Poll: Piracy is legal

Joccaren

Elite Member
Mar 29, 2011
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BrassButtons said:
But if you don't pay them do YOU deserve the PRODUCT?
In some cases you won't want the product, and purchasing the product is gambling because you really don't know what its going to be like for you until you have tried it yourself - and when demos don't exist, the only way to try it for yourself is to have a friend that lets you, or pirate it, and sadly a lot of people don't have friends who own the games they want to try because those friends are in the same situation.
I'm not saying this makes piracy right in any way, its just that whilst you might not deserve the product, a lot of the time you won't want it and will just delete it anyway.

OT: The morality of Piracy for me is rather complex and based off what is being pirated, why and whether it is paid for afterwards or not, as well as the morality and opinion of the company selling the product [For example a company that nickel and dimes its customers out of every penny because it can, and then insists that piracy is a bad thing that's hurting its profits will get no sympathy from me, whilst I'm far more likely to side with a small company that doesn't make a lot of profit and would like people to stop pirating its product so that it can survive. I'm also more likely to side with a company that provides an adequate demo than one who doesn't, as they are trying to inform their customers and let them make a good purchase]. There are a lot of factors that go into whether I'd consider it OK or not, and there isn't really an easy answer. I'd have to consider it on a case by case basis TBH.
 

Entitled

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Aug 27, 2012
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Lonewolfm16 said:
Simply put if someone creates somthing they have the right to it.
And if that something is a piece of information, than what is "it" that they have a right to? for example, you say:

Lonewolfm16 said:
If someone labors to produce something, any form of art/entertainment media, then for one they should hold control over it until they willingly forfeit it, as surely as any physical property they labored to produce, and any who wish to enjoy their creation should be subject to their standards.
So, what if their standards include ignoring Fair Use? If Warner Brothers says that anyone who wishes to enjoy ANY content from the Harry Potter movies must pay for it, does that give them a right to persecute people for posting screenshots, videos, or quotes?

If EA says that you only have a right to play Dead Space 3 yourself, but not to resell it, or to borrow it to your friends, does that give them a right to write their own EULA and ban all of this?

If G.R.R. Martin says that his Song of Ice and Fire series should be own by his heirs and their heirs and then their heirs, for 300 years, should h be allowed to decide that?


Where are the limits of "it" that they should have control over?

Lonewolfm16 said:
And another important point is that pirates, by attempting to enjoy somthing, contribute to its destruction. If piracy is held as both morally and legally acceptable than those who would attempt to create these things for profit, the very things that the escapist is built around discussion of, would cease to do so.
Wrong, people stopping to pay for things would lead to their destruction.

Piracy is not the opposite of paying. People are able to set a fixed entertainment budget every month on supporting the best things that they want to see more of as much as they can afford, and then having fun with some more accessible stuff.

Also, publishers are able to shift to models that don't require direct payment for digital content, see music publishing and the increased reliance on concerts.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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Dec 11, 2012
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Lonewolfm16 said:
John Locke's philosophy was based around the idea of human rights and these included the right to property. Surely he of all people thought that the creator of a work should get his due from said work.
Yes, he did think that. That's why he was responsible for the reform of copyright law so that it vested in the creator instead of the publisher.

I'm really not sure what you're asking here.

PreviouslyPwned said:
Piracy is theft. It really is as simple as that.
Copyright infringement =/= theft.

CardinalPiggles said:
Is it morally ok to steal food you don't need?

Even better. Is it morally ok to steal food you don't need from someone who grew it themselves?
Copyright infringement =/= theft.

amaranth_dru said:
Did you pay to see a movie? Did you pay for the music you downloaded? Did you pay to play the game? If not then you're stealing.
Look. People. This isn't hard.

If copyright infringement was theft, why don't the police arrest people for using Bitorrent? Why is the matter left to civil claims filed by the RIAA and the MPAA?

If it was theft, it would be a crime and the police would be arresting people. Why doesn't that happen? Because copyright infringement isn't theft. It's copyright infringement. It is a totally different thing with a totally different definition and a totally different enforcement regime.

Saying that copyright infringement is theft because they're both bad is like saying that jaywalking is drink driving because they're both irresponsible. What? How? How do you people think the law works?
 

snake4769

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Feb 10, 2011
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BrassButtons said:
snake4769 said:
Yes, because more often than not, said company probably doesn't deserve the money. My latest purchase i wished i pirated was the shitshow known as Hitman: Absolution.
But if you don't pay them do YOU deserve the PRODUCT?
Stupid question, not really answerable.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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fapper plain said:
Nope.

