Poll: NYTimes covers sexual harassment in the gamer community

[Noetherian]

I really don't think you have an argument... what you think is some huge controversy is honestly more of a hot topic of the month... I would highly disagree with you that harassment is a major problem nor is it somehow making the medium of the video game industry illegitimate. ... Cause here is the hard truth, be you man or woman, it matters not the barrier of entry is equal to all. ... Because most of the harassment and specifically the harassment we are talking about are just basic insults.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree. While the issue may have been gaining more attention in larger media circles over the past few months, it's been around for years if not decades. I think the evidence is overwhelming that the barrier to entry for women is higher than for men in many areas of gaming, and yes, I do think that's doing harm to the industry and to the public image of everyone who identifies with videogames. I think change is required, and I find it difficult to understand why you continually shift all of the responsibility for creating that change onto the people who are the targets of harassment. Muting is great, but it's only part of a solution. I also wouldn't categorize sexual harassment as basic insults, which leads me to believe there's still some miscommunication.

I understand where you're coming from about people's opinions of one another being different, but there's a line between getting along/not getting along and whether or not someone is guilty of harassment. Yes, the players who attack women and others are human beings who no doubt have friends, but they're giving up the privilege to be part of that specific community when they do something that crosses that line. (Besides, nobody's talking about banning them from playing the game locally. In fact, I know the ExtraCredits guys' proposal included an option for friends of a muted player to opt-in to hearing the audio, etc.) I have a feeling you're trying to address more general issues than the egregious ones under discussion here. I'm not asking to fix human nature or prevent people from ever engaging in trash-talk; I do plenty of it when I'm playing with friends. What I would like to see is people being held accountable for going far, far beyond friendly (if harsh) banter to the point of harassment, and, better yet, for a quick, lasting, dramatic decrease in those behaviors.

 

[Aeonknight]

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I'm going to go with the "your mileage may vary" card in this case. If the example you cited is in fact legit, then it's a rare instance at best. Besides, I could easily cite a few of my experiences with Live or PSN. Know what it consists of? A whole lot of nothing. Hardly anyone uses mics anymore, even on games where communication is encouraged. Why? Because your average joe isn't the jackass you saw on youtube. If I wanted I could go find a few vids of youtube of some grade A TF2 trolling/harassment, but my prior statement discredits it because again: your mileage may vary. It's a case by case basis, and no one remembers the quiet ones.

Also: you can never have enough pony sprays =P

snip

And as for you, you're reading a little too far into this if you think the porn sprays bother me. I personally could care less, but at the end of the day that doesn't make it any less than what it is: sexual harassment. Go ask your HR person at work if you need any further proof of that.

Also, the excuse of "meh you were just looking for trouble cause you didn't bother to find a server with responsible mods" sounds a hell of alot like blaming the victim and intentionally burying your head in the sand on the issue. Moderating capabilities on the PC be damned, the fact that you have to search out a decent server is no different than having to leave a CoD lobby to find one with nothing but mutes in it.

It is kinda weird to find you saying the same thing as me by the end of your response though. I advocated the mute function as being just as effective as a Banhammer from the harassed individual's point of view, but the Banstick doesn't mean the prick just up and stopped existing. That's the point I've been trying to express.

And to rephrase said point, it goes like this:
There are idiots across all platforms that do this. They're hardly a majority, but they're there. A ban option for PC or a mute option for console doesn't make one better than the other, both communities are in the same boat when it comes to this problem. The sooner the PC master race stops trying to distance itself from it by blaming consoles for it, the sooner they can stop being in denial about the damn problem and look to a solution. I recommend my suggestion on page 1 of this thread personally.

 

[Thoric485]

Also, the excuse of "meh you were just looking for trouble cause you didn't bother to find a server with responsible mods" sounds a hell of alot like blaming the victim and intentionally burying your head in the sand on the issue. Moderating capabilities on the PC be damned, the fact that you have to search out a decent server is no different than having to leave a CoD lobby to find one with nothing but mutes in it.

Nope. Once you find a couple of decent servers, you're set. With lobbies you're rolling the dice every time. The mute function is not as effective as a ban, because it doesn't affect the offender, and there is a difference when penalties have to be dished out by some Microsoft employee who has little bearing on the situation, and by the person who's there cosntantly, trying to provide a good place for people to play and paying for it out of pocket.

There are idiots across all platforms that do this. They're hardly a majority, but they're there. A ban option for PC or a mute option for console doesn't make one better than the other, both communities are in the same boat when it comes to this problem. The sooner the PC master race stops trying to distance itself from it by blaming consoles for it, the sooner they can stop being in denial about the damn problem and look to a solution. I recommend my suggestion on page 1 of this thread personally.

