Poll: Predefined RPG characters: when do they kill the concept?

[The Eggplant]

DISCLAIMER: Reading of the long pre-question rant not necessary for answering of question. Read only if you have free time and feel like being mildly alarmed at how into this I get. Actual question at bottom. Also, if you vote--or if none of the options work for you--please leave a comment explaining a bit. That is all.

This may be borderline heresy for some (I wouldn't know the overall opinion, I haven't really been around long enough), but I hate Final Fantasy. Not any of the games specifically...the whole series. It's not for the combat not, for the storytelling, not for the setting, not for the ambiance. None of that.

No, what gets me about FF are the characters. Mostly the fact that there are characters. One of the things I love best in RPGs is the actual roleplaying aspect; the ability to feel like you're experiencing a world through your own eyes, and to feel like your decisions--your decisions, not the predetermined choices of the little man on the screen--are having a real effect on that world. The FF series, by contrast, throws you into the shoes of some random people whose personalities, lifestyles, perspectives and abilities are largely all arranged for you, and the most interactivity involved is moving them from one plot device to the next, one slapfest to another. FF isn't the only series guilty of this--I have problems playing The Witcher because no matter how you specialize, you're never not going to be an amnesiac Aryan mystic, and even issues with the ME games because even if you're Commandress Shepard, you're still bloody Shep. There's a bunch of titles I could add to this shit-list...Golden Sun (although I actually liked how well-developed the characters in those games were, and how freely you could customize their powers...FFVI did that pretty well too), Planescape: Torment (great game otherwise, but that aspect of it dragged it down for me), even something like inFamous if you have a broad definition of RPGs.

And yeah, I know that the FF series and their ilk are RPGs in the sense that yes, you are in fact roleplaying...but you're roleplaying someone else entirely, which often ends up amounting to little more than moving their legs while their heads are under the control of someone else entirely...and for me, that kills the immersion a fair bit.

[/rantoff] Er, so. Opinions, Escapists? Do you enjoy being able to put your own personalities into RPGs, or is any roleplaying good roleplaying? Or, alternately, have you given up on this post long ago and are even now reaching for your assault rifle to go a-shootin'?

 

[Zannah]

There is one, exactly one game that ever did this right, in the history of gaming. That's Dark Messiah of might and magic. So, it CAN work, but it requires the developer to make a really tight, really intense game around it, which is work, so nobody does it.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

It bothers me if it limits the strategies that you can use too much, when you have no control over character sheets and team builds. It's like the developer saying, "boy this game system is great. I'm going to have a lot of fun playing with it and when I am finished I'll let the players see how I like playing it. They would be too stupid to work out how to play a game this good themselves."

You can never really create a character with a personality you define in a single player video game anyway. It's all just an illusion, and a pretty shallow one at that. You get to play a character with a very weak personality that you can project onto or a choice between a handful of stronger personalities made by the devs.

 

[Thaius]

I prefer my RPGs to have a story. A story without characters sucks: it's as simple as that. That is why, though games like Oblivion and Fallout 3 may have pretty good stories outside of the main character, they will never be able to hold a candle to even the weakest Final Fantasy story. I don't give a crap about a character I create, because he is simply a vessel for me to do whatever I please within a game world. The characters in Final Fantasy have personalities, hopes, dreams, flaws... they are CHARACTERS. They are required for any semblance of a good story, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[Songbird-O]

I like characters. I like my characters to have personality. Not all personalities are Final Fantasy characters whose backstories are verbose and long and dumb and unneeded and don't to anything to make the character's personality likable. Some personalities are simple. And a well done simple personality can add some delicious flavor to any game.

For instance, Yangus in Dragon Quest VIII. He wouldn't be the same without his gruff cockney accent and mispronounced words. That added a lot to my experience without suffocating me.

Dragon Quest VIII's silent hero was enough for me. He was an established character with an established backstory, but not much of a personality. You know, 'cause he's silent. I didn't consciously put myself in his shoes, but his actions never pushed me out of the experience.

