Poll: Origin - Spyware or not?

[ph0b0s123]

Origin is no different than Steam. Steam just a) has been around longer so people have gotten used to it, and b) is from Valve, which apparently makes up for all sorts of sins. I swear there are a decent chunk of PC gamers that would condone murder if it turned out that Gabe Newell did it. Hell, there was even an article <a href=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_245/7285-Steam-A-Monopoly-In-the-Making> here on the Escapist about Valve and their attempt to monopolize the PC gaming industry. Origin is simply the first real effort to break Valve's stranglehold on the gaming market.

Is it spyware? Maybe, but no worse than existing software. In my view you can either be for both Steam and Origin or against them both. To be for one and against the other is, to me, hypocrisy of the highest order.

And for the record I resent both systems for attempting to force themselves on my gaming habits.

Did you not read the orginal post of the poll that explains, again, that Origin is not the same as Steam as the collection is not OPTIONAL (don't know how may times I have had to repeat this about steam in these topics).

Or the part where I explained that I would prefer to use neither system so not an steam fanboy. But as I person that dislikes forced digital clients, Origin is worse. But sure carry on with your partly un-informed rant.

Thank you for the condescending reply. I would like to point out that I did read your original post, and I was simply disagreeing with you. As I understand it, Steam's optional opt-out policy only stops Valve distributing the information garnered by Steam to third parties; it doesn't stop Steam gathering user info for Valve. Which puts Steam and Origin back into the same boat. But sure carry on with your superior attitude towards legitimate counter arguments.

The opt out policy allows you to control whether the software and hardware data collected by the Steam client is sent to Valve in the first place. It has nothing to do with whether valve can resell the info or not. With Origin you have no option but to provide this data to EA. That's the difference. Wish I had some money for every time I have had to explain this....

I'm relatively sure that was only hardware dude. I'm not interested enough to actually go look it up, but i've seen that stated a few times.

Software survey is just as optional as the hardware survey. Just goes to show how uninformed people who's posts you read were.

 

[SinisterGehe]

Well according to Finnish customer rights law and Personal privacy laws, Origin is illegal in Finland... I mean like, so illegal that Origin users could sue EA.

Even if it is optional to give out data of what softwares you use... Etc... That the ToS specify, it is illegal to use, specially for commercial purposes. I confirmed this from Finnish customer rights bureau and they are filing a official complaint to EA and to Police. This probably wont lead to anything expect EA changing some minor details in ToS.

But if you think EA been spying your actions via Origin and you live in Finland. You can file a complaint and EA's Finnish branch needs to pay fines for breaking the law.

Since according to Finnish law, there is a segment that states that agreements/deals/contract can not allow the use, can not force either party or demand user to do anything that is against the Finnish law. Even if it is optional.

 

[ph0b0s123]

No, no its not and wish people would stop bitching about it since it is only as invasive as steam (it is semi optional but that doesn't change the fact that valve obviously wants large amounts of info that they have no right to have, and could only conceivable be used as an excuse to sue someone because the scan showed they have limewire installed)also remember steam also has the "we can take away all your games and any time for reasons we don't need to tell you" clause.

Longest sentence ever. Also how can Valve find out you are running limewire if you never accept passing your software details to them in the software surveys they run? Obviously this is completely possible if you are running Origin. Why does this difference not seem to compute with people?

I don't care that EA wants a digital platform like Steam. I think it is a good idea. Using that as an excuse to 'info rape' your system. No not on. Stop that and then me and Origin are fine.

 

[sifffffff]

Yes, of course it is.

That should be obvious to anyone who read the EULA.

And no, the revisions they made to not fix it.

Could you please cite these revisions here so people can see what you're talking about? From what I understand the revisions did actually fix the issue but people are having a hard time getting past the whole "EA is the devil" attitude to see the facts.

 

[Normandyfoxtrot]

/snip

I'm sorry, but do you ever even glance at the snippets of Steam and Origin EULA? I'm pretty sure several of us have posted the part about the fact that just like Origin, Steam will collect and report information back to Valve, your only option is weather you want Time Warner to get it or not.

 

[ph0b0s123]

Origin is no different than Steam. Steam just a) has been around longer so people have gotten used to it, and b) is from Valve, which apparently makes up for all sorts of sins. I swear there are a decent chunk of PC gamers that would condone murder if it turned out that Gabe Newell did it. Hell, there was even an article <a href=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_245/7285-Steam-A-Monopoly-In-the-Making> here on the Escapist about Valve and their attempt to monopolize the PC gaming industry. Origin is simply the first real effort to break Valve's stranglehold on the gaming market.

