Poll: New forum rules - Yay or Nay?

[bob1052]

Hrm.

Question! Sorry if it's been asked already, but we're 19 pages in, you'll excuse me for not reading them all. If I've already been in trouble, does that count to my new permanent record I now have?

Your profile says that you are at stage 5/8 (0 being spotless, 8 being gone). The green bars are for warnings, the yellow for probation (where you are apparently at), and later will come suspensions (maybe red?).

 

[Labcoat Samurai]

I think "advocating pornography" is a pretty hypocritical thing to be getting in trouble for, when it's being administered from the same company that brought you "I Hit It With My Axe"

Not to mention that many Zero Punctuation videos are NSFW. Seriously. I don't watch Zero Punctuation at work... Because, you know, I don't want to explain why a penis with a mosaic applied just appeared on my screen.

 

[Naheal]

Spoiler

A text box is meant for text, not images. If you want to add them to convey your point further, fine, but you should be capable of writing how you feel on a subject.

Woah, woah, hold on. Ever heard that adage "A picture's worth a thousand words"? There's a reason why I use pictures like I do. There's a certain amount of information and emotion that's displayed with a message or adds a certain amount of humor to an otherwise controversial topic.

Example: A topic about today's corporate journalists in the R&P forums may contain a post that simply has this and no text:

This alone could convey the message that the poster is attempting to give in less than a paragraph, yet they'd get nailed with a low-content post while putting up a paragraph about Jon Stewart being one of the hardest hitting journalists wouldn't, despite the fact that both conveyed the same amount of information.

You do realize that until a few weeks ago, Warnings weren't made public correct? We're not out to get anyone, we just punish those who have been reported or those we catch in the act.

Which is a different issue entirely from "there's no way to redeem yourself from your transgressions." On a message board that had just Off-Topic, Forum Games, and Game Discussion, you'd be in the right. However, with the addition of boards such as a Politics and Religion, issues will come up that will provoke a certain level of passion that wouldn't otherwise exist and, because of this, the board changes from a case of if someone will be banned, but when.

The punishment system is there to be used and I understand that it's there for that, but to simply state that your record from last year could invoke a ban despite having a relatively clean record in the meantime is a little ridiculous. Now that we have access to our own record (so to speak) we should be able to at least view how far we are down the track, but to say that this is a permanent state is a little alarming.

[user]BonsaiK[/user] put it best, though.

I think "advocating pornography" is a pretty hypocritical thing to be getting in trouble for, when it's being administered from the same company that brought you "I Hit It With My Axe", and the whole "might offend someone" thing is stupid to take into account when we've got content on here like Jimquisition and Zero Punctuation which is pretty much designed to be offensive on some level. I don't think they thought any of that that through very well, but I guess it remains to be seen how it's interpreted and how hardcore they get with it.

If you're going to send a message of this forum being "family friendly" and set up an area where "offensiveness" is something that needs to be watched, the site needs to really take that into account when they're putting new videos up. While I understand that Jimquisition is intended to be satire, you also need to realize that satire can easily turn into being offensive. It's an extremely fine line that's being walked there.

What, you don't show your kids ZP every Wed? I'm sure the mods' do.

Actually, I show them Jimquisition.

 

[PolygonPimp]

I believe it's a good idea. Well, kind of. Good intentions. Obviously though, no one's going to read it, and people will just end up complaining that there's a weird window that keeps popping up and being annoying.

In fact, it is kind of annoying. It's popped up twice, so I'm unsure if it's a regular thing, but can't I just agree to it once and be done with it? Maybe post it in a thread so others can re-read it if they absolutely feel it is necessary to?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Hrm.

Question! Sorry if it's been asked already, but we're 19 pages in, you'll excuse me for not reading them all. If I've already been in trouble, does that count to my new permanent record I now have?

Your profile says that you are at stage 5/8 (0 being spotless, 8 being gone). The green bars are for warnings, the yellow for probation (where you are apparently at), and later will come suspensions (maybe red?).

Yup, I figured it out after I posted. And am also sad that I'm that far along. 3 of those warnings are from 2 and a half years ago I think...

 

[Eri]

And that's why there's an appeal system.

Let's not kid ourselves. The appeal system is a joke and only exists to give posters a false sense of hope. You'd have better luck trying to pull out a tooth of a pitbull.

A freaking men. Has anyone ever actually successfully appealed? I doubt it.

 

[Small Waves]

Well we sure as hell can't give you a clean slate now. Too many trolls who have already received numerous amounts of punishments would be able to get away with more.

Actual trolls would never last long enough to have infractions retracted, even if that was implemented, and they would do a hell of a lot more than one or two "low content" posts.

