Poll: Philosophy in games

[000Ronald]

Philosophy threads just keep popping up on this website: I just responded to a rather irksome one and am already regretting it. There's a difference between thinking intelligently and thinking too much: nothing good comes from the latter.

Which brings up an interesting question; does philosophy have a place in gaming? Should a good game make you think about something, perhaps re-evaluate where you stand? Or is it completely a moot point, being as philosophy in and of itself is a moot point?

I don't know; I wouldn't be asking if I did. So...tell me what you think, in so many words.

And apologies to anyone offended by soon-too-be content on this thread. What I mean to do is make people think, and if you don't want to, I can't and won't force you to.

 

[Surggical_Scar]

I've started to accept philosophy in gaming, admittedly, there's not a whole lot in evidence of it, aside from Bioshock *is stoned to death* and the like, unless you really want to read into a game past what you can only presume the developers intended.

I'd definitely like to see more games with at least a philosophical stance, although I don't think I'd want to start getting into Niezche and Descarte's concepts of perception and the like.

As long as gameplay doesn't suffer, I wholeheartedly welcome philosophy in gaming. Actually, it'd be nice to see GTA or Saint's Row take that stance, after all, they give us morally ambiguous characters and situations, but tend not to delve into it any further than that.

*Gets out Meerchamp pipe and ponders*

 

[Axolotl]

I think that there should be philosophy in games, well some games not all games need or should have it. However I have yet to see any games have anything beyond the most basic ideas in them.

 

[Rosscifer]

I think that there should be philosophy in games, well some games not all games need or should have it. However I have yet to see any games have anything beyond the most basic ideas in them.

Planescape Torment and Bioshock come to mind as games that seriously include philosophical debates. Moral questions are central themes in many RPGs.

 

[Surggical_Scar]

I think that there should be philosophy in games, well some games not all games need or should have it. However I have yet to see any games have anything beyond the most basic ideas in them.

Planescape Torment and Bioshock come to mind as games that seriously include philosophical debates. Moral questions are central themes in many RPGs.

*Cough*Oblivion*Cough*

 

[sammyfreak]

I dont realy like the idea of to much Bioshock'ish philosophy in games. Its not realy that the philosophy drags the game down and since it is well incorporated with the plot it doesnt get in the way. But i dont want to ponder lifes mysteries while im beating up splicers or enjoying the atmosphere.

Its not that i dont enjoy philosophy, but i would rather se it in a movie or a book then in a game. Moral choices can be interesting, but for me they are part of the game/roleplay, not trying to obtain a profound revelation on the issue at hand.

Edit: I actualy think that Assassins Creed discusses religion and politics in interesting ways. The story itself is mostly about Altair wondering why he is killing these people and if it is he or them that are doing harm.

 

[Axolotl]

Planescape Torment and Bioshock come to mind as games that seriously include philosophical debates. Moral questions are central themes in many RPGs.

I've not played planescape and from what I've heard I'm dubious about trying it. But the only philosophical ideas I remember in Boshock was the morality of killing defensless small girls for cash, which isn't particularly deep or thought-provoking.

 

[sammyfreak]

Planescape Torment and Bioshock come to mind as games that seriously include philosophical debates. Moral questions are central themes in many RPGs.

I've not played planescape and from what I've heard I'm dubious about trying it. But the only philosophical ideas I remember in Boshock was the morality of killing defensless small girls for cash, which isn't particularly deep or thought-provoking.

I think the point was more along the lines of: Are they still humman? Are they monster enought to be "harvested"?

 

[Surggical_Scar]

^ Indeed, I think it was Ryan who said it wasn't wrong to harvest the Little Sisters, as they were technically no longer human, nor alive. 'Like taking a comatose patient off life support.'

 

[Axolotl]

^ Indeed, I think it was Ryan who said it wasn't wrong to harvest the Little Sisters, as they were technically no longer human, nor alive. 'Like taking a comatose patient off life support.'

Yes but he didn't know that they could be cured did he? For the protaganist it's like taking them of life support when he can bring them back to life. I'm not saying that Bioshock has no Philosophical ideas in it, I'm trying to say that if it's the best the games industry has to offer then it isn't a good sign for the industry.

 

[Singing Gremlin]

Planescape Torment and Bioshock come to mind as games that seriously include philosophical debates. Moral questions are central themes in many RPGs.

I've not played planescape and from what I've heard I'm dubious about trying it. But the only philosophical ideas I remember in Boshock was the morality of killing defensless small girls for cash, which isn't particularly deep or thought-provoking.

That is precisely why I think there should be philosophical. If you don't want to see the philosophy, you sail right past it. To see the deeper ideas of bioshock, you need to think. It displays the results of a world without morals, the mutations caused by the plasmids give an element of 'losing your humanity', you have to lose your humanity (become a big daddy) to do the right thing, or continue eating babies, whatever.

 

[REDPill357]

Atmospheric games like BioShock and Deus Ex can be helped by including philosophy, so you actually have to think.

But I don't want to ponder the way the world is run while playing Contra 4.

 

[yonsito]

I don't think that there is much in the way of philosophy in games. I'm not really bothered by that but the discussion is an interesting one.
Let's see:
Of all the branches of philosophy, most games include philosphical aspects in the form of ethics and moral choices. Bioshock and Planescape as well as a host of other games let the player make decisions that can be likened to "good" or "evil".
However, ethics as a philosophical discipline strives to develop a moral code, a rule set of "right" and "wrong". There is usually no such code or even the distinction between "right" and "wrong" in a game, it's just that different decisions lead to different outcomes. I'd like to call this approach "philosophy light", as the players do make ethical choices but entirely based on their individual moral code, whereas from a philosophical point of view the reasoning behind this code is the most interesting aspect.
(Come to think of it, KOTOR is a little more interesting as "jedi" and "sith" could be considered moral codes, but assigning deeper meaning to Star Wars always makes me queasy.)