Is it spyware? Maybe, but no worse than existing software. In my view you can either be for both Steam and Origin or against them both. To be for one and against the other is, to me, hypocrisy of the highest order.

And for the record I resent both systems for attempting to force themselves on my gaming habits.

Did you not read the orginal post of the poll that explains, again, that Origin is not the same as Steam as the collection is not OPTIONAL (don't know how may times I have had to repeat this about steam in these topics).

Or the part where I explained that I would prefer to use neither system so not an steam fanboy. But as I person that dislikes forced digital clients, Origin is worse. But sure carry on with your partly un-informed rant.

Thank you for the condescending reply. I would like to point out that I did read your original post, and I was simply disagreeing with you. As I understand it, Steam's optional opt-out policy only stops Valve distributing the information garnered by Steam to third parties; it doesn't stop Steam gathering user info for Valve. Which puts Steam and Origin back into the same boat. But sure carry on with your superior attitude towards legitimate counter arguments.

The opt out policy allows you to control whether the software and hardware data collected by the Steam client is sent to Valve in the first place. It has nothing to do with whether valve can resell the info or not. With Origin you have no option but to provide this data to EA. That's the difference. Wish I had some money for every time I have had to explain this....

From Steam and Valve's legal section:

By using Valve's online sites and products, users agree that Valve may collect aggregate information, individual information, and personally identifiable information, as defined below. Valve may share aggregate information and individual information with other parties. Valve shall not share personally identifiable information with other parties, except as described in the policy below.

"Aggregate information" is information that describes the habits, usage patterns, and demographics of users as a group but does not describe or reveal the identity of any particular user.

"Individual information" is information about a user that is presented in a form distinguishable from information relating to other users but not in a form that personally identifies any user or enables the recipient to communicate directly with any user unless agreed to by the user in advance of such communication. This information may be used to improve Valve's products and online sites, for internal marketing studies, or simply to collect demographic information about Valve's users.

Valve may use customer contact information provided by users to send information about Valve, including news about product updates, contests, events, and other promotional materials, but only if the users agree to receive such communications. Except in the cases described below, Valve will not share personally identifiable information with any third party unless the user agrees to such disclosure in advance. "Personally identifiable information" consists of a user's name, email address, physical address, or other data about the user that enables the recipient to personally identify the user. While Valve collects personally identifiable information on a voluntary basis, for certain products and online sites, Valve's collection of personally identifiable information may be a requirement for access to the product or site. Personally identifiable information will be processed and stored by Valve in databases situated in the United States. Valve may allow third parties performing services under contract with Valve to access stored information but such access shall only be to the extent necessary to provide those services. In those instances, the third party will be bound by the terms of this privacy policy. In some situations, personally identifiable information you input in connection with Steam may be made available to other users of Steam. For example, during registration of Steam, Valve collects a user's email address and nickname, and at the user's option, first and last name. Some of this information is searchable and available to other users within Steam. Valve has no obligation to keep the privacy of personally identifiable information that a user makes available to other users via Steam or other Valve software, such as in multiplayer or other public functions.

Personally identifiable information protected under this privacy policy and collected from users may be done in conjunction with associates under agreement with Valve. If an associate of Valve is collecting such personally identifiable information within one of our products or online sites, Valve will make users aware of this at the time the information is gathered. For example, product registration data for Half-Life is collected by Sierra Entertainment. If a user does not want to provide this information, the user may choose to opt out of providing this information. Additionally, if providing the information is a requirement of usage, the user may decline to use that particular service or product. When possible, Valve will make a reasonable effort to direct users to the privacy polices of these associates. Valve's privacy policy does not extend to associates of Valve.

Furthermore, external websites and companies with links to and from Valve's online sites and products may collect personal information about users. Valve's privacy policy does not extend to these external websites and companies. Please refer directly to these companies and websites regarding their privacy policies.

Valve may release personally identifiable information to comply with court orders or laws that require us to disclose such information

That makes it pretty clear that Steam does collect user info, even if the client 'opted out'. By opting out you stop Steam passing this info onto third parties and from it looking at personally identifiable data such as your name and address, but it doesn't stop it looking at your rig set-up, the websites you visit, or the programs you run.

