Poll: Predefined RPG characters: when do they kill the concept?

Recommended Videos

Paddin

Senior Member
Sep 30, 2009
731
0
21
Icecoldcynic said:
The_Logician19 said:
You can't be serious. You CANNOT be serious.

None of your rant corresponded to my post at all, and you complain about games forcing you into roles you don't want, when the simple answer is DON'T PLAY THEM! That's like whining about playing as the Master Chief in Halo, or Gordon Freeman in Half-life. Sometimes games have a main character, whether they're RPGs or not.
I think you are being nit-picky stranger. Halo and Half-life aren't RPGs. But to bring in these, games are adding more and more personalisation choices. Such as the choice in Halo:

Should I have Security shoulders, or Scout?

Clearly developers are seeing an increase in demand for more personalisation within games. Why can the rules not be applied to FF? Don't deny that FFVII wouldn't have been more awesome if you could equip Cloud in parachute pants.

Also, I think there is a limit with predefined characters in RPGs, most of the whiny angsty teens in JRPGs put me off the genre as a whole, as I can't relate to the character and don't care how his story plays out, but I may care how the story plays out as a whole.

Lets be fair, if there was a RPG where you were space pirates fighting intergalatic ninjas, but you had to play as John Gannoway, you would not be amused.
 

Yureina

Who are you?
May 6, 2010
7,098
0
0
To me it largely depends on the amount of freedom the player has in being able to alter a character to their own tastes. A generally open-ended storyline, even if the origin of a character is generally the same. Nevertheless allows for a considerable amount of freedom and replayability. At the same time, a game that puts far too much into elements that your character is "supposed to do" or forced to act like tend to turn me off, because it then goes against the elements of free character design that allow me so much replayability.

In other words, the difference between Fallout 3 and Dragon Age: Origins.
 

000Ronald

New member
Mar 7, 2008
2,167
0
0
Icecoldcynic said:
The_Logician19 said:
You can't be serious. You CANNOT be serious.

None of your rant corresponded to my post at all, and you complain about games forcing you into roles you don't want, when the simple answer is DON'T PLAY THEM! That's like whining about playing as the Master Chief in Halo, or Gordon Freeman in Half-life. Sometimes games have a main character, whether they're RPGs or not.
I think you misunderstood my post; I wasn't complaining as much as making a point. Games where you play as one kind of character usually have a much more linear kind of play than games where you play as your own character, but the latter kind of game has a much less structured story.

And as I've said, I'm not prattling on about how one is better than the other, but bringing up points between the two. You, on the other hand, are just saying, "Well, you should."

Tell me why you prefer character-driven stories to open-ended narritives, don't just tell me I'm wrong. It's disrespectful to the OP, it's disrespectful to everyone conversing on the thread, and it's disrespectful to me.

Apologies Abound
 

Amalith

New member
Mar 29, 2009
273
0
0
I agree. Perhaps it's because I'm a PnP player, but it is difficult to play an RPG without a level of freedom. Where I disagree is with how nitpicky you are. Mass Effect was fine, sure you were stuck as Commander Shepard, and the story was the same so there was little replayability in the game, but you could at least choose how you acted, and what you were. This is the same with most cRPGs, as total freedom would be impossible to code. What I have difficulty playing are games that gived you no influence, especially if it's over stats. I dislike every jRPG i've played (a very, very short list, so please accept that this sentence is uninformed and biased) because you were playing with set abilities, not what you wanted to be. The extreme linearity didn't help.
 

Icecoldcynic

New member
Oct 5, 2009
1,268
0
0
The_Logician19 said:
I don't prefer them, I just see no reason to hate on them just because it's not the kind of game you like. It's this whole stigma about how RPGs aren't allowed to have a predefined character or story that bothers me; because sometimes, that's what the developers are going for. I don't see why it detracts from the experience when that was how the game was designed to be. The simple answer is if you don't like it, don't play it, and definitely don't whine on the internet about how "it didn't include customisation or decision-making".

And I don't know where you got from any of my posts that I was saying people have to like that style of game, I'm just tired of people portraying it as some kind of 'flaw'.
 