I'm also not very happy about Bioshock being called a philosophical game. Ayn Rand sets the stage for Bioshock but you wouldn't call the game a discussion of her philosphy (it was never meant to be). You cannot say that her philosophy fails because Rapture fails and that a society based on her ideas will descend into nightmare world of genetic mutations.

On a related note, play Planescape. Not because it is terribly philosophical but because it is a deep and engrossing game experience. It is text heavy, though.

 

[ingsoc]

The more the better. Personally, I would not shed a tear of nonsensical waste of time games like Bully and Grand Theft Auto went the way of the dodo. But, we know it won't happen as that is what many people want to play. Games that make you think are a good thing. Bioshock does so at a fairly elementary level, you can't expect too much as they built the game for "consoletards" (thanks Yahtzee). We need more games like Half Life where philosophical discussion plays an important part of the story. Valve's use of catch phrases and analogues in reference to metaphysics create many intriguing metaphors that not only make for great cinematic game play but also make you think. The games most famous phrase, "unforeseen consequences", given the games story and the context of its use obvious refers to Robert Merton's Law of Unforeseen Consequences and consequentialism. Merton's work during the 1930s spawned an entire academic paradigm. This is but one example (there are many more in Half Life) to the integration of philosophy into games, and one most people may not even recognize. I like things that make me think, the use of thoughtful analogies and meaningful metaphors to convey ideas has been very successful in numerous works. Games such as Half Life, are reminiscent of the early works of George Romero. His zombie movies are really something else when you realize that they are not about zombies in any way.

 

[Axolotl]

the mutations caused by the plasmids give an element of 'losing your humanity', you have to lose your humanity (become a big daddy) to do the right thing, or continue eating babies, whatever.

But Bioshock doen't deal with the concepts, you vcan pump yourself full of as many plasmids as you want and your still loved by all the little sisters and accepted back into normal society in the end, even your transformation into a Big Daddy isn't permanent. Whilst the element of losing humanity with plasmids is mentioned or implied a couple of times, it's never related to you is always about the other inhabitents of rapture.

On a related note, play Planescape. Not because it is terribly philosophical but because it is a deep and engrossing game experience. It is text heavy, though.

Is it similar to Baldurs Gate?

 

[yonsito]

Is it similar to Baldurs Gate?

I'm hesitating to say yes. I'd say chances are that you like Planescape if you liked Baldur's Gate. It has the same game engine and plays similarly in a sense but the planescape setting is quite different. The story is vastly better but you have to read most of it on-screen. You have a lot of freedom in your actions. If you don't mind reading through a lot of (well written) dialog and enjoy a good story line then you should try it. It starts a little slowly but gets weirder by the minute.

 

[L.B. Jeffries]

The problem with philosophy in video games is that there isn't much philosophy in a game design that has clear winners, points, and high body counts. You're too busy shooting and fighting. You'd have to change both the player expectation (I want a game experience that makes me think) and find a way to deliver that beyond the current pre-conceptions that confine video games right now.

 

[yonsito]

the mutations caused by the plasmids give an element of 'losing your humanity', you have to lose your humanity (become a big daddy) to do the right thing, or continue eating babies, whatever.

But Bioshock doen't deal with the concepts, you vcan pump yourself full of as many plasmids as you want and your still loved by all the little sisters and accepted back into normal society in the end, even your transformation into a Big Daddy isn't permanent. Whilst the element of losing humanity with plasmids is mentioned or implied a couple of times, it's never related to you is always about the other inhabitents of rapture.

Agreed. You "do the right thing" in terms of story progression. Hardly an ethical choice, in fact no choice at all. And the concept of humanity in the game is of the "King of the jungle" -kind, common to most action games. "He, who kills all, saves humanity."
What remains is the moral choice between harvesting and saving, exploiting or nurturing, the moral dilemma brilliantly personified by the little zombie girls and the decision made better and worse by the fact that both options are almost equally rewarding.

 

[JakubK666]

Actually Bioshock had no philosophy in it.In fact if you calculate it, you were getting more Adam for saving Little Sisters then killing them. Where's the fucking philosophy there?

I'd rather have no reward( or hardly any) for saving a Little Sister.Would I kill that girl, sacrificing my emotions to become more powerful or let her be, sacrificing my power.

Having a little bit of Philosophy in games isn't a bad idea.I love Kreia's teachings in KOTOR2...especially this one time when I gave some spare credits to a beggar.

 

[Dectilon]

Actually Bioshock had no philosophy in it.In fact if you calculate it, you were getting more Adam for saving Little Sisters then killing them. Where's the fucking philosophy there?

I'd rather have no reward( or hardly any) for saving a Little Sister.Would I kill that girl, sacrificing my emotions to become more powerful or let her be, sacrificing my power.

Having a little bit of Philosophy in games isn't a bad idea.I love Kreia's teachings in KOTOR2...especially this one time when I gave some spare credits to a beggar.

You're saying you managed to miss the whole failed Atlas Shrugged state bit? : P

Obviously Philosophy in a game doesn't automatically make it a good game, but a game lacking a great story can never be a perfect game.