That is why we give 7 chances. Don't think I'm trying to push you, or anyone else, off either. I completely understand where you are coming from as we've had this discussion internally before we could even think about launching the new penalty system and updated rules (which has been months now). We just feel that we do give chances, 8 of them, and those who can not hold it together for The Escapist to have to tell someone 8 times that isn't how you behave is more than enough.
My problem with that is I've had half of those chances skipped over. I'm in the yellow and I've only ever had one post break the rules. Never got any warnings, it was straight to probation the first time. So now anything I do is automatically a suspension, and even though that was quite a long time ago I'm 3 away from a permanent ban.
You aren't addressing the main issue of the punishment system. You're asking us to slip as little as possible, but, being human, it's going to happen. You're also stating that, if we slip up eight times, it's going to result in a permaban. This is where I feel that the system wouldn't work. While there are a few individuals who would be able to keep that by only posting maybe once or twice a week and stating something about a game or two, this essentially puts a lifetime limit on a particular account.
I'm sorry, mate. I understand that you're looking at a rewards system down the road if we play nice, but you really need to consider bringing such a system in sooner rather than later.
Actually, there are members who have been here for years and have over 10,000 posts who don't have a single warning. Over 99% of the current posters don't have more than 2 warnings. It IS possible and should be if everyone respects everyone else. The problem comes in when people's attitudes get in their way and they get "mad". This is a text based forum, if something pisses you off that much, walk away. Even better, report, ignore and walk away for a bit. There is no reason someone should be warned 8 times to be respectful and not call others names. In a debate setting, you would be disqualified, in real life you could be arrested for verbal assault.
If people really want to be able to say whatever they want, in any way they want, there are a lot of places on the internet to do so.
But you don't have to attack people to recieve a warning. I've recieved probations for 'trolling' simply for expressing an opinion, a post without a single personal attack.
It was assumed I was trolling, and because of the misinformed accusations and assumptions, my "record" is tarnished because a mod decided that they didn't like what I wrote.
I've recieved a warning for complaining about the advertisements in the side panels, when there was nothing in the rules which forbade such action.
I used to moderate a forum. I know how it works.
That is why this whole permanent record thing is bullocks.
Even if, as you claim "less than 2%" (Which, by the by, we have no way of actually verifying) have more than 2 warnings, that's still a 2% where there is a margin for error.
That's still a 2% built partly on your mistakes, either individually or as a team.
That's a 2% who are going to pay for assumptions and presumptions by the mods and have no real form of redress because for the most part they have no idea what's wrong with their post beyond a single word justification.
Also, remember that this is the internet. You've seen people who, no matter how many times they're warned, will keep making accusations against other users/generally being an unpleasant fellow around these parts, no matter how many times they're warned, yes?
Why are you assuming that the minority is entirely made up of people who have been wronged by the mods?
EDIT: I read the post wrong, and I apologise.
99% of the posters with less than 2 warnings is not an exception, it's the overwhelming majority. However, I'm not saying we won't implement a system to get strikes back. What I am saying is people need to hold themselves accountable for what they say and how they say it, regardless of who they may be. That isn't asking too much.
As far as I can tell, people are being punished less harshly than the old rules called for. People who were 1 warning away from being banned now have 2. I might be wrong on this.
That is why we give 7 chances. Don't think I'm trying to push you, or anyone else, off either. I completely understand where you are coming from as we've had this discussion internally before we could even think about launching the new penalty system and updated rules (which has been months now). We just feel that we do give chances, 8 of them, and those who can not hold it together for The Escapist to have to tell someone 8 times that isn't how you behave is more than enough.
My problem with that is I've had half of those chances skipped over. I'm in the yellow and I've only ever had one post break the rules. Never got any warnings, it was straight to probation the first time. So now anything I do is automatically a suspension, and even though that was quite a long time ago I'm 3 away from a permanent ban.