From here: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey
"Steam Hardware & Software Survey: October 2011

Steam conducts a monthly survey to collect data about what kinds of computer hardware and software our customers are using. Participation in the survey is optional, and anonymous. The information gathered is incredibly helpful to us as we make decisions about what kinds of technology investments to make and products to offer."

People still don't seem to be able to work out that this is the main difference between Origin and Steam. The thing that most people including myself are complaining about. You make the argument that they are the same in how they treat the data they get from you, name, address, games you have brought etc. Fine, but unimportant as that was not the argument.

So let me spell it out one last time for the hard of hearing. EA can find out what software I am running on my PC and the state it is in using Origin. Valve cannot find out about what software I am running through Steam without my PERMISSION. Got it? Don't know why this is such a difficult concept to grasp...

 

[ph0b0s123]

/snip

I'm sorry, but do you ever even glance at the snippets of Steam and Origin EULA? I'm pretty sure several of us have posted the part about the fact that just like Origin, Steam will collect and report information back to Valve, your only option is weather you want Time Warner to get it or not.

Not in the EULA. It's right here: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey
"Steam Hardware & Software Survey: October 2011

Steam conducts a monthly survey to collect data about what kinds of computer hardware and software our customers are using. Participation in the survey is optional, and anonymous. The information gathered is incredibly helpful to us as we make decisions about what kinds of technology investments to make and products to offer."

The very first page you get sent to if you Google 'steam survey'. Very complicated.

 

[BabySinclair]

Looking at my rig is fine, it helps with making sure games run on a variety of rigs. The moment you start trying to collect info on what sites I visit and things I didn't fill into little boxes, you hit the Spyware territory. Looking over Steam's EULA, I see nothing about games installed (except for on Steam obviously), websites visited, and other uses of the computer. That and it specifically states that for a third party to get anything you, the user, has to allow it.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

>massive snip to save time and hassle<

From here: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey
"Steam Hardware & Software Survey: October 2011

Steam conducts a monthly survey to collect data about what kinds of computer hardware and software our customers are using. Participation in the survey is optional, and anonymous. The information gathered is incredibly helpful to us as we make decisions about what kinds of technology investments to make and products to offer."

People still don't seem to be able to work out that this is the main difference between Origin and Steam. The thing that most people including myself are complaining about. You make the argument that they are the same in how they treat the data they get from you, name, address, games you have brought etc. Fine, but unimportant as that was not the argument.

So let me spell it out one last time for the hard of hearing. EA can find out what software I am running on my PC and the state it is in using Origin. Valve cannot find out about what software I am running through Steam without my PERMISSION. Got it? Don't know why this is such a difficult concept to grasp...

Dude, I get what you're trying to say, but what I'm trying to get through to you is that Steam does collect information automatically from your machine just like Origin does. The optional 'please fill out at you own convenience' survey Valve puts out is their secondary means of info gathering. I fully understand you're pissed about EA looking at your systems specs without asking, but please understand that Valve does it too. Whether you like it or not, Steam does gather non personal information about your system and your habits, and it does pass those on to Valve. If you sign the opt-out waiver then Valve will not pass that info on to other companies, but that's it. The optional survey you brought up is really Valve's way of asking you to confirm what Steam has already told them.

 

[Something Amyss]

That makes it pretty clear that Steam does collect user info, even if the client 'opted out'. By opting out you stop Steam passing this info onto third parties and from it looking at personally identifiable data such as your name and address, but it doesn't stop it looking at your rig set-up, the websites you visit, or the programs you run.

Which is awesome, because Valve has convinced people that they have somehow opted out without actually opting out or arousing suspicion.

Well, awesome in a technical sense. Rather horrific, really.

Could you please cite these revisions here so people can see what you're talking about? From what I understand the revisions did actually fix the issue but people are having a hard time getting past the whole "EA is the devil" attitude to see the facts.

Actually, the revisions fixed it so it was basically like Steam. What people have a problem with isn't so much EA being the devil, as a blanket objection to such EULAs. The big problem comes in either from believing Valves is GOD, or failure to understand that they've already signed on and have been using a similar service for years.

People repeat the "opt out" line regarding Steam inaccurately like it was gospel. They seem to believe they can really take umbrage in that.

I mean, that's just my take on things, but I think it's less that "EA is the devil" and more that "Valve is a special snowflake."

