Poll: Piracy is legal

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Entitled

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bastardofmelbourne said:
Personally I blame the ads. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmZm8vNHBSU]
It's not the ads. Its the issue that I tried to discuss in this thread: how to separate legal and moral definitions.

Theft ALWAYS had an obvious established definition in every civilization. Hammurabi and Moses wrote about theft. It is a part of the natural law.

Even if I would be talking about a caveman taking away another caveman's axe, you could say that he committed something that is "morally theft", even if they didn't have laws, because theft is an universal concept that always existed, even when we didn't properly enforce it, just like equality, or liberty. (E.g.: Slaves were alawys morally free, even if some shitty coutries didn't acknowledge it.)

You can't do the same with copyright infringement, which reeks of being defined by the letter of the law. Did the caveman copying another caveman's drawing, commit something that was "morally copyright infringement"?

Which is the truly moral length of copyright, 25 years, 50 years, or 95 years?

It's easier for them to just say that copying is the same thing as theft.
 

dolgion

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Entitled said:
bastardofmelbourne said:
Personally I blame the ads. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmZm8vNHBSU]
It's not the ads. Its the issue that I tried to discuss in this thread: how to separate legal and moral definitions.

Theft ALWAYS had an obvious established definition in every civilization. Hammurabi and Moses wrote about theft. It is a part of the natural law.

Even if I would be talking about a caveman taking away another caveman's axe, you could say that he committed something that is "morally theft", even if they didn't have laws, because theft is an universal concept that always existed, even when we didn't properly enforce it, just like equality, or liberty. (E.g.: Slaves were alawys morally free, even if some shitty coutries didn't acknowledge it.)

You can't do the same with copyright infringement, which reeks of being defined by the letter of the law. Did the caveman copying another caveman's drawing, commit something that was "morally copyright infringement"?

Which is the truly moral length of copyright, 25 years, 50 years, or 95 years?

It's easier for them to just say that copying is the same thing as theft.
I personally believe that the whole idea of law is kind of laughable. Law is just an arbitrary set of rules some people agreed on, yet anybody can break the law. A law that can be broken isn't any use at all really. Sure, there is enforcement of law, and one function of it is to scare people off from breaking the law in the first place, but it's still an inherently flawed concept. And we constantly have to update our laws, constantly patching a system that is already broken from the very beginning. You know a law that nobody can break?

Newtons Laws.

Nature is the only ruleset we need to comply with, because otherwise we'd die. That for me is the bottom line. Everything else is a question of morality. We don't need laws, we need to cultivate morality and values. Once people truly understand that it isn't nice to kill someone else, or to take away their possession, then there's no need to try to force anything upon them. I don't need a law that says: don't kill other people, because I don't have any desire to kill somebody.

This sense of morality (which can of course be different from culture to culture) is ingrained into people from the moment they're born, taught by parents and environment. If you want a better society, don't make laws, but improve the world we live in, and people will turn out better. Got off on a tangent there, sorry, but was compelled to give my 2 cent.
 

Some_weirdGuy

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bastardofmelbourne said:
I almost don't know what to say - it's fundamentally a legal question. Asking whether piracy is "okay" is basically asking "is it legal?" Copyright infringement is a legal concept with a legal definition. Morality never really comes into it.

It's not like, say, lying, which can sometimes be illegal (such as with fraud) but which is fundamentally a moral question. Copyright infringement only exists because the law has created intellectual property rights to be infringed. It has zero basis in moral principles. Even "giving the creator their due" isn't a foundation principle for copyright law - if it was, the rights would be inalienable like they are in Germany, meaning the creator can never sell them away.

Basically, it's a bad thing because the law says so, not because people actually think it's a bad thing. I don't think I've ever met anyone face-to-face who sincerely thought pirates were bad people.
You've probably already been called out on this(so don't feel as though you have to make a response if you don't want to... maybe just look at the last line), but:
I entirely disagree. In my opinion piracy is first and foremost a moral question, and further a question of respect. Something being 'okay' and something being legal are not the same question at all.

Someone has put hard work and effort into creating the thing that is being pirated. Others are then gaining from that hard work, without having made payment. That is why the 'piracy is stealing' opinion is so wide spread, despite (as you have said) it not actually being stealing in the traditional sense but rather strictly 'copyright infringement' instead*, but mortally speaking it is just like stealing, in that(as mentioned) you are receiving a service or item without the due payment in exchange.

*(personally, I feel piracy is more comparable to counterfeiting. I'd even say it is the direct digital translation of counterfeiting.)
 