You aren't addressing the main issue of the punishment system. You're asking us to slip as little as possible, but, being human, it's going to happen. You're also stating that, if we slip up eight times, it's going to result in a permaban. This is where I feel that the system wouldn't work. While there are a few individuals who would be able to keep that by only posting maybe once or twice a week and stating something about a game or two, this essentially puts a lifetime limit on a particular account.
I'm sorry, mate. I understand that you're looking at a rewards system down the road if we play nice, but you really need to consider bringing such a system in sooner rather than later.
Actually, there are members who have been here for years and have over 10,000 posts who don't have a single warning. Over 99% of the current posters don't have more than 2 warnings. It IS possible and should be if everyone respects everyone else. The problem comes in when people's attitudes get in their way and they get "mad". This is a text based forum, if something pisses you off that much, walk away. Even better, report, ignore and walk away for a bit. There is no reason someone should be warned 8 times to be respectful and not call others names. In a debate setting, you would be disqualified, in real life you could be arrested for verbal assault.
If people really want to be able to say whatever they want, in any way they want, there are a lot of places on the internet to do so.
These are exceptions, not the tendency, though, and you know it. People get angry and post things that wouldn't normally go there. Rationality doesn't come into play when people get angry enough. We're just not wired to work like that and people are going to make mistakes. Hell, people who frequent the R&P forums get warnings and suspensions fairly regularly, unless part of your goal is to filter out all but the maybe 3 people that frequent there that seem to be fine.
That specific area of this forum tends to inflame people more than any other part and, because of this, we are constantly getting new blood because of this.
I'm not saying that the record needs to be eliminated; far from it, actually. I'm saying that the frequency and the severity of the infractions needs to be taken into account when we're talking about punishment, otherwise you're asking people to be unrealistically saintly or quiet.
99% of the posters with less than 2 warnings is not an exception, it's the overwhelming majority. However, I'm not saying we won't implement a system to get strikes back. What I am saying is people need to hold themselves accountable for what they say and how they say it, regardless of who they may be. That isn't asking too much.
I realize that you probably aren't personally responsible for any of this so I apologize if it seems like everyone is taking out their frustration on you but I have something to add. What about people who make a post that gets them in trouble without realizing it? Like if they post their desktop background in a thread and then they get a strike for "Low content post" and they get a suspension even thought they didn't really do anything "bad", or if they make a thread that is similar to an other one because they didn't see anything like it on the first 3 pages of the thread list but little do they know that it is only because there has been a lot of activity and got pushed back. Then they get banned over a simple misunderstanding. I just want to re-iterate that I know you aren't the supreme judge of the internet and it could seem like we are making a scapegoat out of you and I'm sorry if that is the case, I just hope you have the answers to our questions.
First of all thank you for taking the time to answering.
Secondly, I thought I might as well share some refined ideas I had about changing the current 'health bar' system for the better.
Have it as an eight segment bar just like now, and have everyone start at a quarter, (or possibly half) filled.
A warning would remove one segment, a more serious offense two. Once the bar is empty you get banned.
In addition the bar would slowly fill up as you post. I was thinking something along the lines of posting the equivalent of the Morpheus badge, 1000 posts without any modwrath (for this idea I'd count warnings as modwrath too) in no less than two months if memory serves, would earn you one segment, possibly it would also require exponentially more post to reach the higher segments.
To avoid having people 'saving up goodwill' for the purpose of breaking the rules without getting the sufficient punishment I'm thinking a system that keeps track on how often you have received modwrath, and would serve as a negative multiplier. Having something more serious than a simple warning (or too many warnings) on your record would make your health bar fill up slower.
I'm also thinking it could be a good idea to have a reward for completely filling up your health bar, a shiny badge for example.
Simply put having a bar that works in reverse to the current one.
As I see it a system like that would be a bit harsher; if you start out on half health you're only 4 warnings away from a ban, but I would think it would at the same time also encourage good behavior, as it would take considerable time and effort to earn an extra chance, and the proposed badge award for filling up your bar completely would naturally be removed if you stopped behaving.