Just do what I do, and avoid anything that takes itself too seriously. Games like Final Fantasy can't let you in, because you'll cramp their style, nerd.

Games will always be set in some constraints. I want to play an established character so that I feel like I am part of the story. Characters who are completely customizable often cause game dialogue to be vague and not involve the main character, since that character can be anything. Why should I use my imagination when no one else in the game is?

 

[Doc Cannon]

There is one, exactly one game that ever did this right, in the history of gaming. That's Dark Messiah of might and magic. So, it CAN work, but it requires the developer to make a really tight, really intense game around it, which is work, so nobody does it.

I was about to talk about Dark Messiah myself... so yeah, I agree it can work out fine, but it's not that easy. And I would have liked DM even more if I could have built my own character (although the game was not that RPGey... it was more of a First Person Kicker-).

The thing is, I like making my own characters and playing their interactions with the NPCs. That's at least 40% of the roleplaying experience to me, so custom characters are quite important.

 

[The Eggplant]

The thing is, I like making my own characters and playing their interactions with the NPCs. That's at least 40% of the roleplaying experience to me, so custom characters are quite important.

That's exactly what I'm talking about...I can appreciate a nicely-written and well-crafted story for a character that I'm playing, but I get much more enjoyment out of being able to craft one myself and try to play the game through his/her (so far only his) eyes. The ability to choose my own way of looking at the game world is big for me, even if yeah, it does make the game seem a little bland in compensation for that freedom.

 

[Zannah]

There is one, exactly one game that ever did this right, in the history of gaming. That's Dark Messiah of might and magic. So, it CAN work, but it requires the developer to make a really tight, really intense game around it, which is work, so nobody does it.

I was about to talk about Dark Messiah myself... so yeah, I agree it can work out fine, but it's not that easy. And I would have liked DM even more if I could have built my own character (although the game was not that RPGey... it was more of a First Person Kicker-).

The thing is, I like making my own characters and playing their interactions with the NPCs. That's at least 40% of the roleplaying experience to me, so custom characters are quite important.

True, but I think we're touching technical borders here - software for instance simply isn't able to pronounce any fancy name a gamer might have come up with (hence avoiding stuff like that, like commander shepard does), and depending on the level of customization, if you still want to tell a dramatic, tight story, you essentially would have to build like twenty games, just to cover all the different approaches. I agree with you on principal, that more games should take the "well do what you want, do we look like we care?" approach bethesda has to its games, but even there, you still hit the limits of what you can do in the game really fast. Until Software is advanced, and developers are sophisticated enough, let's stick to P&p roleplay...

 

[suhlEap]

i'm not bothered either way really. sometimes it's just annoying, but if it's done well i do enjoy it.

 

[psivamp]

I loved Planescape: Torment, because they gave you a character to an extent but you were divorced from his history -- who he was. You were free to become your own version of the Nameless One.

Baldur's Gate did a pretty good job of letting you fill in a role that wasn't very restrictive. You were the plot, as one of the Bhaalspawn, but they didn't tell you who you had to be.

I haven't gotten into an FF game since 3, although to be fair I haven't actually played any of them since 7. JRPGs tend to be less about playing a role as watching a very stilted movie, your control of things is fairly nonexistent. You move from point A to point B and you control the fights, but other than that you're just kinda slogging around until the next cutscene or scrolling text bit.

 

[000Ronald]

Y'know what I really didn't like about Oblivion? Well, other than how I got my ass handed to me one too many times on my first playthrough, and how scale (from my perspective) was a little difficult; did I just jump from three, five, or ten stories? How am I still alive? And why is that gigantic, jagged, vaugely penis-shaped tower bigger on the inside? Is Merunes Daegon a Time Lord?

No one did anything but you. No one. You could stand in town for literally weeks and no ill would come of it. I know, because I accadentally did just that; it pissed me off enough that I didn't play the game again for a month.