Nobody has brought in platform favoritism into this, except you. You keep misinterpreting the fact that PC multiplayer is a more closely regulated environment, as an implication that there's less assholes playing PC games than console games. There are not, hell I'd say there are more - hackers, exploiters, spammers or simply jerks, take your pick. That's why there are so many tools to deal with them, and every serious server uses them.

The only difference between the platforms is that people who want to dedicate their time and resources to providing a clean multiplayer environment can do so on PC, but on consoles their hands are tied behind their back for the sake of accessibility.

This a great opportunity for console players to push for dedicated servers in more games, yet they seem more content with lifting their hands in the air, expecting harassers to suddenly grow a conscience, or Microsoft to whip out a magical solution for them.

 

[Aeonknight]

snip

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if you can give a proverbial slap on the wrist to a troll, who gives a shit? The troll certainly doesn't. I hardly consider a ban to be adequate "punishment" for someone being a prick. He'll just flock to another server where people will put up with or even join in on his antics. There's plenty of them.

Any tools a dedicated server has is reactionary. They do nothing to prevent harassment, they only help you deal with it. Well it's just as easier (probably easier) to mute someone in a CoD lobby as it is to bug an admin to ban this player for being a douche, and hope the admin gives a shit enough to listen to your complaint. But by then you've already been harassed and are now focused on some petty little vengeance, and by the time it's acted on the troll has probably already forgotten the lulz.

So again. Banhammering them does not deter them or impede them in any way. So how exactly are these effective tools for preventing harassment in the first place? Let me answer that for you:

They're not.

So like I said earlier, take away anonymity and make the prick accountable for what he says. They'll be real quiet after that, but that's a hefty price for everyone to pay.

 

[Lieju]

It easier to be a bloke gamer, I know. I've experienced it, pretending to be a guy does make it easier so I don't blame any girls who do.

I'm female, but I don't usually mention it, because it's not important.
So people online usually assume I'm male.

A lot of female gamers are 'invisible' like that. Sometimes I think I should be more vocal about my sex, but it shouldn't matter.

 

[Thoric485]

snip

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if you can give a proverbial slap on the wrist to a troll, who gives a shit? The troll certainly doesn't. I hardly consider a ban to be adequate "punishment" for someone being a prick. He'll just flock to another server where people will put up with or even join in on his antics. There's plenty of them.

Any tools a dedicated server has is reactionary. They do nothing to prevent harassment, they only help you deal with it. Well it's just as easier (probably easier) to mute someone in a CoD lobby as it is to bug an admin to ban this player for being a douche, and hope the admin gives a shit enough to listen to your complaint. But by then you've already been harassed and are now focused on some petty little vengeance, and by the time it's acted on the troll has probably already forgotten the lulz.

So again. Banhammering them does not deter them or impede them in any way. So how exactly are these effective tools for preventing harassment in the first place? Let me answer that for you:

They're not.

So like I said earlier, take away anonymity and make the prick accountable for what he says. They'll be real quiet after that, but that's a hefty price for everyone to pay.

The argument is not muting vs. banning, you still have access to that as a player on a dedicated server. It's banning by Microsoft vs banning by server admin, and the latter is way more faster and severe.

Unless you've received offending messages through Live, or the one you're reporting has an offensive tag, Microsoft won't do shit. As far as they know you're setting him up because he killed you five times. While an admin not only has access to server logs, but the more established places have staff lurking at least at peak times, and reacting immediately to offenders.

You can't tell me that doesn't deter people from attempting shit. I know it does because the only time I've had to constantly mute people was when playing MW2. Made me realize what all the boycotting was about.

And are you sure having their name out there would stop these people? Because I doubt anyone here would use facebook if it didn't have privacy settings.

 

[Shpongled]

snip

.....
Also, the excuse of "meh you were just looking for trouble cause you didn't bother to find a server with responsible mods" sounds a hell of alot like blaming the victim and intentionally burying your head in the sand on the issue. Moderating capabilities on the PC be damned, the fact that you have to search out a decent server is no different than having to leave a CoD lobby to find one with nothing but mutes in it.

It's not really the same at all because when you find that good server to play on, you can play on that one and only server for the rest of your life, thus never encountering harassment again. You'll probably find most PC gamers will have just a few couple of servers on which they play the vast majority of the time. With xbox live games you have a completely new group of fucktards to mute everytime you press the matchmaking button.

It's pretty hard to avoid the fact that dedicated servers with effective moderation done by the private individuals/groups hosting the server leads to much nicer communities. It's not about the "PC master race" that you seem so intent on strawmanning into this discussion, yes, there are fucktards everywhere, dedicated servers just provide a much better means for dealing with them than the xbox live system can ever realistically provide.