Valve wouldn't do something so...Corporate....Even if they are.

 

[major_chaos]

No, no its not and wish people would stop bitching about it since it is only as invasive as steam (it is semi optional but that doesn't change the fact that valve obviously wants large amounts of info that they have no right to have, and could only conceivable be used as an excuse to sue someone because the scan showed they have limewire installed)also remember steam also has the "we can take away all your games and any time for reasons we don't need to tell you" clause.

Longest sentence ever. Also how can Valve find out you are running limewire if you never accept passing your software details to them in the software surveys they run? Obviously this is completely possible if you are running Origin. Why does this difference not seem to compute with people?

I don't care that EA wants a digital platform like Steam. I think it is a good idea. Using that as an excuse to 'info rape' your system. No not on. Stop that and then me and Origin are fine.

ah yes the "you grammar sucks so your argument is invalid" tactic. second my point wasn't that origin doesn't take info, its that I don't understand WHY valve needs the info they are so desperate to obtain or what they could possibly use it for. The other point was that I don't get what people are so worried about origin finding in their program data folder. and as others have pointed out but you are desperate to ignore is the fact that while the surveys are optional, the steam EULA is worded so that valve can access your info the same as origin but not share it. Do they use it this way? I don't know but it sure looks like they can. like I said in my first post my issue isn't that I like origin, my issue is that everyone and their dog is jumping on the "origin is spyware" bandwagon while singing the praises of the "true" DD platform, the great and perfect steam. the way I have always seen it is that valve is just as evil as E.A they just have a better PR team

 

[noahd]

ok, i'm just going to put this out there. there's a lot on steam that you don't get else where. from deals on games that no retail outlet or retail reseller offers to it's extent. there's a a few steam like, or offers retail games marked down but nothing quite like steam.

you'll probably save an upwards of 10-25% through steam. but if your the kinda guy that buys games just as they hit market, than it doesn't matter where you get yours from. all you would have to really worry about is taxes, shipping or no shipping, can you get some sorta store discount or is the store you're buying from charging you more than you would want the game for.

i could go down to the store and see many many of my games at retail stores that i got through steam... but not paying retail prices. and on top of that having steam update the games for me intead of having to worry about either loging into the games and check for updates, go to the games site and check for updates, run an update program before i play. and so the list continues...

origin is a faliure waiting to happen. origin happened because of a mutual understanding between legal buys of the game, 3rd party resellers like steam. not going along with constant bugging of ea. if it was as simple as updating or informing of updating. i would think more of it would be steam vs consumer rather than ea vs steam. ea has been going around wanting to get some of the old broken ways back in. plus new stuff, to be honest. half the time i don't care about these specialty networks like origin and bioware, and even to the extent of sony sometimes. everyone is creating their own network of working that doesn't work.

updates are updates, everyone who legally owns the games is intitled to them. they're going balistic over pirates to the point of pirates don't even want to bother with it. it's almost like one day it'll get to the point where you'll have to get an account with the game company or producer for every game you have showing proof of perchuse. and that you're not using it here here and here, but on one standalone computer.

here's my final say. if you don't like sometime like steam. don't buy from steam. if you don't like origin. don't buy games that are attached to origin. this either means you lose out on the game. or forced to console gaming. the user ultimately is control of what he does. and if you want want to talk about spyware. why don't you through game spy into your little rant. game spy has been around for a while now. and like many others. it's a bothersome tid bit.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

That makes it pretty clear that Steam does collect user info, even if the client 'opted out'. By opting out you stop Steam passing this info onto third parties and from it looking at personally identifiable data such as your name and address, but it doesn't stop it looking at your rig set-up, the websites you visit, or the programs you run.

Which is awesome, because Valve has convinced people that they have somehow opted out without actually opting out or arousing suspicion.

Well, awesome in a technical sense. Rather horrific, really.

It's a clever bit of legal jiggery-pokerey that causes all sorts of misunderstandings, not least of which is this current one with [user]ph0b0s123[/user] - but hats off to them for trying it the subtle way. Half of the companies out there just have a TOS agreement that rather brutally states if you don't fork over the goods you can't use the product you just legally bought.

 

[LorienvArden]

I don't care that EA wants a digital platform like Steam. I think it is a good idea. Using that as an excuse to 'info rape' your system. No not on. Stop that and then me and Origin are fine.