CaptainKoala

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People like to talk about how it's okay because the media companies are stuck in a broken business model, or that it's okay because they're all billionaires anyways. But morally speaking, none of this matters. If it causes them to lose $1 it's just as morally wrong as if it loses them $10,000.

The bottom line is this: At the end of the day, you have acquired something for free that you otherwise would have had to pay for. And no weak rationalization can change that.

I think piracy is acceptable in cases where legal copies simply can't be found anywhere, and when developers openly say they don't care if people torrent their games. These are the exceptions though, not the rule.
 

CaptainKoala

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Some_weirdGuy said:
bastardofmelbourne said:
I almost don't know what to say - it's fundamentally a legal question. Asking whether piracy is "okay" is basically asking "is it legal?" Copyright infringement is a legal concept with a legal definition. Morality never really comes into it.

It's not like, say, lying, which can sometimes be illegal (such as with fraud) but which is fundamentally a moral question. Copyright infringement only exists because the law has created intellectual property rights to be infringed. It has zero basis in moral principles. Even "giving the creator their due" isn't a foundation principle for copyright law - if it was, the rights would be inalienable like they are in Germany, meaning the creator can never sell them away.

Basically, it's a bad thing because the law says so, not because people actually think it's a bad thing. I don't think I've ever met anyone face-to-face who sincerely thought pirates were bad people.
You've probably already been called out on this(so don't feel as though you have to make a response if you won't ant to), but:
I entirely disagree. In my opinion piracy is first and foremost a moral question, and further a question of respect. Something being 'okay' and something being legal are not the same question at all.

Someone has put hard work and effort into creating the thing that is being pirated. Others are then gaining from that hard work, without having made payment. That is why the 'piracy is stealing' opinion is so wide spread, despite (as you have said) it not actually being stealing in the traditional sense but rather strictly 'copyright infringement' instead*, but mortally speaking it is just like stealing, in that(as mentioned) you are receiving a service or item without the due payment in exchange.

*(personally, I feel piracy is more comparable to counterfeiting. I'd even say it is the direct digital translation of counterfeiting.)
Counterfeiting involves making fake copies of something, while piracy just takes something an distributes exact copes for free in indefinite amounts.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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Entitled said:
Adopting a moral definition of theft for the purposes of comparison to copyright infringement is thoroughly problematic. Even if you accept that theft is illegal because it's wrong (Yanks call this malum in se), copyright infringement is only wrong because it's illegal (malum prohibitum).

It's even possible to argue that theft isn't malum in se, because theft can't exist without a legal conception of property ownership. You have to have the concept of property rights before you can talk about people violating them.

This is why the discussion shouldn't be a moral one. It's problematic, a lot of it is grounded in vague principles and community perceptions of morality instead of firm legal definitions, and it's thoroughly impractical - even if you do some rhetorical gymnastics and twist the "moral" definition of theft so that it covers something as unrelated as copyright infringement, that's not going to convince a fucking judge.
 

chikusho

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I've defended piracy so many times in the past that I'm not expecting to make a difference by doing it yet again here, but even if Piracy was as big of a problem as most of the opposers seem to believe, the organizations working _against_ piracy are without a doubt more harmful to society as a whole than piracy will _ever_ be.
On the sole merit of lessening the iron grip of the legislative process that IP and copyright owners (note: not creators) piracy should not only be decriminalized, it should be encouraged.
 

Some_weirdGuy

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CaptainKoala said:
Counterfeiting involves making fake copies of something, while piracy just takes something an distributes exact copes for free in indefinite amounts.
What denotes a digital(or even non-digital) item as a 'fake' copy as opposed to a... 'non-fake' copy?
If you mean that the only distinguishing factor between a 'fake' and a 'real' item is the accuracy of it's replication, then I think I see a bit of a flaw in your assertion.
 

Entitled

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Some_weirdGuy said:
Someone has put hard work and effort into creating the thing that is being pirated. Others are then gaining from that hard work, without having made payment.
This, on it's own, isn't like stealing, or even considered immoral.

That's just the definition of a positive externality [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality#Positive]

As long as a product would have been made either way, extra people getting a benefit from it is normally considered a good thing.
 

Killclaw Kilrathi

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Dec 28, 2010
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Vault101 said:
5ilver said:
If it was legal, I think most people would also consider it morally okay- same as what's happening with weed currently.
how the fuck is it ok?