I naturally do not know how hard it would be to implement, or how willing the staff/mods would be to implement it, but I felt there was no harm in sharing my ideas.
I just know that I for one would prefer a system with a lower number of chances that takes into account the rest of your posting history, not just the posts in which you broke the rules over one with a high number of chances that is completely unforgiving.
Thank you.
I tried to think up something that would be hard, but fair.
That and, to be honest, for a health bar, the current one works backwards, so I started playing with the idea of of having it work like a traditional health bar, and just continued to refine the idea.
You're absolutely right. Some people are just rude because they feel like it.
It's entirely possible to have a debate, even in the R&P section of the forums, without sinking down to a lower level. I've done it myself on several occasions.
Argue against the point that the other person has made, not against the other person, and you're fine. Hell, the times I've done it, several of those people I've argued against have ended up as my friends here on The Escapist because I remained civil, and our arguments usually ended on us both finding some common ground, however small, that we can both agree on.
(I left out the rest of your post on purpose because what you've said has already been brought up and answered several times. )
Also, remember that this is the internet. You've seen people who, no matter how many times they're warned, will keep making accusations against other users/generally being an unpleasant fellow around these parts, no matter how many times they're warned, yes?
Why are you assuming that the minority is entirely made up of people who have been wronged by the mods?
That is why we give 7 chances. Don't think I'm trying to push you, or anyone else, off either. I completely understand where you are coming from as we've had this discussion internally before we could even think about launching the new penalty system and updated rules (which has been months now). We just feel that we do give chances, 8 of them, and those who can not hold it together for The Escapist to have to tell someone 8 times that isn't how you behave is more than enough.
My problem with that is I've had half of those chances skipped over. I'm in the yellow and I've only ever had one post break the rules. Never got any warnings, it was straight to probation the first time. So now anything I do is automatically a suspension, and even though that was quite a long time ago I'm 3 away from a permanent ban.
You aren't addressing the main issue of the punishment system. You're asking us to slip as little as possible, but, being human, it's going to happen. You're also stating that, if we slip up eight times, it's going to result in a permaban. This is where I feel that the system wouldn't work. While there are a few individuals who would be able to keep that by only posting maybe once or twice a week and stating something about a game or two, this essentially puts a lifetime limit on a particular account.
I'm sorry, mate. I understand that you're looking at a rewards system down the road if we play nice, but you really need to consider bringing such a system in sooner rather than later.
Actually, there are members who have been here for years and have over 10,000 posts who don't have a single warning. Over 99% of the current posters don't have more than 2 warnings. It IS possible and should be if everyone respects everyone else. The problem comes in when people's attitudes get in their way and they get "mad". This is a text based forum, if something pisses you off that much, walk away. Even better, report, ignore and walk away for a bit. There is no reason someone should be warned 8 times to be respectful and not call others names. In a debate setting, you would be disqualified, in real life you could be arrested for verbal assault.
If people really want to be able to say whatever they want, in any way they want, there are a lot of places on the internet to do so.
These are exceptions, not the tendency, though, and you know it. People get angry and post things that wouldn't normally go there. Rationality doesn't come into play when people get angry enough. We're just not wired to work like that and people are going to make mistakes. Hell, people who frequent the R&P forums get warnings and suspensions fairly regularly, unless part of your goal is to filter out all but the maybe 3 people that frequent there that seem to be fine.
That specific area of this forum tends to inflame people more than any other part and, because of this, we are constantly getting new blood because of this.
I'm not saying that the record needs to be eliminated; far from it, actually. I'm saying that the frequency and the severity of the infractions needs to be taken into account when we're talking about punishment, otherwise you're asking people to be unrealistically saintly or quiet.