Wait, that sounds vauge, let me give you an example; there's a man [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Melus_Petilius] in a small village south of Chorral; he's apparently so good with a mace that he can beat back an entire pack of minutars without any trouble. What does he do through the whole game, with demons running around trying to destroy creation? Nothing. He just sits around mourning his dead wife. He says his gods will protect him, but what about the people he was protecting before? Doesn't it fall on him, with his power, to protect them? Wouldn't his dead wife want him to (at least help) stop the oncoming apocalypse?

OK, OK, he's a pacifist, and that's the whole point behind his character, but what about people like Alix Lencolia [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Alix_Lencolia], the master swordsman? Hieronymus Lex [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Hieronymus_Lex], Captian of the Watch and keeper of the peace? The entire friggin' fighter's guild? [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Fighters_Guild] Why didn't any of these people do anything? You know by the end of the game that the daedra are terrified of you; who's to say that if they were more terrified of a shitload of people than Merunes Daegon, they'd throw up their hands and give up? Maybe become a functional part of society? Those blacksmiths are obviously the shit; they make the most powerful weapons and armor in the game (well, second most powerful, but they're mass producing the damn things). What if they infuzed their weapons with minerals and ores from Tamriel? Who wouldn't benifit from that?

What's more, wouldn't that send a much stronger message? Instead of, "Most people are piddly shits and you've got to take care of them" you'd have "Y'see this? Y'see this? This is why you do not fuck a stranger in the ass, especially if that stranger is the human race! Do you see what happens?"

And a third point; you could use the powerful imagery of people standing against hoards of monsters in the commercials. You'd start out with a bunch of demons attacking a small town, with Patric Stewart narrating something that amoutns to, "These guys are invading the planet..." Then you'd have this guy [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Melus_Petilius] in full glass armor step out of his house, mace in hand, and say, "I'll give you a moment to pray to your gods." One of them rushes at guy, and gets hit so hard his head goes flying. Modryn Oreyn walks into the Fighers Guild, covered in a sticky, black substance, and says, "I need six strong men who aren't afraid to die." Everyone, knowing what he's asking, jumps. Then you see things like this happening all over Tamriel; Patrick Stewarts narration continues, amounting to, "...and they're going to get their asses kicked"

Why didn't they do that? Well, they did, eventually, in the Knights of The Nine expansion; but why didn't they do it in the first place? I dunno. Mabye they thought it would detract from the expirience.

This happens a lot, especially when you're making a bran' spankin' new character. Everything revolves arouns you. Call me crazy, but I don't like that. I don't want to be the only working cog, but one kinda large cog working in tandum with a bunch of equally sized cogs. Maybe it's part of how the story's told, but games where you're established as a person with their own motives seem to do this better than games where you're a new person in a new enviornment. In oblivion, everyone steps aside for you because no one is sure what you're going to do; in Final Fantasy XII, there's a lot happening that you don't know about, and that has absolutely nothing to do with you. A game that struck a balance between these two extremes would be...well, I'd play it, anyway.

For the record, I do like Oblivion, I just have a lot of nitpicks about it. A lot.

Apologies for the rant.

 

[Icecoldcynic]

Also, the point of roleplaying is not to roleplay yourself in an fictional universe. A sign of a true roleplayer is one who can adapt to any role and play it out. Hence the term: ROLEPLAY.

Seriously, this.

RPGs have been doing this for YEARS, and I swear the only reason people bring up final fantasy as a specific example is because they think it's cool to hate on JRPG's.

 

[The Eggplant]

Also, the point of roleplaying is not to roleplay yourself in an fictional universe. A sign of a true roleplayer is one who can adapt to any role and play it out. Hence the term: ROLEPLAY.

Seriously, this.

RPGs have been doing this for YEARS, and I swear the only reason people bring up final fantasy as a specific example is because they think it's cool to hate on JRPG's.

Ehhh...well, I suppose. It's not that I don't acknowledge that it's a common thing for RPG designers to do, I just don't think "common" should be used as a synonym for "a good idea." Again, this is pretty much all personal preference, but I like to have some sense of relability to the little man I'm guiding around screen. I have no problem with trying to put myself in someone else's shoes, but there needs to be some level of ambiguity for me so that I can at least try to prescribe some kind of originality of character onto my avatar. Otherwise I might as well just play an RTS.