What I can gather from Casters like Total Biscuit, Origin works very well - as a means to provide access to digital copies of games. It runs smooth with very little resources and has remarkable features (BF3s system of having players join a server via URL for example)

The Spyware aspect of it is just useless BS that totally ruined an OK-Service.

 

[Normandyfoxtrot]

Like I said it's a EA product if they didn't have this perceived fault they'd find another hell if it was faultless they'd make some up.

 

[ph0b0s123]

-snip-

Longest sentence ever. Also how can Valve find out you are running limewire if you never accept passing your software details to them in the software surveys they run? Obviously this is completely possible if you are running Origin. Why does this difference not seem to compute with people?

I don't care that EA wants a digital platform like Steam. I think it is a good idea. Using that as an excuse to 'info rape' your system. No not on. Stop that and then me and Origin are fine.

ah yes the "you grammar sucks so your argument is invalid" tactic. second my point wasn't that origin doesn't take info, its that I don't understand WHY valve needs the info they are so desperate to obtain or what they could possibly use it for. The other point was that I don't get what people are so worried about origin finding in their program data folder. and as others have pointed out but you are desperate to ignore is the fact that while the surveys are optional, the steam EULA is worded so that valve can access your info the same as origin but not share it. Do they use it this way? I don't know but it sure looks like they can. like I said in my first post my issue isn't that I like origin, my issue is that everyone and their dog is jumping on the "origin is spyware" bandwagon while singing the praises of the "true" DD platform, the great and perfect steam. the way I have always seen it is that valve is just as evil as E.A they just have a better PR team

I don't recall saying you did not have a point, it was purely an observation about the sentance I was quoting which I then went on to respond to, i.e treating it as a valid point. But sure get all bent out of shape over a perceived insult if you want.

The reason having details of the software someone using your clients is using, is that it allows them to know what software they should check future games against to make sure there are no conflicts. Unfortunately it is also info that 3rd parties would pay handsomely for.

Dude, I get what you're trying to say, but what I'm trying to get through to you is that Steam does collect information automatically from your machine just like Origin does. The optional 'please fill out at you own convenience' survey Valve puts out is their secondary means of info gathering. I fully understand you're pissed about EA looking at your systems specs without asking, but please understand that Valve does it too. Whether you like it or not, Steam does gather non personal information about your system and your habits, and it does pass those on to Valve. If you sign the opt-out waiver then Valve will not pass that info on to other companies, but that's it. The optional survey you brought up is really Valve's way of asking you to confirm what Steam has already told them.

Now both of you seem to be under the impression that Steam can send Valve the details of what software you are running without you expressly saying that they can. Can either of you provide me with proof of that? You can quote the EULA all you like but the fact is, the only way Valve can get all the details of all the software you are running on your machine, is through their Software survey.

There has been talk that when Steam crashes a bug report is automatically generated and sent to Valve. The bug report may well have in it details of the software you were running when Steam crashed, but that is not the same as a full readout of every piece of the software (with versions, mods, etc) that you have on your computer. I would like the sending of that bug report to be optional as well, in an ideal world, like it is in Windows. That's a battle for another day as you go after the bigger offenders first. Also obviously both services know what games you have brought from them.

So I would really like to know how you believe Valve is getting a report of all the software you have on your computer without your agreeing for the info to be sent as part of their automated software survey, which you can refuse to do. As until you can back up that accusation, the point of Steam being the same as Origin, in it's collection of software data, is not proven.

 

[ph0b0s123]

I don't care that EA wants a digital platform like Steam. I think it is a good idea. Using that as an excuse to 'info rape' your system. No not on. Stop that and then me and Origin are fine.

What I can gather from Casters like Total Biscuit, Origin works very well - as a means to provide access to digital copies of games. It runs smooth with very little resources and has remarkable features (BF3s system of having players join a server via URL for example)

The Spyware aspect of it is just useless BS that totally ruined an OK-Service.

I had not seen that many complains about the usability of Origin. If I did I would just point the complainers to GFWL so they could see how bad a service could be, from a usability point of view. Not looking forwards to Batman which will force GFWL. The last Batman game I had to start a few times, as GFWL kept rendering my save games unusable, because I reinstalled GFWL.

So it's really only the privacy issue that is keeping me away from Origin.

 

[dessertmonkeyjk]

This kind of feels like having this annoying purple gorilla known as BonziBUDDY [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3f9TF0IrO4] roaming around your PC while sending personal information out behind your back.