I think the acquisition and distribution of information is cool and stuff.
creators need money for their work....
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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snake4769 said:
Yes, because more often than not, said company probably doesn't deserve the money. My latest purchase i wished i pirated was the shitshow known as Hitman: Absolution.
if ou dont belive the company is deserving of your money then dont get the product....stealing is childish and petty
 

BrassButtons

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Nov 17, 2009
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snake4769 said:
BrassButtons said:
snake4769 said:
Yes, because more often than not, said company probably doesn't deserve the money. My latest purchase i wished i pirated was the shitshow known as Hitman: Absolution.
But if you don't pay them do YOU deserve the PRODUCT?
Stupid question, not really answerable.
What makes it stupid? What makes it unanswerable?
 

Heronblade

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Apr 12, 2011
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BrassButtons said:
snake4769 said:
BrassButtons said:
snake4769 said:
Yes, because more often than not, said company probably doesn't deserve the money. My latest purchase i wished i pirated was the shitshow known as Hitman: Absolution.
But if you don't pay them do YOU deserve the PRODUCT?
Stupid question, not really answerable.
What makes it stupid? What makes it unanswerable?
Apparently he thinks everyone is entitled to copyrighted content by default, in spite of the vast amount of effort its creator puts into it.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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Sep 15, 2010
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**yawn**

Copyright infringement isn't theft.

Most piracy is no more amoral than watching Hulu or Youtube.

Edit: Sorry, needed to clarity something there. Pronouns are a *****.

**yawn**

Anyway... on a more important matter....

/人◕‿‿◕人\
 

bastardofmelbourne

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Dec 11, 2012
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General Twinkletoes said:
I don't think pirates are bad people, but that doesn't mean piracy isn't a morally wrong thing. Do you honestly see nothing wrong with it? Only a few providers are at risk of getting caught, everyone who doesn't pirate does it because they think it's morally right, not because they're afraid of getting punished.

Honestly, you see nothing morally wrong with piracy?
I think it's morally wrong on the same level that jaywalking is morally wrong. As in, not very.

The problem with talking about piracy as a moral question is that it opens up a whole bag of moral quandaries that you don't really need to address. Let's say copyright infringement is morally wrong in the basis that you are deriving the benefit of a creator's work without paying for it. Under that framework, I can think of a number of equally wrong but socially acceptable activities, such as;

- borrowing a book from a friend
- buying a used video game
- accepting a hand-me-down iPhone from a sibling
- reading a comic book or a magazine in the store
- watching a DVD of the Avengers at a friend's house
- listening to music played on your friend's music player
- watching a clip of a comedian's stand-up routine on Youtube

You can keep going. Under the moral framework for copyright infringement, literally any scenario where you obtain the benefit of a work - reading it, watching it, listening to it - without paying money to the artist is morally wrong. That's unworkable. There isn't a single human being in the first world who hasn't done one of those items on the list at some point in their lives. They're all about as malicious as eating the last slice of cake, or telling your girlfriend she doesn't look fat in those jeans.

Add that to the fact that, as I said, if you take a moral view of copyright law it's morally wrong to pay anyone other than the creator. How much of the money made from music and films goes to the creators and how much goes to the lobbyists and industry powerbrokers behind the MPAA and the RIAA? How much of the money made by sales of Batman comics goes to Bill Finger? If I buy a copy of the Hobbit, does the deceased Tolkien get the money? His descendants get the money - people who are passively deriving a benefit from their grandfather's achievements.

Once you apply a classical moral framework to copyright law, the whole structure collapses. If the point of copyright is to benefit the author, why does it persist past the author's death? Why is it possible to sell your copyright in a work?

So how do you answer those questions? You don't. Copyright infringement isn't illegal because it's morally wrong - it's illegal because the law says so. This might seem unjust, but it's what happens when powerful lobbyists use a shallow appeal to morality to justify expanding the scope and length of copyright far past the point of absurdity. Better to think of it as a legal question concerning legal rights and governed by legal principles. That way, at least it makes sense.

When you get down to it, the only time anyone is going to care about copyright infringement is when you're being sued for it. And when you get put in front of a judge, talking about morality isn't going to get you very far. The judge is sitting in front of a big book called The Law, and he wants to find out if what you did was illegal, not if it was wrong.
 