99% of the posters with less than 2 warnings is not an exception, it's the overwhelming majority. However, I'm not saying we won't implement a system to get strikes back. What I am saying is people need to hold themselves accountable for what they say and how they say it, regardless of who they may be. That isn't asking too much.
Ehhh...looking at the R&P forums, which is about where I live here, I can honestly say that this may be true for, say Off-topic, but I haven't observed that for those forums. With the exception of... maybe three people off the top of my head, everyone there has had at least a probation in the past.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't be held accountable. I'm saying that timeframe needs to be taken into account as well, especially considering some of the... heated debates that show up around some sections of the forums.
I'll tell you what. Write up what you would like to see and I'll take a look at it (via PM please). I'm not saying things will change but I'd be happy to take it into consideration. From there, I can always bring into future meetings. Does that work for you?
This whole strikes system seems a bit impractical. If someone gets misunderstood as being offensive over the course of their stay here, which may be for several years, they can get put in lower standing with the mods? That's hardly fair. Also, does this apply retroactively? I got myself banned in the first few days of being here before I realized I needed to tone it down...
I always thought that the rules were pretty straight forward and easy to follow, hence my perfect record so far. I doubt this will effect me, but I could see some otherwise kind individuals being punished unfairly.
I think I'm one step away from a ban, but the garish people I raged at seem to have left, so I've calmed. I don't want to get banned for a silly thing months after my last infraction.
As of right now, we have implemented a new system due to community feedback and to continually make these forums a better place. From now on, every 6 months a strike will be taken off your forum health meter for good behavior (meaning you have no infractions). After 2 years of no infractions, your infractions will be completely cleared.
Please note, this does not mean that every 6 months you can afford an infraction. If we see that you are playing the system, our moderators will hold you accountable.
You will see these changes taking place over the next 24 hours for those of your with no infractions over the last 6 months or 2 years.
[Update: The changes are already in place, and have run for the first time. -Virgil]
I hope you guys understand just how many people on this site advocate gay marriage. Err, not myself, of course, wouldn't want to get banned. *shifty eyes* You might need to ban about 80% of the people I see posting in religion in politics though if you don't write in an exception, just something to consider. If it takes your fancy.
Also, remember that this is the internet. You've seen people who, no matter how many times they're warned, will keep making accusations against other users/generally being an unpleasant fellow around these parts, no matter how many times they're warned, yes?
Why are you assuming that the minority is entirely made up of people who have been wronged by the mods?
Edited my post, because as you so kindly pointed out, I misread "partly".
(I've been doing a major assignment all day, and before that I had 6 hours in a row of uni. Please don't think I'm making up an excuse to get out of this, because I take full responsibility for what I posted. I'm merely providing backstory for my mistake, and I apologise for accidentally taking what you said out of context.)
Nonetheless, the appeal process is there for a reason. Those who have gotten to the point of perma-ban have had plenty of previous infractions to appeal against the oncoming ban, but didn't take the chance.
If someone has no idea why they recieved negative action against one or many of their posts, what is the harm in at least messaging a moderator, and asking what happened?
I hope you guys understand just how many people on this site advocate gay marriage. Err, not myself, of course, wouldn't want to get banned. *shifty eyes* You might need to ban about 80% of the people I see posting in religion in politics though if you don't write in an exception, just something to consider. If it takes your fancy.
The new system is horrible.
Honestly, I can't see it lasting long if innocent people are getting suspentions/bans for things they may have done years ago.
I've been giving, what I beleive to be unfair warnings in the past, I don't like them being with me forever when I've done nothing wrong since :/
As of right now, we have implemented a new system due to community feedback and to continually make these forums a better place. From now on, every 6 months a strike will be taken off your forum health meter for good behavior (meaning you have no infractions). After 2 years of no infractions, your infractions will be completely cleared.
Please note, this does not mean that every 6 months you can afford an infraction. If we see that you are playing the system, our moderators will hold you accountable.
You will see these changes taking place over the next 24 hours for those of your with no infractions over the last 6 months or 2 years.
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