I make a game called chicken hunters...I put effort into it, I put the game up for sale......everyone loves the game...and majority of people pirate the game

I have no money no chicken hunters 2...great going guys!!!

or scenario 2

I make chicken hunters 2 under publisher FC (fat cats), chicken hunters 2 is a game with a sizable budget....people love chicken hunters 2 but alot of people pirate

FC have alot of money....but they look at the stats and the "disapointing" returns for chicken hunters 2 and shut down my studio

GREAT GOING GUYS!!!

people who advocate piracy seem to lack basic logic
I definitely agree with what you're saying here, if a content creator is specifically against piracy then I'd say to leave their stuff the heck alone.

The one caveat I'd put forward is when a content creator says that they don't mind piracy. I remember this happening for a game that was banned in Australia due to the lack of an R18 rating, the developer basically said "well, we can't legally make a profit there so all you aussies just go ahead and pirate the game". There is also a pro-pirate attitude among a lot of music artists, many of them have said that they make their money from concerts and just like to see their music getting out there rather than squeezing out the few cents per album sale their record contract allows them. Of course, you could argue that the music is technically the property of the record label at that point, so there's still plenty of argument there.
 

Entitled

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CaptainKoala said:
The bottom line is this: At the end of the day, you have acquired something for free that you otherwise would have had to pay for. And no weak rationalization can change that.
No, and I don't see why anyone would want to change that.

See my above post about positive externalities. On it's own, "getting more stuff for free instead of having to pay for it", is AWESOME.

You would need to add something to that bottom line about how only the cases of piracy that make the publisher poorer are wrong, or something like that.
 

bastardofmelbourne

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Some_weirdGuy said:
You've probably already been called out on this
No, I haven't.

I entirely disagree. In my opinion piracy is first and foremost a moral question, and further a question of respect. Something being 'okay' and something being legal are not the same question at all.

Someone has put hard work and effort into creating the thing that is being pirated. Others are then gaining from that hard work, without having made payment. That is why the 'piracy is stealing' opinion is so wide spread, despite (as you have said) it not actually being stealing in the traditional sense but rather strictly 'copyright infringement' instead*, but mortally speaking it is just like stealing, in that(as mentioned) you are receiving a service or item without the due payment in exchange.

*(personally, I feel piracy is more comparable to counterfeiting. I'd even say it is the direct digital translation of counterfeiting.)
I can't force you to approach the problem like I do. I wrote a large post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.398484-Poll-Piracy-is-legal?page=3#16305994] above about why approaching piracy as a moral question is problematic; I don't know if you've read it, as it's effectively my response to this point.

If you have read it, and you don't accept it, I can't do much more to sway your mind.
 

Morph

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bastardofmelbourne said:
General Twinkletoes said:
I don't think pirates are bad people, but that doesn't mean piracy isn't a morally wrong thing. Do you honestly see nothing wrong with it? Only a few providers are at risk of getting caught, everyone who doesn't pirate does it because they think it's morally right, not because they're afraid of getting punished.

Honestly, you see nothing morally wrong with piracy?
I think it's morally wrong on the same level that jaywalking is morally wrong. As in, not very.

The problem with talking about piracy as a moral question is that it opens up a whole bag of moral quandaries that you don't really need to address. Let's say copyright infringement is morally wrong in the basis that you are deriving the benefit of a creator's work without paying for it. Under that framework, I can think of a number of equally wrong but socially acceptable activities, such as;

- borrowing a book from a friend
- buying a used video game
- accepting a hand-me-down iPhone from a sibling
- reading a comic book or a magazine in the store
- watching a DVD of the Avengers at a friend's house
- listening to music played on your friend's music player
- watching a clip of a comedian's stand-up routine on Youtube

You can keep going. Under the moral framework for copyright infringement, literally any scenario where you obtain the benefit of a work - reading it, watching it, listening to it - without paying money to the artist is morally wrong. That's unworkable. There isn't a single human being in the first world who hasn't done one of those items on the list at some point in their lives. They're all about as malicious as eating the last slice of cake, or telling your girlfriend she doesn't look fat in those jeans.

Add that to the fact that, as I said, if you take a moral view of copyright law it's morally wrong to pay anyone other than the creator. How much of the money made from music and films goes to the creators and how much goes to the lobbyists and industry powerbrokers behind the MPAA and the RIAA? How much of the money made by sales of Batman comics goes to Bill Finger? If I buy a copy of the Hobbit, does the deceased Tolkien get the money? His descendants get the money - people who are passively deriving a benefit from their grandfather's achievements.

Once you apply a classical moral framework to copyright law, the whole structure collapses. If the point of copyright is to benefit the author, why does it persist past the author's death? Why is it possible to sell your copyright in a work?