Entitled

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Aug 27, 2012
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Vault101 said:
fapper plain said:
Nope.

I think the acquisition and distribution of information is cool and stuff.
creators need money for their work....
Neither of these comments contradict the other one.

Distribution of information is cool, yet creators need money for their work.

Conclusion: We need to find a way that lets creators get payed for their work, without limiting the distribution of information.
 

Kargathia

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Jul 16, 2009
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chimpzy said:
Downloading that cd because you don't feel like buying it legitimately is technically still illegal, though you are unlikely to get into any trouble for it unless you start distributing it on a large scale or something like that.
Incorrect. Merely downloading copyrighted work is not illegal, as long as it's for personal use only. Exceptions are software and games, which are legal to download, but illegal to use.

This all is on the verge of being a technicality though, as the most common route to pirate material is p2p sharing, which automatically uploads - a definitely illegal activity.

I'm still curious about this whole soul-searching for the morality of piracy though. Why are we so caring about whether it's -wrong-? Even if it's wrong, why do we care so much? It's not like those precious souls of ours are spotless.
Hell, I know I personally already tick the checkboxes for having lied, stolen, cheated, destroyed/defaced property, slandered, and quite a few other wrong activities - and I'm generally considered rule-abiding to the point of being boring.
 

Lonewolfm16

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Feb 27, 2012
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Entitled said:
Lonewolfm16 said:
Simply put if someone creates somthing they have the right to it.
And if that something is a piece of information, than what is "it" that they have a right to? for example, you say:

Lonewolfm16 said:
If someone labors to produce something, any form of art/entertainment media, then for one they should hold control over it until they willingly forfeit it, as surely as any physical property they labored to produce, and any who wish to enjoy their creation should be subject to their standards.
So, what if their standards include ignoring Fair Use? If Warner Brothers says that anyone who wishes to enjoy ANY content from the Harry Potter movies must pay for it, does that give them a right to persecute people for posting screenshots, videos, or quotes?

If EA says that you only have a right to play Dead Space 3 yourself, but not to resell it, or to borrow it to your friends, does that give them a right to write their own EULA and ban all of this?

If G.R.R. Martin says that his Song of Ice and Fire series should be own by his heirs and their heirs and then their heirs, for 300 years, should h be allowed to decide that?


Where are the limits of "it" that they should have control over?

Lonewolfm16 said:
And another important point is that pirates, by attempting to enjoy somthing, contribute to its destruction. If piracy is held as both morally and legally acceptable than those who would attempt to create these things for profit, the very things that the escapist is built around discussion of, would cease to do so.
Wrong, people stopping to pay for things would lead to their destruction.

Piracy is not the opposite of paying. People are able to set a fixed entertainment budget every month on supporting the best things that they want to see more of as much as they can afford, and then having fun with some more accessible stuff.

Also, publishers are able to shift to models that don't require direct payment for digital content, see music publishing and the increased reliance on concerts.
Of course things need to be within reason. Fair Use is a useful compromise in determining what exactly counts as violating a author's right to his work. A quote from a book is not a book itself. And yes piracy is the opposite of paying for things. It is getting things...without paying for them. That is, in esscence, its definition. And if you want to have a set budget for entertainment, simply stay within that budget. You don't get to just take things that other people made because you feel entitled to them. And publishers shouldn't have to switch models to recover from people taking things that DO NOT BELONG TO THEM. You have zero, absolutely no, right to somthing some one else produces. The fact that the industry is being forced to accomadate people pirating things is shameful. You have repeatedly stated that piracy and theft are not comparable. Fine, please explain to me how me stealing a CD is diffrent from me pirating it online. Lets say I take a CD from a store, and download it and such. I fail entirely to see how this counts as seperate from piracy in any way. For the sake of argument lets say I stole it from the publishers themselves rather than a store, mabey a warehouse or factory, and also that I left 20 cents to pay for the actual creation of the CD. Now please, explain to me, logically, how this is in any way diffrent from pirating the CD online. I would hold that, morally speaking, it is exactly the same. Also, another thing I would like to point out, is that media=/=information. A game, show, book ect is comprised of information but to call it information is ignoring both its purpose and its creation. it is a work designed to entertain by means of the delivery of information.
 