And it's not that I dislike JRPGs...it's that I dislike the Final Fantasy series, which I would hold up as the chief offender in the "Don't-Allow-the-Player-Any-Creative-Freedom-in-What-is-Nominally-an-RPG" circle. They barely count as games, with all the overwrought effort that goes into making the characters as opaquely fleshed-out--and thus inaccessible--as possible. It's no damn fun even from the "playing as someone else" perspective to ask "what would Tiddly McSillybugger do in this situation?" when you know EXACTLY what he'll do because he's bloody well spelled it out for you, and furthermore you have absolutely NO ability to insert your own inclinations into his actions because the game rather forgot that YOU were supposed to be rolePLAYING as someone, rather than just watching him save Kwanzaa or whatnot.

Whew...I've gotta learn to stop being so long-winded.

 

[000Ronald]

Also, the point of roleplaying is not to roleplay yourself in an fictional universe. A sign of a true roleplayer is one who can adapt to any role and play it out. Hence the term: ROLEPLAY.

Seriously, this.

RPGs have been doing this for YEARS, and I swear the only reason people bring up final fantasy as a specific example is because they think it's cool to hate on JRPG's.

So you would buy a game where you'd roleplay as...I dunno, Al Gore? I wouldn't. Who the hell wants to play Al Gore? It's not to say you can't, but why would you want to?

I'm sorry, but your argument strikes me as having the same condecending tone as a mother telling her child to eat his/her vegetables. Sure, you can, but you don't have to like it. But why play a game you don't like? How does it benifit you?

That's not to say that the games are unlikable (I've liked all the Final Fantasy games I've played, though I think they have yet to make one as deep and meaningful as VIII) but that doesn't mean everyone has to. That's stupid. Y'know how I know it's stupid? Someone once tried to force me to like Tetris. He failed; partially because he had no idea who he was talking to, but mostly because he was a moron. That's not to say that you're a moron; what your saying is moronic, but I'm sure you're a reasonably intelligent fella.

I've always thought that the whole point of roleplaying is to be someone you wanted to be, but couldn't be; I like playing as a swordsman who hits so fast nothing sees him, but that's not for everyone. What one person likes is most certainly not going to be like by another person; making your argument, "They should like it" almost proves them right.

And there's no reason to get riled up. No one is saying that one thing is better, just that they're different. Sure, the OP doesn't like the things you like, but he's not saying they suck, either, at least as far as I can tell.

Apologies for the double-rant; I'm on a roll today.

 

[mexicola]

Not at all, a great character in a game can make it so much better then a blank slate one. That being said I also like make-your-own-character games so it doesn't bother me either way.

 

[The Eggplant]

But ask yourself this: Why should an elaborate RPG story allow you to create yourself and doodle around how you wish, then an generic FPS game with a mute doesn't?

That is an interesting question!

Actually, I was considering mentioning the fact that although I dislike the Half-Life games on the whole, I quite like Gordon Freeman, reason being that although he's a predetermined character for sure, his complete silence allows us to project our own emotions onto him. So maybe it's not so much the established characters that get to me as when we're not allowed any degree of creativity in how we interpret their actions and decisions within the context of the game.

 

[Ryank1908]

For me personally it depends on the kind of RPG I'm playing. With RPG's typically from Japan I tend to just go on with the narrative, reading it like a book, if that's the way you want to look at it. In that case, character customization feels redundant for me. Naming your characters was as far as I'd stretch thanks to the lack of voice acting in the days when I really enjoyed JRPG's, which gave it a somewhat personal edge, but it was by no means character customization of any kind, particularly when Final Fantasy X came out with it's bizarrely nameless hero, then completely ditched that business by including Tidus in Dissidia complete with actual direct, vocal addressing from other characters in the story.