The Eggplant

New member
May 4, 2010
760
0
0
Icecoldcynic said:
The simple answer is if you don't like it, don't play it, and definitely don't whine on the internet about how "it didn't include customisation or decision-making".
Whoa whoa whoa...who said I was whining? I dislike the concept of a non-freeform RPG character, sure...but I don't think being critical of an aspect of a game constitutes whining. If it does, well, call me a whiner...along with the majority of gaming critics in the world. And incidentally, I'm actually following your advice--I pretty much don't play games that don't allow freedom of customization anymore, or at least not RPGs without such a feature. My problem is less their existence and more that I think it somehow messes with the concept of what an RPG as a distinct game should be. Sure, maybe the devs intended you to play a predetermined role as part of their grand vision of the storyline...but by those standards, every game ever made is an RPG by the simple virtue of the fact that you're taking on the role of another. RPG games as most people think of them are to my knowledge descendants of PnP role-playing games, which definitely let you insert your own avatar into a fantastical setting...that's kinda what they were known for, in fact. Anyhoo. I'm not taking anything you're saying personally and I'm certainly not trying to attack you or anything...I just happen to think you're wrong. So meh.

[/rantoff]
 

Icecoldcynic

New member
Oct 5, 2009
1,268
0
0
The Eggplant said:
Icecoldcynic said:
The simple answer is if you don't like it, don't play it, and definitely don't whine on the internet about how "it didn't include customisation or decision-making".
Whoa whoa whoa...who said I was whining? I dislike the concept of a non-freeform RPG character, sure...but I don't think being critical of an aspect of a game constitutes whining. If it does, well, call me a whiner...along with the majority of gaming critics in the world. And incidentally, I'm actually following your advice--I pretty much don't play games that don't allow freedom of customization anymore, or at least not RPGs without such a feature. My problem is less their existence and more that I think it somehow messes with the concept of what an RPG as a distinct game should be. Sure, maybe the devs intended you to play a predetermined role as part of their grand vision of the storyline...but by those standards, every game ever made is an RPG by the simple virtue of the fact that you're taking on the role of another. RPG games as most people think of them are to my knowledge descendants of PnP role-playing games, which definitely let you insert your own avatar into a fantastical setting...that's kinda what they were known for, in fact. Anyhoo. I'm not taking anything you're saying personally and I'm certainly not trying to attack you or anything...I just happen to think you're wrong. So meh.

[/rantoff]
Well now you're just getting nitpicky. When you play a game like ME2, or Final Fantasy, you know that you're going to be playing a pre-made character with a pre-designed story. It's not some big secret or anything. Turning around and outlining that as a flaw is ridiculous then you KNOW it comes with the territory.

If you went and played a Mario game then complained about how you had to play as Mario, no-one would take you seriously, because thats a silly thing to complain about. It's the same idea here. Just because a game is in the 'RPG' genre (which is so big it's hardly even a genre anymore, since it has about 2009829723 sub-genres) does not mean it HAS to conform to your ideas of how an RPG should be.

And yes I acknowledge that the RPG genre descended from PnP RPGs, but nowadays it has evolved far past that.
 

000Ronald

New member
Mar 7, 2008
2,167
0
0
Icecoldcynic said:
The_Logician19 said:
I don't prefer them, I just see no reason to hate on them just because it's not the kind of game you like. It's this whole stigma about how RPGs aren't allowed to have a predefined character or story that bothers me; because sometimes, that's what the developers are going for. I don't see why it detracts from the experience when that was how the game was designed to be. The simple answer is if you don't like it, don't play it, and definitely don't whine on the internet about how "it didn't include customisation or decision-making".

And I don't know where you got from any of my posts that I was saying people have to like that style of game, I'm just tired of people portraying it as some kind of 'flaw'.
Fair enough; I get tired of that, too. Too many people have the idea that not liking something makes it bad (I can think of no other reason why so much hate is piled onto both France and Canada). A person likes chocolate ice cream, so they assume vanilla is evil. Or the other way around, I dunno. It happens in politics all the time, and it gets on my nerves.

It appeared to me that you were doing just that, and I responded as such. I value discussions as a way of expanding my horizons. The last thing I want is a flame war.

I...can think of nothing more to say. No, really.

Apolgoies Abound

EDIT: I lied

Icecoldcynic said:
When you play a game like ME2, or Final Fantasy, you know that you're going to be playing a pre-made character with a pre-designed story. It's not some big secret or anything. Turning around and outlining that as a flaw is ridiculous then you KNOW it comes with the territory.

If you went and played a Mario game then complained about how you had to play as Mario, no-one would take you seriously, because thats a silly thing to complain about. It's the same idea here. Just because a game is in the 'RPG' genre (which is so big it's hardly even a genre anymore, since it has about 2009829723 sub-genres) does not mean it HAS to conform to your ideas of how an RPG should be.