So how do you answer those questions? You don't. Copyright infringement isn't illegal because it's morally wrong - it's illegal because the law says so. This might seem unjust, but it's what happens when powerful lobbyists use a shallow appeal to morality to justify expanding the scope and length of copyright far past the point of absurdity. Better to think of it as a legal question concerning legal rights and governed by legal principles. That way, at least it makes sense.

When you get down to it, the only time anyone is going to care about copyright infringement is when you're being sued for it. And when you get put in front of a judge, talking about morality isn't going to get you very far. The judge is sitting in front of a big book called The Law, and he wants to find out if what you did was illegal, not if it was wrong.
So I started reading some of the other comments here, arguing that piracy was immoral, and for a minute there I was afraid I'd actually have to put some thought into constructing a coherent counter-argument. You seem to have said just about everything I would want to say. So for that, I thank you ser.

On a related note though, I would say that I am very much a fan of the increasingly popular "choose your price" option for downloading movies and games. In many cases it works out well for the content creators/artists, and tends to cut out all the "middle-man" distribution sources.

I'd also like to add that sometimes the sources for pirating content provide a strictly better service than the actual distributor for a given IP. Take for example, old video games. If you want to get a game from NES or SNES days, unless it was a really popular game that's been remade, the ONLY way to get a copy is by pirating it. For another example, take the fansubs of anime and manga. Generally, less than a week after a chapter/episode is released in Japan, fansub groups will have a fully translated version available for fans, and often their translations are on par or better than those of the content owners, who will release their translated version in about eight months to a year. (If this point has already been made, I apologize for wasting space to repeat it, but I have not read every post here.)
 

CaptainKoala

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Some_weirdGuy said:
CaptainKoala said:
Counterfeiting involves making fake copies of something, while piracy just takes something an distributes exact copes for free in indefinite amounts.
What denotes a digital(or even non-digital) item as a 'fake' copy as opposed to a... 'non-fake' copy?
If you mean that the only distinguishing factor between a 'fake' and a 'real' item is the accuracy of it's replication, then I think I see a bit of a flaw in your assertion.
No, the difference is one is made by the creator, and the counterfeit is made by someone else to be as close to it as possible. This isn't the case in piracy, which is simply taking the original and mass distributing it for free. There is no imitation in piracy like there is in counterfeiting.
 

QuantumT

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CaptainKoala said:
People like to talk about how it's okay because the media companies are stuck in a broken business model, or that it's okay because they're all billionaires anyways. But morally speaking, none of this matters. If it causes them to lose $1 it's just as morally wrong as if it loses them $10,000.
To say that stealing $1 and stealing $10000 aren't different levels of wrong just seems to be blatantly incorrect. To clarify why, lets make an analogy using violence instead of money.

"Flicking someone on the ear is just as morally wrong as shooting them in the head."

Making these two equivalent obviously absurd, and so is your example. Morality is hardly ever black and white.
 

Compatriot Block

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Entitled said:
Compatriot Block said:
You know what, I couldn't care less about whether piracy is technically stealing or not. What really, truly irks me is that by downloading for free what I pay for, they are piggybacking on me and everyone else who paid. Essentially, I am paying for their game, because if nobody actually spent money on the games, the developers wouldn't make them.

That is why people should be angry. Pirates are using everyone else to fund their gaming, because if everyone pirates like they do, then the games stop shipping.
Again, that only works if you assume that it's the same people who always pirating everything, and the same people always buying everything, as opposed to most people buying most of their games, and they also feel relaxed about occasionally also pirating some when they are broke, or want to play something that isn't sold anymore, or unsure about a game that doesn't have a demo, etc, usual justifications.

There are very few people who are hardcore pirates, or who are obsessed with ALWAYS following copyright laws.

Edit: Besides, isn't that also true for LEGALLY getting a copy without paying? Like borrowing from a friend? Do you feel angry about people who borrow stuff piggybacking on the industry?

Or people who only buy things after a price cut? They also harm the industry why not paying a full price, aren't thes?
No, I don't, and it's disingenuous to try and use less reasonable examples instead of responding to mine.

It would be absurd to be angry about people who borrow things.

It would be absurd to be angry at people who buy a game at less than full price.

I am not angry about either of those things, and therefore they should not be involved in your argument, unless you were intentionally trying to equate my point with something both less reasonable and easier for you to argue against. Which would be shameful.

Now, as for the rest of your post.

First off, people who are "obsessed" with following copyright laws (within the realm of gaming, as this is where this topic is based; music examples has no relevance to this discussion) are more common than those who have even dabbled in piracy, owing largely to satisfaction with the current system, relative difficulty of piracy on consoles, and yes, morality.