 

[Megacherv]

Who is we?

And more importantly, why does my "we" even include some weird fighting game tournament perverts and a few "trolls" who got entirely too butthurt over someone running a small time con on kickstarter.

I don't even know or care about any of these people.

'We' being gamers. The issue might not affect you directly, it's still something that affects your world, or in this case, your pastime. It's like straight people helping campaign for LGBT rights and treatment, sure they're not affected directly but they clearly want to see a better treatment for everyone in their community.

 

[Phasmal]

Ok, that is perfectly understandable.

I used to have this "friend" who always complained getting bad treatment in ALL games, FPSs and the like. I asked her if she used a mic, she said no. I asked if she was flaunting in any way, she said no. So one time when I played with her, I saw the truth of things when she did start flaunting for attention, with a suggestive username and lots of "Ha! Got beaten by a girl." type of stuff. She went along with all the nice comments and offers of stuff, but immidiately when someone said something negative, she went defensive.

So after the game I asked what this was all about, she asked me something along the lines of "You want me to pretend to be a man?! Huh?". Because of this, I have this little unfair seed of doubt when ever women cry this stuff out. But I know she must have been the very small minority.

I use mic, but I never say `beaten by a girl` for this reason: why would I?
Am I saying it is more unlikely or more shameful to be beaten by a girl? Fuck that noise.
I did have a bad experience once on a game when a guy found out I was a girl when I used a mic and then followed me from game to game telling people I was a girl `U just got sniped by a girl! Did U know phas is a girl? PICS` Fuckin' annoying

I literally dont see being a girl as a big thing, especially because before I discovered online gaming I had no idea gaming was ` a guy thing`, so I really wish it was never an issue.

It easier to be a bloke gamer, I know. I've experienced it, pretending to be a guy does make it easier so I don't blame any girls who do.

I'm female, but I don't usually mention it, because it's not important.
So people online usually assume I'm male.

A lot of female gamers are 'invisible' like that. Sometimes I think I should be more vocal about my sex, but it shouldn't matter.

Yeah, you do get auto-penis'd on the internet, and if some ladies wanna use that to avoid the `OMG U A GIRL?` shit, then honestly who could blame them?

 

[A Weakgeek]

Ok, that is perfectly understandable.

I used to have this "friend" who always complained getting bad treatment in ALL games, FPSs and the like. I asked her if she used a mic, she said no. I asked if she was flaunting in any way, she said no. So one time when I played with her, I saw the truth of things when she did start flaunting for attention, with a suggestive username and lots of "Ha! Got beaten by a girl." type of stuff. She went along with all the nice comments and offers of stuff, but immidiately when someone said something negative, she went defensive.

So after the game I asked what this was all about, she asked me something along the lines of "You want me to pretend to be a man?! Huh?". Because of this, I have this little unfair seed of doubt when ever women cry this stuff out. But I know she must have been the very small minority.

I use mic, but I never say `beaten by a girl` for this reason: why would I?
Am I saying it is more unlikely or more shameful to be beaten by a girl? Fuck that noise.
I did have a bad experience once on a game when a guy found out I was a girl when I used a mic and then followed me from game to game telling people I was a girl `U just got sniped by a girl! Did U know phas is a girl? PICS` Fuckin' annoying

I literally dont see being a girl as a big thing, especially because before I discovered online gaming I had no idea gaming was ` a guy thing`, so I really wish it was never an issue.

Yup, I agree. She probably didn't even think that, she just wanted attention.

Also someone started stalking you? That is some creepy stuff.

 

[teebeeohh]

nice article but all the hate doesn't change the fact that Ms Sarkeesian creates content that is not really good, has a one track mind when i comes to women in videogames (as basically if you had a great female character she would rant about the boob armor for an hour) oh and she went to 4chan looking for trolls. crying wolf and all that.

 

[Treblaine]

It seems the issue is less "sexism in gaming community" and more "sexism in the 360 community"

To be fair, to New York Time users they may not even realise you can get games on PC

"but PC is for facebook, and I don't have a PC, I have a mac"

What would that look like here, though? Simply not using your mic if you're female or have an accent turns mic use into a privilege reserved for the sources of harassment.

I assume you have never heard of "wu wei".
"The hard and strong will fall. The soft and weak will overcome."? Tao Te Ching, by Lao Tzu?

So your argument is when black people used "non-action" in Alabama they stopped identifying themselves as blacks/turned white? No. That is not the principle of "non-action".

They simply crippled the local economy by doing nothing. The police had batons and guns, but the protestants did not want confrontation.

Hmm, that sounds like a Boycott... that doesn't work too well for video games.