Altorin

Jack of No Trades
May 16, 2008
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the funny thing about money is that at least in a healthy economy, it all gets spent. That's really the most important thing. The distribution of that spending might be a little askew in an age that demands instant gratification for as little money as possible, But gamers buy games. Even gamers who pirate things.
 

Entitled

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Aug 27, 2012
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Lonewolfm16 said:
You don't get to just take things that other people made because you feel entitled to them. And publishers shouldn't have to switch models to recover from people taking things that DO NOT BELONG TO THEM. You have zero, absolutely no, right to somthing some one else produces.
That would be more convincing if it wouldn't be a followup to this:

Lonewolfm16 said:
Of course things need to be within reason. Fair Use is a useful compromise in determining what exactly counts as violating a author's right to his work.
So the IP holders rights need to be compromised, so that I am allowed to things such as Fair Use, to Used Sales, and to Public Domain.

Yet at the same time, I have "zero, absolutely no, right to somthing some one else produces".

So what if I morally feel that I have a right to a 96 year old novel, that just left copyright last year? Do I still have zero, absolutely no right to it?

And what if I decide to pirate a 94 years old book, still in the claim of it's publisher?

What could make one of these acts so obviously immoral, and the other one moral?

Lonewolfm16 said:
please explain to me how me stealing a CD is diffrent from me pirating it online. Lets say I take a CD from a store, and download it and such. I fail entirely to see how this counts as seperate from piracy in any way. For the sake of argument lets say I stole it from the publishers themselves rather than a store, mabey a warehouse or factory, and also that I left 20 cents to pay for the actual creation of the CD. Now please, explain to me, logically, how this is in any way diffrent from pirating the CD online. I would hold that, morally speaking, it is exactly the same.
In the first example, you took away someone else's property for yourseelf. Leaving 20 cents there, doesn't make it any better, if the owner didn't agree to give the object to you to begin with. No to mention that the act involves breaking and entering to a territory owned by someone else.
The 20 cent part shows your misunderstanding of the concept of property. Theft isn't just bad because it makes you financially poorer, but because it involves violating one's belongings, taking them away from them.

In the piracy example, you didn't take away anything, you made a new string of data from yourself, from the data available on public websites. The only thing that is being harmed, is the IP holder's sense of entitlement to dictate to you what kind of sounds you are allowed to listen to in your own room, with your own computer.


Lonewolfm16 said:
Also, another thing I would like to point out, is that media=/=information. A game, show, book ect is comprised of information but to call it information is ignoring both its purpose and its creation. it is a work designed to entertain by means of the delivery of information.
"media" is the name of the deliverance system, and "information" is the data that is being delivered.

If you download an ebook, you are downloading a piece of information, presented through a certain media (file format (PDF), narrative format(novel), transmission device (Kindle) etc.)
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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Entitled said:
Neither of these comments contradict the other one.

Distribution of information is cool, yet creators need money for their work.

Conclusion: We need to find a way that lets creators get payed for their work, without limiting the distribution of information.
but the product is easyly accesible....you just need to pay for it
FelixG said:
your right, we should get rid of used games :3
a used game is a physical product, a digital copy is not
bastardofmelbourne said:
Vault101 said:
COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT =/= THEFT

HULK SMASH
so theres absolutly nothing wrong with it then?

its still imoral
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Quaxar said:
Tom_green_day said:
Downloading films/games/music for your own use when normally you would need to pay is robbery, and robbery is illegal. I think they should crack down on this even harder than on actual robbery, as this is easier.
Not sure if you realize that we're not talking about piracy where you sail a ship up to a store and fire at them until they surrender their data. That would be fairly easy to counter with fitting every store near a body of water with cannons of its own... possibly fencing lessons for the cashiers. Then make the whole thing watertight, put a sail on the roof and off into glorious battle.
"When I got into management, I never thought I'd have to walk the plank."

Also, since when is the fact that it's easier a reason for harder punishment? Are you saying that taking a pen from a bank should be punished harder than taking all the money out of the ATM since the fact that nobody was there to guard that pen made it more unfair?
Yeah, that's kind of absurd. The damage is less than theft. While it's a crime, it should probably be prportional.

Esotera said:
Hell yes, it's not piracy if it's legal. As long as there's some sort of tax on blank media/computers that goes directly back to content creators, then unrestricted sharing is way preferable to our current system, because of all the free culture & research that would be openly available.
That seems wildly unfeasible, though. Like, it seems like a major clusterhump just to attempt.

I'd still rather buy my media, though.