That said, you have more on your record then one probation. You need 4 warnings at least to become eligible for suspension.

The first four warnings are given out over the most petty reasons. Why is a single low content post one of the eight stepping stones to a permanent ban? Hell, some mods don't even count it against you and just tell you not to do it.

You're not being punished a second time, you're just being warned that we our no longer being lax on you.

The Escapist? Lax? Escapist has the most ball-busting mods out of any place I have ever posted on. You're not as strict as the blood thirsty mods on Something Awful, but you guys overreact A LOT and are hellbent on finding any reason to not repeal infractions.

Just as a judge is more likely to treat a repeat offender harsher then a 1st time one.

Last time I checked, the judge doesn't become more eager to give you a harder sentence just because you came off as a jerk once or twice in the eyes of one or two people.

It's a broken nonsensical system riddled with moral dissonance (adblock is as bad child pornography and selling illegal contraband) that reeks of laziness rather than fair-handed moderation, since the way posts are handled by different moderators are clearly not the same. It's ridiculous to permanently ban someone who has not broken any rules for 3+ years and then does something insignificant one day. All offenses should be gauged and punished by the offense itself, not the users past history.

 

[Daedalus1942]

A dude in this thread put "test" to see the new rules I assume. He got a warning for it...CASE IN POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

He would have gotten a warning before the update. Low-content posts have always been against the rules.

That I understand though personally I think "low content warnings" are absolutely asinine. My problem is: the poor guy was testing to READ YOUR NEW RULES and you gave him a warning for it.

And there is a stuck thread on the front page of this very forum with a link to it. He didn't need to post to view it. If he feels he was mistreated, he can send in an appeal.

He would have gotten a warning before the update. Low-content posts have always been against the rules.

My biggest complaint is that I'm being repunished for past infractions. Repunished, of course, in such a way that will NEVER go away. It can never be undone. This actually makes it one of the least forgiving set of laws/rules possible.

I'm pretty close to just throwing up my arms and 'leaving' over this.

Well its only been implemented because people don't seem to get the memo no matter how many warnings we set out. Even before I became a mod, I saw several users making low-content post after low-content post.

If you put enough effort into your posts and follow the rules then you won't have to worry about them.

That's a copout.
I was told by ZombiesInc and Greyfox that if I was good enough for long enough, I could eventually become a moderator myself, and yet.. now with this new health meter, that's just not going to happen.
Everyone will see my previous infractions from a year ago and judge me to be unfit as a moderator.
And people wonder why so many are leaving the Escapist.

-Tabs<3-

Because you got a probation? Really? Ultrajoe use to be banned and he became a mod. Don't you think you're jumping the gun a little?

I have previous suspensions too. That's my point. They're over a year old but it doesn't change the fact that people will just judge me and not even give me a chance.
What ever happened to the fair and decent Escapist I used to know?
-Tabs<3-

If someone judges you based on a health bar, then they have problems of their own. The Health bar isn't there to tell other users "Psst, this person is a trouble maker", its there to tell each user how many chances they have left.

It's still incredibly damning and I personally will not stand for it.
-Tabs<3-

Well, there is a chair right there. As for incredibly damning, you claim to have been fine for 4 months, it hasn't had a negative impact on you, so just stay on the right track.

See? This kind of smart alec frivolity is why the moderators always get it wrong. I've never thought you guys take your job seriously, and this just proves it.
I say I won't stand for it so you tell me to sit in a chair... Jesus...
-Tabs<3-

Fine. I'll note that in my book: "Always act like a machine. No joking. No fun."

I don't see how I just proved that I don't do my job correctly and I doubt you know the rest of the moderators enough to make that claim as well. So please, if you don't like me, that's fine, but don't talk like we just sit around and do nothing.

I'm close personal friends with Aylaine, Zombiesinc, and Greyfox. You'd be incorrect.
-Tabs<3-

 

[Shanannara]

I'm curious. The people who are complaining about how infractions are now kept on a sort of a permenent record do know that had always happened don't they? The only appreciable difference is that now anyone can see it and not just the moderators.

 

[Yureina]

Disgusting...

snip

Excellent points all around. Given your prodigiously high post count, it looks as though you've invested more into this site than I have, so what I'm about to say may not be very comforting.

If they ban you, they lose. Maybe not if they ban *just* you, but if they, as a rule, ban people like you, it hurts the quality of the site, and it hurts their bottom line. They don't want to just pull in advertising revenue from people coming in once per week to watch Zero Punctuation. They're aiming higher. If they drive off their community, then they'll have killed the goose that's laying their golden eggs.