Second, whether or not they pirate every game under the sun or only have only pirated one specific game, the point stands. They received something for free that would not exist were it not for paying customers, ergo, piggybacking.

And please, do not bring in an example that involves a game that is literally impossible to get legitimately. We both know we're talking about games that are available for purchase.
 

QuantumT

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Compatriot Block said:
I'm going to attempt to clarify what Entitled was getting at.

He brought up people borrowing games, he was giving a very distinct group of people who are "piggybacking" on the people who buy the game (ie they get to play the game but aren't paying for it).

When you respond with

Compatriot Block said:
It would be absurd to be angry about people who borrow things.

It would be absurd to be angry at people who buy a game at less than full price.
That is EXACTLY the point. It IS absurd to get mad at people who borrow things. The problem is that you have yet to qualify how the group of people who pirate the game are any different from the group of people who borrow things. There is a legal difference, but you already said that isn't what you were interested in.
 

Yopaz

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Voted other because this isn't a black and white issue. There are tons of things that you just can't get your hands on with legal means, such as records that are out of print. Yes, you can buy it used, but that doesn't give the record company any more money than if you had downloaded it

In other cases you get screwed over by copyright/trademark laws. Now this is actually an example of how it hurts both the publisher and the consumer. A few months back the prologue to the book A Memory of light was released. I was planning to buy that instantly, but I couldn't because they didn't have the rights to sell digital content outside America. I tried a lot of sites that had digital content and I really put a lot of effort into finding someone who could publish it. It took months before I was able to legally buy it, but piracy would have granted me the book much sooner. Now I have bought the prologue and the book in both audio format and as a leather bound copy worth almost $300 so it's not just an excuse to pirate something.

The same copyright laws also prevent the book from being translated to different languages since the person who holds the rights to the series is dead. Now this actually hurts the publisher quite a lot. They are missing out on the entire market that don't like to read English books. Which means huge parts of Asia and Europe. The laws need to be modified for both the companies and the consumers.
 

Strazdas

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Depends on situation. I for oen believe that ALL scientific works should be accessible to every human being. As for entertainment art, i think current copyright laws are very very bad. Main thing is the period. the period was extended to life+90 for "saving mickey" whne in reality it sohuld ahve been shortened. Such things as music and movies should go to public domain after at most 30 years, and with media that changes as fast as games that should be around 15 or even 10 years. you have been making profit from your product for 30 years, you have gotten your bite, now stop rpetending like its a valuable property and go make new things. There are obviuos exceptions, like a long runing series where the ownership of the original concept is important for ability to continue production. but we already got that in our law.
Imagine what that would do to our libraries. And the creators really wount be punished since lets face it how much profit do they earn after the movie is out for 30+ years with exception of it being something like pulp fiction.
So yeah, morally SOME piracy is ok according to my personal opinion.

Then there is also a trial factor, but with the media coverage we got today no demo is necessary. i mean jut start a let's play on youtube and you will have the same thing. However i do understand that there are quite a few people who pirate it and buy it if the content is good. so this highly encourages making good content as that is the only one you get paid for.

That's a nice idea, the only problem with it is that it would be inherently biased in favor of established media, and stun innovation by giving a conservative authority the power to decide what art gets supported.

If we would have had such a system a few decades ago, the government paying artists every time their movie is watched, or novel is borrowed from a library, then Pong and Pac-Man and Donkey Kong wouldn't fallen under that, as practically no one would have recognized them as "culture", or even as media. And then, the industry wouldn't have had it's roots.

There are new art forms being invented even now, and some of them will catch on. While I agree that unrestricted sharing is the way, but it must still have some sort of capitalistic model around it, that allows for surprise growth.
not necessarily true.
We have a blank space tax here (so even if i buy a dvd to write the thing i filmed myself i still pay some singer money because someone may pirate it) even though piracy is not legal here. However the system we have here is the money is shared to artists based on how much they are listened. And while that is sadly done mostly though radio and TV broadcast ratings now, if we update that to based on amount of downloads then the authors would fairly get paid based on how popular their work is. so a new and upcoming author would still get money provided there are people that download it. and if there are none, then very likely he would sell nothing in current system anyway.
 

Lunar Templar

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I think they should decriminalize it here in the states, not cause it'd give the pirates a free pass but the shit storm. would.be.epic.

sides, most the publishers that ***** about it the most and use it s a scapegoat I don't particularly like, so watching them scramble would be highly amusing.

And since all my best games are MMOs or on consoles not built around the idea of 'connecting to the internet', what ever poorly conceived plan they come up with to combat it wouldn't effect me in any meaningful way :D

the joys of refusing to 'get with the times'