And yes I acknowledge that the RPG genre descended from PnP RPGs, but nowadays it has evolved far past that.
*drums fingers against desk thoughtfully*

Something that just occured to me; in a lot of more linear games (JRPGs in particular) there's a team dynamic. You're not fighting on your own.

In Oblivion, you're (usually) fighting alone; what's more, the people who are trying to help are usually a hindrance because you're not controling them.

Give me a few minutes to roll that around in my head. I'll figure out some way to...make an elequent statement out of that.

...food for thought? And apologies, of course.
 

ItsAPaul

New member
Mar 4, 2009
762
0
0
RPG doesn't = blank slate for characters, and most of the time the ones that do have terrible systems. I never get why people complain about FF not being customizable when they make it more customizable every time (haven't played 13 yet but I assume its the same way).
 

FinalHeart95

New member
Jun 29, 2009
2,163
0
0
In the sense of the word, every game is an RPG nowadays. I really don't even pay attention to that part of the game anymore, seeing as the gameplay and story affect my experience more than the absence of character creation.

Basically, I'll enjoy a game whether or not it has character creation, assuming it is a good game.
 

NewClassic_v1legacy

Bringer of Words
Jul 30, 2008
2,484
0
0
The Eggplant said:
Er, so. Opinions, Escapists? Do you enjoy being able to put your own personalities into RPGs, or is any roleplaying good roleplaying?
Part of the problem with completely free-form roleplaying is that it's functionally impossible with today's technology, programming, and so on. For there to be fully freeform possibilities, a game would have to have fully functional, sentient A.I.

For example, let's take a game like GTA IV. Even being an open-world setting, with freedom to play how the player likes, there's still a very limited number of options a player has when interacting with NPCs. NPCs can react to violence or crime by fighting or running, minor squabbles by complaining, or threatening to fight. The random NPCs have about fifteen options they can take to any given stimulus, which are pretty much limited to "Mug, fight, steal car, ignore" for the player. That means there are about three to four responses for every one thing a player can do.

Expanding on that, what if story important NPCs could be affected the same way. They can be punched, or shot in the foot. This may make the NPC like or dislike the player character more, depending on what happened to who, and so on. This would mean they story-important NPCs will need a long-term memory. So they can remember if they need to be offended at a player, or think that he's a good person. Or so offended that they'll try to kill the player on sight.

If that's the case, the player can't complete the story through that NPC, which means another potential storyline chain needs to be available through other characters. Which also need to have a preset series of cognitive thought in order to maintain suspension of disbelief. All of this needs to be planned ahead of time, and have a response for whatever stimulus they're given. It means that every potential story needs to be pre-thought, pre-examined, and then programmed. The only alternative is to make a fully functional, intelligent, free-thinking AI program that decides how characters think and act.

Another quick example. Think of the dialog chains in Mass Effect like a choose your own adventure book. Each chain is a potential future, with three options available to the player. Even keeping to the strict confines of the narrative (Soldier, three possible decisions), that means the equivalent of three chapters per decision. Seeing as there are at least five major decisions for the story, that's 15 pivotal decisions to write separate narratives for, each which have minor outlying decisions which impact the narrative in little ways, a total of probably 30 chapters worth of content. In other words, for a single game, it takes 30 chapters of writing for one of the five major paths, or a total of one hundred and fifty chapters per book. It's a lot to write and program for.

Simply put, the sort of free-form pen-and-paper narrative and role playing session is functionally impossible with today's technology. Just like we can't have writers beamed into persons' heads to write books custom for every decision the reader would make. Instead, they write characters into situations, and act as the character would act. Expecting games to be completely different isn't impossible, just nigh improbable. Maybe if we one day create truly sentient AI, maybe if we drastically increase the hardware capabilities of home computers, and maybe if we have a developer so devoted that he'll throw away time and money so endless that it would cost more to code the NPCs than the rest of the game. Until that time, though, I'm happy enough that games try to make multiple roles, so at least one can fit different players. I may not empathize with Master Chief or Gordon Freeman well, but I can clearly get behind the guy from Feel the Magic.

So, while games like Knights of the Morrow Effect try to bridge the gap and make a game's narrative more interactive, it's impossible to truly free a world that has to be programed. Although, to be fair, Animal Crossing comes closer than nearly any other game on the market.
 