And you'll always have somewhere else to go. The internet is a big place.

Maybe part of the reason why my post count *isn't* so high is that I don't think this is the best place for intelligent discussion on the internet. It's relatively devoid of rudeness and obvious trolling, so that's nice, but it's also an awfully young and immature site. Can't even tell you how many times my unconscious reaction to reading a user-created thread has been to roll my eyes and sigh audibly. Talking to people on this site makes me feel downright old, sometimes.

Considering the pattern of events and "new mod/rule ideas" of the past few months, and the effects that has so obviously had on the community, I don't think they care any longer about trying to maintain it. Or, at least, that effects simply are not observed. The unfortunate fact is that, right now, this doesn't seem like a community anymore. Instead, it feels like we are just anonymous playthings to a handful of people who enjoy being above others. Acting out fantasies of being in control, not caring at all about what that actually means for individuals.

As for me having other places to go, that is true. I do quite well, actually. I won't lose anything no matter what happens on this site.

And i've felt a bit old here sometimes too.

But... I am just really disappointed. I don't like the direction this site is taking. The content is good, but... the authoritarianism here is killing the community. It has been for a while. Yet... this keeps going on, getting worse with each "rule update" made that, apparently, would make things better. All it ever does is piss more people off, drive more people away, and pretty soon... what is left?

 

[katsumoto03]

Well, considering that I'm going to permanently be on probation from the start...

This is bullshit.

 

[The_Evermind]

Just a sec let me post this so I can see the rules for myself.

EDIT: After looking around some of the posts I was mostly in agreement that warnings shouldn't be permanent but after reading through the rules myself it seems like the point of warnings is just that, to warn people that their post is unacceptable and that more like it will not be tolerated. So overall it seems like a positive change even if the biggest changes are a clarification on certain topics and allowing for other people to see what moderators probably always could. As long as 1. Warning for low content posts don't invade low content discussions. 2. Some of the wording in the rules seemed to be unclear but it looks like people have been present on this thread to help to sort that out. and 3. The part that I believe said, no posts supporting actions illegal in the U.S. or something like that, don't stop discussions on ethical matters relating to laws because those can be engaging threads that I for one wouldn't like to see the death of.

 

[dakorok]

The fact that ad-blockers are considered just as bad as Piracy and the like is stupid, and warnings should expire after a set time. The Steam forums use a similar moderation model to this, and minor warnings expire after a few months. Of course, if you post something that's bad enough for an instant suspension, that doesn't disappear.

 

[Yureina]

I'm curious. The people who are complaining about how infractions are now kept on a sort of a permenent record do know that had always happened don't they? The only appreciable difference is that now anyone can see it and not just the moderators.

Public records is certainly part of the problem, but the bigger problem is the system itself. It basically says "8 things are you are damned", regardless of the severity of those actions. I've got 3 things on mine, but all three of those things were so minor that I was honestly surprised when I got hit for them. Yet, for that, I am close to halfway to being banned.

There is nothing "fair" about that. The public nature just is another obnoxious addition that makes an already bad new system a bit worse.

 

[Leg End]

Disgusting...

snip

Excellent points all around. Given your prodigiously high post count, it looks as though you've invested more into this site than I have, so what I'm about to say may not be very comforting.

If they ban you, they lose. Maybe not if they ban *just* you, but if they, as a rule, ban people like you, it hurts the quality of the site, and it hurts their bottom line. They don't want to just pull in advertising revenue from people coming in once per week to watch Zero Punctuation. They're aiming higher. If they drive off their community, then they'll have killed the goose that's laying their golden eggs.

And you'll always have somewhere else to go. The internet is a big place.

Maybe part of the reason why my post count *isn't* so high is that I don't think this is the best place for intelligent discussion on the internet. It's relatively devoid of rudeness and obvious trolling, so that's nice, but it's also an awfully young and immature site. Can't even tell you how many times my unconscious reaction to reading a user-created thread has been to roll my eyes and sigh audibly. Talking to people on this site makes me feel downright old, sometimes.

Considering the pattern of events and "new mod/rule ideas" of the past few months, and the effects that has so obviously had on the community, I don't think they care any longer about trying to maintain it. Or, at least, that effects simply are not observed. The unfortunate fact is that, right now, this doesn't seem like a community anymore. Instead, it feels like we are just anonymous playthings to a handful of people who enjoy being above others. Acting out fantasies of being in control, not caring at all about what that actually means for individuals.

As for me having other places to go, that is true. I do quite well, actually. I won't lose anything no matter what happens on this site.

And i've felt a bit old here sometimes too.