On the flip side if I'm playing a game that allows me to invent my own character it has to be COMPLETELY. I love being able to immerse myself in the story of a character that I personally have a level of responsibility for it's creation. MMO's and some RPG's allow me to this in particular. Elder Scrolls Oblivion; is one noticeable example; you began in prison, sure, but the reasons you were there and everything about your character henceforth was decided by you.

However, in games like Baldur's Gate and Fallout, there was always something niggling me; possibly the whole preset-background thing. A large part of creating a character for me is getting a little story about their past life and exploits going. When the game's main storyline revolves around a relative constantly reminding you that he watched you throughout your childhood, that you certainly weren't a badass bandit or a tragic wanderer but a kid from a vault, or the glaring fact that you were raised in Candlekeep and are some kind of demonspawn thing, a lot of the mystery and obsession is lost for me.
That's a very personal and petty gripe with those games though. I would personally say BGII is my favourite game of all time, despite that little niggle.

{Quick edit on having read some of the previous posts]
With RPG's the term 'roleplaying' for me applies to me making my own characters and their whole stories. I'm a writer by trade and hobby, so that's how I do it. I'd treat preset narratives like a written story, but again, that's a personal thing, and I can entirely understand gamers wanting to play a role given to them rather than their own little monster.

 

[Icecoldcynic]

snip

You can't be serious. You CANNOT be serious.

None of your rant corresponded to my post at all, and you complain about games forcing you into roles you don't want, when the simple answer is DON'T PLAY THEM! That's like whining about playing as the Master Chief in Halo, or Gordon Freeman in Half-life. Sometimes games have a main character, whether they're RPGs or not.

 

[Chancie]

The only one I've played where I can remember making the character from scratch was Dragon Age: Origins and I still absolutely loved it. I guess it depends on how good the other characters are too.

 

[000Ronald]

Hat Trick!

Counter: Then don't buy the game.
As I look on your avatar, I see that you have Soren from Fire Emblem if I recall right. And since you mention that you have played and liked every FF so far, that means that you should be well aware of the whole Roleplaying aspect. Therefore, I say it again.

Don't buy the game.

There have been many occasions where I have just refused to buy a game because it insists on me playing some generic shorthaired male lead. Example all the GTA games ever made except the first one. I just don't buy them.

Why can't we choose to make our own character in many of the FPS's out there today?
Specifically, why are they so hellbent on not letting female characters being the lead?
Therefore, the simple solution is to avoid the game. Nothing says that you have to buy the game.

Soma Bringer for DS is a 'good' example of an roleplaying game that lets you pick one of like 7 characters, name him/her, but still have to follow that character's predetermined path.

I apologize, I'm tired and my arguments may or may not sound very good at all. But ask yourself this: Why should an elaborate RPG story allow you to create yourself and doodle around how you wish, when an generic FPS game with a mute doesn't?

That is an interesting question!

Point 1: There are RPGs that let you create your own character, male or female; Mass Effect, Taublu Rasa, even Halo to a smaller degree (you can change the grunt from male to female). What's more, there are games like Metroid, Bayonetta, and Laura Croft that out-and-out let you play as female protaginists. That's not to say it's not a good question, just that it probably doesn't hold up as well as you thought it did.

Point 2: This is less a conversation about liking and not liking a game and more a conversation about how certain aspects add and detract from the roleplaying expirience. Yes, I liked the Final Fantasy (and Fire Emblem, but that's not the same thing) games, but I liked Oblivion and Diablo, too. Hell, the only games I don't really like are puzzle games like Tetris and Columns. I'm an easy guy.

That doesn't mean I'm stupid, though. I don't like everything about every game; the draw system was annoying, even for me, I didn't like the skill system in Final Fantasy IX, and I've gone through a small part of my complaints concerning Oblivion. These things detracted from the expirience for me; they interrupted both the story and the gameplay. The ideas behind them were good, but needed to be implemented in a different way. How? Hell, I dunno, I'm not a game designer.

So...apologies. I hope I've been helpful.