Manji187

New member
Jan 29, 2009
1,443
0
0
Thaius said:
I prefer my RPGs to have a story. A story without characters sucks: it's as simple as that. That is why, though games like Oblivion and Fallout 3 may have pretty good stories outside of the main character, they will never be able to hold a candle to even the weakest Final Fantasy story. I don't give a crap about a character I create, because he is simply a vessel for me to do whatever I please within a game world. The characters in Final Fantasy have personalities, hopes, dreams, flaws... they are CHARACTERS. They are required for any semblance of a good story, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
This. So much this. Thanx for saving me the trouble of writing it myself...
Indeed, custom characters are inherently weaker than predefined characters.
 

Jandau

Smug Platypus
Dec 19, 2008
5,030
0
0
I don't really care if they let me make my own character. Both options have their merits. Designing my own char allows me to project myself onto it more, but limits what the developers can do with the char since they have to account for all the various possibilities. On the other hand, having a pre-defined char means a lot more work can go into fleshing him/her out. For instance, The Witcher had a distinctive protagonist and the game wouldn't have been better if you were allowed a few face sliders...
 

veloper

New member
Jan 20, 2009
4,596
0
0
It's better to play a non-descript custom character than a poor pre-defined character (like FF), but beyond that, it doesn't matter much.

The choices that do matter, all connect to the gameplay. The rest is just fluff.

The usual way rpgs do this is by first letting you pick a class, like mage or rogue, but I don't mind being stuck with just one (interesting) role, aslong as the feats/skills/abilities/powers/whatever you do get to pick from are: all different, equally worthwhile overal, better than the other in different situations, while still remaining significant.

Balance, hard choices and fewer no-brainers when it comes to character customization/creation, is what makes a good first step into a RPG.
 

Sammi Costello

New member
Mar 20, 2010
70
0
0
Icecoldcynic said:
Zeithri said:
Also, the point of roleplaying is not to roleplay yourself in an fictional universe. A sign of a true roleplayer is one who can adapt to any role and play it out. Hence the term: ROLEPLAY.
Seriously, this.

RPGs have been doing this for YEARS, and I swear the only reason people bring up final fantasy as a specific example is because they think it's cool to hate on JRPG's.
No, the reason people bring up Final Fantasy is because it's an example of the phenomenon and it's incredibly well known. I'm sure people could use obscure Dreamcast RPGs if they really wanted, but not many people are going to know what that game is, or be able to put the complaint into context.

It's not about hating on JRPGs; it's about finding a good example that most people will know.
 

The Eggplant

New member
May 4, 2010
760
0
0
Sammi Costello said:
No, the reason people bring up Final Fantasy is because it's an example of the phenomenon and it's incredibly well known. I'm sure people could use obscure Dreamcast RPGs if they really wanted, but not many people are going to know what that game is, or be able to put the complaint into context.

It's not about hating on JRPGs; it's about finding a good example that most people will know.
Yep. It's not that I dislike FF particularly any more than other JRPGs (like I said before, I even sorta like FFVI--and I can tolerate FFVIII too), it's that a) the FF series is massively well-known, and b) I've never been a hardcore gaming type, so my knowledge of gaming titles isn't exactly encyclopedic. Currently the only two rigs I own are my customized Toshiba Satellite and my 360, and being in school, I barely use the latter. So I'm forced to draw on tropes that might be overused, but are at least familiar to me and everyone else.

Manji187 said:
Thaius said:
I prefer my RPGs to have a story. A story without characters sucks: it's as simple as that. That is why, though games like Oblivion and Fallout 3 may have pretty good stories outside of the main character, they will never be able to hold a candle to even the weakest Final Fantasy story. I don't give a crap about a character I create, because he is simply a vessel for me to do whatever I please within a game world. The characters in Final Fantasy have personalities, hopes, dreams, flaws... they are CHARACTERS. They are required for any semblance of a good story, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
This. So much this. Thanx for saving me the trouble of writing it myself...
Indeed, custom characters are inherently weaker than predefined characters.
Ehhh, possibly...but like I've been saying, I appreciate being given the opportunity to write my own story for my characters, as it were. I don't enjoy being told "THIS IS HOW THEY WILL INTERACT WITH THE WORLD; YOUR JOB IS TO GET THEM FROM POINT A TO POINT B AND NOTHING ELSE." If I was interested in reading a robust story with strong, predefined personalities, I would...well, go read a book.