Though I do boycott all multiplayer for console games by how awful the experience is, multiplayer only on PC, so that's gravy.

Frankly there are good pubs and pad pubs, both the pubs that serve drinks and pub(lic servers) they have bouncers/mods to keep out the type they don't like. And all - with very few exceptions - kick out the loud mouth jerks who verbally harass other patrons.

Can't do this on consoles where every game is a quasi-random assortment on temporary basis, it's not clear who is in charge of this "place" to decide who is out of order and needs to step outside, a place can't get a reputation for clearing out riff-raff as no server lasts longer than about 10 minutes, each is created on a user console as the game begins.

I think it's very effective to reach out to the proprietors of servers to implore them to hold good standards and police them. They can do it remotely and don't even have to do it live, scrolling through recordings of what was said and typed and what sprays used.

 

[ElPatron]

Hmm, that sounds like a Boycott... that doesn't work too well for video games.

I did not say that games (or even the mic function) should be boycotted. I just think that we should boycott jerks.

People do bad things (that they know that are bad) if they have an audience and pressure. If a lot of people on the internet have a certain degree of anonymity, an audience and a wish to be considered a "badass" they will become jerks.

I think it's a situation comparable to smoking. We educate our kids, there is plenty of information available about the hazards of smoking - specially during childhood - but we still have a lot of kids who smoke.

 

[Phlakes]

I hope this keeps going. Gamers and probably the whole internet itself need a bit of a reality check, and there aren't many better ways than for the rest of the world to see how it all.

 

[Treblaine]

Hmm, that sounds like a Boycott... that doesn't work too well for video games.

I did not say that games (or even the mic function) should be boycotted. I just think that we should boycott jerks.

People do bad things (that they know that are bad) if they have an audience and pressure. If a lot of people on the internet have a certain degree of anonymity, an audience and a wish to be considered a "badass" they will become jerks.

I think it's a situation comparable to smoking. We educate our kids, there is plenty of information available about the hazards of smoking - specially during childhood - but we still have a lot of kids who smoke.

Well then in the essential way this Boycott doesn't work. As they don't know if mics are muted or not and they are always able to get a few vile words in.

An for many games this doesn't work like in the lobby you can't mute anyone, you have to wait till you join the game. And what if you are really into the game and enjoying yourself when the hate comes in. Run and

This isn't "boycotting the jerks" any more than plugging in your headphones is a good way for a kid dealing with bullying in school.

Don't bring smoking in because nicotine in cigarettes is addictive, being a jerk is not.

 

[ElPatron]

Well then in the essential way this Boycott doesn't work. As they don't know if mics are muted or not and they are always able to get a few vile words in.

1. If everyone starts muting/not replying, they will eventually figure out that people are not getting hurt.

2. You assume that online verbal abuse and real life bullying are the same. However, I did avoid some bullying by ignoring taunts and provocations.

Don't bring smoking in because nicotine in cigarettes is addictive, being a jerk is not.

1. Are you addicted to nicotine before you start hanging near smokers?

2. Old habits die hard. Something does not require physical addiction to be hard to leave behind.

3. The way the teenage mind works forces them to get attention from their peers. If someone's only way of having social interaction is XBL, then the verbal abuse is almost an addiction.

 

[Mavinchious Maximus]

Who is we?

And more importantly, why does my "we" even include some weird fighting game tournament perverts and a few "trolls" who got entirely too butthurt over someone running a small time con on kickstarter.

I don't even know or care about any of these people.

You went into my mouth and stole those words you bastard!

I really don't see the point of huddling us all into a pot with fighting game tournament weirdos and immature kids on Xbox live.

 

[Treblaine]

Well then in the essential way this Boycott doesn't work. As they don't know if mics are muted or not and they are always able to get a few vile words in.

1. If everyone starts muting/not replying, they will eventually figure out that people are not getting hurt.

2. You assume that online verbal abuse and real life bullying are the same. However, I did avoid some bullying by ignoring taunts and provocations.

Don't bring smoking in because nicotine in cigarettes is addictive, being a jerk is not.

1. Are you addicted to nicotine before you start hanging near smokers?

2. Old habits die hard. Something does not require physical addiction to be hard to leave behind.

3. The way the teenage mind works forces them to get attention from their peers. If someone's only way of having social interaction is XBL, then the verbal abuse is almost an addiction.

I just ignored bullies and never spoke back. They never thought they weren't intimidating, it only ended when I left school.

Yes, bullying is actually very similar but not identical of course. Why focus on trivial differences and ignore the important similarities?

PS: the only relevant point is people START smoking out of peer pressure but it only continues because of nicotine's addictive properties.