kicks in (which is a great way to watch any of Anno's stuff) NGE is a wonderful mess. Is it a masterpiece? Yes. Is it awful garbage? Yes too? It is a deeply layered work and some of those layers are quite pretentious. But some of the other layers are mindblowing.

 

[faefrost]

I don't go out of my way to watch it, but will try to if I get the chance. Kinda torn in a love hate relationship with the series. I don't really know what's so great about it, but that's just me.

Honestly, I just know it's going to be filled with brutality, and death and I don't have much of a stomach for it. It's not the most brutal anime I've ever watched, but I just don't like the brutality employed by NGE. I've seen worse brutality of the sort, but all the same, I shy away from it.

I don't really find the characters too annoying, but some parts just kinda hit close to home, which is kind of a turn off, too.

Other than the intense brutality, though, It's okay.

It's because most of the brutality in NGE is very disturbing psychological brutality and not simply physical violence. That's at least where I find it off putting. But at the same time oddly twisted genius as art.

 

[Avery]

Eh.

It was worth the watch. But I don't think it's a masterpiece. To each their own though. I won't begrudge anyone for thinking that.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Rebuild 2.22 - If NGE was an anime disappointed in anime, than 2.22 was a movie that ignored everything NGE had to say. It's basically the fan fiction version of Evangelion that everyone who didn't like NGE wanted. Shinji becomes a bad ass! All the girls want Shinji! There is a new girl with HUGE BOUNCY BOOBS that lands on Shinji's face with her BOOBS! Asuka is more tsundere than ever, and she gets to wear a sexy transparent suit because of REASONS! Who needs that boring psychology garbage when we can have explosions? Explosions! Lots of explosions and fanservice and super robot nonsense mixed in! And as a Hollywood block buster, it's actually really damn good. It was titled "You Can (Not) Advance" however, and given how Hideaki Anno works, I think this is stating that this movie isn't going to get anyone in the audience anywhere.

You forgot the bit were Rei and Asuka trip over eachother making Shinji boxed lunch. Ugh.

Rei got her soul, which she did have, at least the main Rae, because she like most real clones had to be gestated in a womb. The most likely candidate for that would have been Ritsuko's mother. Long under gendo's seduction. She committed Suicide in unit 00. Having the situation where the souls matched, but not quite naturally so. As a result the EVA and Pilot hated each other.

I may be remembering this wrong, but Ritsuko's mom killed herself by jumping off one of the balconies at the command centre landing on one of the Magi super computers.

If you did get any enjoyment out of Evangelion I would also suggest taking a look at Hiddeaki Anno's show right before it, of which the last two episodes seem to set the stage and tone for NGE. The show is "Nadia;The Secret of Blue Water". Like most of Anno's shows it tricks you. It starts off as a Victorian Steam Punk adventure. A young teen inventor gets caught up helping a pretty young orphan circus performer evade a determined pack of robbers who are trying to steal her blue necklace. at the 1899 Paris Exposition And so the show begins much like a kids adventure story. with them seeking answers while running from and foiling the comically incompetent yet oddly well equipped jewel thieves. And you have to wade through a few episodes of that... as the characters grow and get to known one another. The bad guys get more sympathetic. When suddenly Jules Verne Enters the picture. They are captured and taken aboard the Nautilus and off with Captain Nemo. From there it gets darker and more serious with each further episode. Atlantis. She is the last Princess of same, etc. Quite a lot of plot that Disney later stole for their Atlantis movie. And finally it ends with the Titans. With the Angels. With Adam. And it is an amazingly well crafted ride. I would say better than NGE, just for the simple reason of Anno not being totally bat shit crazy as he made most of it.

Nadia in turn stole most of its plot from Laputa: Castle in the Sky though; Mysterious girl who is descendant from an ancient and hyper advanced society who carries a stone with mystical powers, boy who whishes to make a flying machine, pirates who eventually join forces with the good guys...

But Nadia is still pretty good. And it has a good deal of those typical bleak Anno moments that really grab you by the throat. Like the episode where that one crewmen dies, or when they actually reach Atlantis. It's also surprising some of the little similarities Nadia has to NGE. Nadia herself has a bit of Asuka in her and signals Anno's growing women issues, Nemo is very Gendo though less of an asshole obviously, and near the end there's even a plugsuit.

 

[stroopwafel]

At the time I thought it was an interesting spin on the giant robo anime but as the show wore on I think it got a little overboard with it?s thinly disguised and heavy-handed commentary on social anxiety/intimacy issues and its superfluous use of Judeo-Christian symbology and Jungian philosophy to add further density to a plot that already started to lose any direction. Personal issues can be a great source for creativity and inspiration but when they are lifted wholesale into a storyline with the narrative subtlety of an elephant, I think it kind of defeats the purpose. You?d be better off writing an essay or something in my opinion.

I won?t berate people for liking Evangelion and I can certainly see its appeal but personally I can?t really enjoy a piece of fiction that tries to force feed its social commentary with every turn it gets. Basically Evangelion can be boiled down to this: I don?t want to be alone, I want to get close but can?t b/c of my million different hang-ups, don?t let me be allooooooone. The characters incessant whining really started to grate on me after a while. I think the show in many ways portrayed the worldview of the ?enlightened? autistic: reach out to people and eventually all will be fine and dandy. Ehmmmm..no.