But... I am just really disappointed. I don't like the direction this site is taking. The content is good, but... the authoritarianism here is killing the community. It has been for a while. Yet... this keeps going on, getting worse with each "rule update" made that, apparently, would make things better. All it ever does is piss more people off, drive more people away, and pretty soon... what is left?

This, on every conceivable level.

OT: With all due respect to Escapist staff, I in my honest opinion, believe the new rules are a train wreck. :L

And, I may be taking a leave of absence soon. :L

Also, this coincides perfectly with a few Escapees posting some not so nice things on my YouTube channel. >.>

You know who you are.

 

[awesomeClaw]

That's a copout.
I was told by ZombiesInc and Greyfox that if I was good enough for long enough, I could eventually become a moderator myself, and yet.. now with this new health meter, that's just not going to happen.
Everyone will see my previous infractions from a year ago and judge me to be unfit as a moderator.
And people wonder why so many are leaving the Escapist.
Moderators have continually gotten it wrong and there's never any consequence for them is there?
Whatever became of the person that banned LegendaryGamer0 for their own predjudice? Hmm? I'll bet that person is still moderating to this day.
Every day this website becomes more and more fascist and I'm really getting to the point where I wonder why I bother anymore.
This used to be my favourite forum, but now... it's just died.

-Tabs<3-

We keep all moderation actions recorded. They've always been there, and they're still there now.

Prior moderation is not an absolute bar to becoming a moderator, and there's likely more than the handful I know of who've had multiple infractions in their history. It will, however, be taken into consideration along with how the person presents themselves in their posts. If a pattern emerges that a person is repeatedly unable to learn from prior mistakes and unwilling to abide by the rules, then it would be rather odd of us to ask them to enforce those same rules.

If you think you've been unfairly moderated, there's a contact form where you can bring your concerns to the Staff for review. If you think someone else has been unfairly moderated, you can also use the Moderation Issues usergroup. If you feel a moderator has a personal vendetta against you, you can use the contact form, or PM Spinwhiz.

Riding the hyperbole train to the Nazi station is not the recommended route for any of that, nor is it on the way to any point approaching "rational discourse". I recommend, if nothing else, stepping back and taking a deep breath.

 

[Daedalus1942]

That's a copout.
I was told by ZombiesInc and Greyfox that if I was good enough for long enough, I could eventually become a moderator myself, and yet.. now with this new health meter, that's just not going to happen.
Everyone will see my previous infractions from a year ago and judge me to be unfit as a moderator.
And people wonder why so many are leaving the Escapist.
Moderators have continually gotten it wrong and there's never any consequence for them is there?
Whatever became of the person that banned LegendaryGamer0 for their own predjudice? Hmm? I'll bet that person is still moderating to this day.
Every day this website becomes more and more fascist and I'm really getting to the point where I wonder why I bother anymore.
This used to be my favourite forum, but now... it's just died.

-Tabs<3-

We keep all moderation actions recorded. They've always been there, and they're still there now.

Prior moderation is not an absolute bar to becoming a moderator, and there's likely more than the handful I know of who've had multiple infractions in their history. It will, however, be taken into consideration along with how the person presents themselves in their posts. If a pattern emerges that a person is repeatedly unable to learn from prior mistakes and unwilling to abide by the rules, then it would be rather odd of us to ask them to enforce those same rules.

If you think you've been unfairly moderated, there's a contact form where you can bring your concerns to the Staff for review. If you think someone else has been unfairly moderated, you can also use the Moderation Issues usergroup. If you feel a moderator has a personal vendetta against you, you can use the contact form, or PM Spinwhiz.

Riding the hyperbole train to the Nazi station is not the recommended route for any of that, nor is it on the way to any point approaching "rational discourse". I recommend, if nothing else, stepping back and taking a deep breath.

I will go to Kuliani everytime before I go to Spinwhiz.
I personally do not like him.
-Tabs<3-

 

[Internet Kraken]

All I know about this new system is that I'm apparently on probation, even though I haven't done anything recently to justify that. It's also permanent, so now every little thing I say is going to be monitored. The fact that I've received such a punishment and don't even have a message explaining why leads me to believe that this new system is, well, shit.

Everytime the rules get updated things just get worse around here.

EDIT: And for the record I'm not mad simply because this new system has put me on probation. Maybe that's justified, I'm not sure. The reason I'm mad is becuase I don't know why. I'd expect a message explaining what I did and why it received this punishment but no such one exists. I don't get how you expect people to improve if you don't even inform them of why their profile has a certain moderation level. Hell you could easily continue posting on this site for months and not once look at your own profile to see it.