I think if Evangelion toned down a bit on its sentimental circle-jerking I probably would have quite liked it. The story(atleast in the beginning) was actually quite good and never needed to be an extensive and nauseatingly spelled out metaphore of the creator?s issues. The story could still be emotionally resonating and carry the same themes and messages but without the degree of overexposure that subvert their entire meaning.

Somewhat similar animes I really loved like Texhnolyze and Ghost in the Shell carry a lot of social and sentimental messages, but the difference is they never lose focus of what makes a good story.

 

[Cette]

I can't enjoy it, but it's by no means a mess. It's very good and deserves critical acclaim, but I can personally not stand Shinji. I have a severe allergic reaction to the whiny little shit. If it wasn't for the little piece of trash that he is, the series might have been among my all-time favourite animes. But that's not going to happen with a protagonist that makes me too angry to watch a full episode in one go without pausing to cool off. Of all the traits that typical anime protagonists tend to have that I dislike or outright hate, Shinji somehow manages to possess every single one of them.

More or less this. And even with Shinji being the the most intolerable little shit stain I've ever seen made into a protagonist the show is still pretty enjoyable for about the first three quarters. And then it crawls all the way up it's own ass and never comes back out for air.

Also but damn are the giant monster fights fun and well animated. Eject Asuke an Shinji from a cannon and the show could have even been great. Instead it's just a disappointing waste of potential.

 

[Breywood]

I've watched the original anime and while I can appreciate the art style and the overall story, I found the characters to be unlikeable. While it's apparently a "Japan thing" to have it this way, I prefer characters with a little more depth than cardboard cutouts or a bipolar light switch for a personality. I'd like to be clear, though, I'm not saying that it's a bad anime, I found in retrospect that the characters were bringing the series down.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

When someone says they don't like Shinji, I always wonder if it's because they don't identify with him, or because they identify too strongly with him.

I've watched the original anime and while I can appreciate the art style and the overall story, I found the characters to be unlikeable. While it's apparently a "Japan thing" to have it this way, I prefer characters with a little more depth than cardboard cutouts or a bipolar light switch for a personality. I'd like to be clear, though, I'm not saying that it's a bad anime, I found in retrospect that the characters were bringing the series down.

A bit ironic to say, considering Evangelion is generally regarded as having some of the deepest characters not just in anime, but in media in general.

 

[Breywood]

When someone says they don't like Shinji, I always wonder if it's because they don't identify with him, or because they identify too strongly with him.

I've watched the original anime and while I can appreciate the art style and the overall story, I found the characters to be unlikeable. While it's apparently a "Japan thing" to have it this way, I prefer characters with a little more depth than cardboard cutouts or a bipolar light switch for a personality. I'd like to be clear, though, I'm not saying that it's a bad anime, I found in retrospect that the characters were bringing the series down.

A bit ironic to say, considering Evangelion is generally regarded as having some of the deepest characters not just in anime, but in media in general.

It's how I found them. Shinji is a light switch: total insecurity or insurmountable rage. His father is a stereotypical career-driven monster and willing to sacrifice everything to succeed. I couldn't bring myself to be anything but indifferent to Asuka in spite of her best efforts of being abrasive. They may be the deepest characters in anime, but I found many of them to be chewing the scenery instead of adding to it.

I'll stress that it's how I found them, not that I am the standard and that others should catch up with me.

 

[Gatx]

It's a pretty good deconstruction of the mecha genre that tries to look at all the reasons it wouldn't be cool to have to fight giant monsters with the fate of the world in your hands as a middle schooler, but they made the fights look really cool so people miss the point.

Me, I'm not really interested. 3.0 really turned me off to Rebuild. An impressive feat, all things considered. But I'm wondering if that was intentional on Anno's part. He's been known to have a very love-hate relationship with otaku culture. If that does turn out to be true, I might buy 3.0 out of sheer appreciation for his audacity... which just reeks of masochism, but then loving Eva has never been a painless task. Har har.

3.0 is amazing when you think about it. As stated above, that's what the original Evangelion tried to do, but the concept was missed so the movies tried to reiterate that point with this massive bait and switch. It's almost a response to Gurren Lagann in some ways, since Gurren Lagann is seen as a reconstruction of super robot shows, Rebuild makes Evangelion work in a post Gurren Lagann world: "F*CK YEAH, SHINJI, GO KICK SOME ASS!" "Oh wait that was probably reckless and stupid looking back..."

 

[SGT_Noobnuts]

The whole show is kind of a take it or leave it to me.

But in the end I liked Neon Genesis Evangelion, pretentious symbolism and all. Personally for me this it's the best "Monster-of-the-week" shows ever made. The scenarios are diverse, the monsters are really well-designed and they constantly build each of the characters that are present in the show. Also while there are people that hate the protagonists you can't deny that they are in and of themselves memorable characters. That said (as usual) the ending is absolutely atrocious, a victim of both the creators psychological mindset and the poorly handled budget of the show.

I sorta see an almost van Goghian phase during the show, like you can see the points where the creator was having his good and bad moments in his life in each episode, or maybe that's just my overanalysing nature.

So, in short Neon Genesis is a gem of an anime, but one with many flaws in it.