A huge part of gaming for me is the ability to insert facets of my own personality into how my character interacts with the world; hence why even characters like Gordon Freeman--hell, or even Link--are better for me than some RPG characters I've played; their silence allows you to try to get inside their heads and reason things out for yourself, rather than having the set-in-stone contents of their heads thrust at you wholesale.

That's probably why, out of all the predeveloped characters I've ever played in an RPG, I liked The Nameless One the best. Sure, you always play as him, but given the highly ambiguous nature of his very existence, who he is and how he interacts with the world is left pretty much up to you. That kind of predefined character is one I can appreciate.

Maybe I'm approaching this from the wrong perspective. I got into gaming fairly late in my life, and by contrast I've always been a heavy reader and writer...so by the time I discovered and promptly embraced RPGs, I already had a concept in my head about the distinction between READING a good story with strong characters and WRITING a good story, wherein it is my choice--my responsibility, almost--to CREATE strong characters. Gaming, being an interactive medium, feels a whole lot more like writing than reading, and RPGs especially so...so to then be told that I'll basically be forced to read aloud a story without the chance to write anything of myself into it grates somewhat, no matter how good the story actually is.

Apologies in advance for the massive post.
 

mrfusspot

New member
May 19, 2009
119
0
0
It depends on the quality of the character. If it is a good character, and has some times when I can choose what I want him to say/do, I will not have any difference of opinion between that and another RPG that allows me to create my own character. On the other hand, if its a cookie cutter character, complete with no choices throughout the game, I very likely wouldn't keep playing it.
 

Manji187

New member
Jan 29, 2009
1,443
0
0
The Eggplant said:
Manji187 said:
Thaius said:
I prefer my RPGs to have a story. A story without characters sucks: it's as simple as that. That is why, though games like Oblivion and Fallout 3 may have pretty good stories outside of the main character, they will never be able to hold a candle to even the weakest Final Fantasy story. I don't give a crap about a character I create, because he is simply a vessel for me to do whatever I please within a game world. The characters in Final Fantasy have personalities, hopes, dreams, flaws... they are CHARACTERS. They are required for any semblance of a good story, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
This. So much this. Thanx for saving me the trouble of writing it myself...
Indeed, custom characters are inherently weaker than predefined characters.
Ehhh, possibly...but like I've been saying, I appreciate being given the opportunity to write my own story for my characters, as it were. I don't enjoy being told "THIS IS HOW THEY WILL INTERACT WITH THE WORLD; YOUR JOB IS TO GET THEM FROM POINT A TO POINT B AND NOTHING ELSE." If I was interested in reading a robust story with strong, predefined personalities, I would...well, go read a book.

A huge part of gaming for me is the ability to insert facets of my own personality into how my character interacts with the world; hence why even characters like Gordon Freeman--hell, or even Link--are better for me than some RPG characters I've played; their silence allows you to try to get inside their heads and reason things out for yourself, rather than having the set-in-stone contents of their heads thrust at you wholesale.

That's probably why, out of all the predeveloped characters I've ever played in an RPG, I liked The Nameless One the best. Sure, you always play as him, but given the highly ambiguous nature of his very existence, who he is and how he interacts with the world is left pretty much up to you. That kind of predefined character is one I can appreciate.

Maybe I'm approaching this from the wrong perspective. I got into gaming fairly late in my life, and by contrast I've always been a heavy reader and writer...so by the time I discovered and promptly embraced RPGs, I already had a concept in my head about the distinction between READING a good story with strong characters and WRITING a good story, wherein it is my choice--my responsibility, almost--to CREATE strong characters. Gaming, being an interactive medium, feels a whole lot more like writing than reading, and RPGs especially so...so to then be told that I'll basically be forced to read aloud a story without the chance to write anything of myself into it grates somewhat, no matter how good the story actually is.

Apologies in advance for the massive post.
Well, take Mass Effect 2 for instance... for whatever interactivity through dialogues and "interrupt commands" you get...it is still a very rigid, linear story with a solid beginning and end point. You can be holy..or you can be a dick...but in the grand scheme of the narrative your choices mean nothing. The story is set (like in a book)...you only get to choose your dialogue...the consequences of which don't really matter. So you can decide whether Sidonis lives or dies...or whether Vido escapes or not...so what....you will still save the galaxy from the Collectors in the way Bioware wants you to.

True interactivity would have been a story you actually shape... your ACTIONS...not just words...write the story. Yahtzee had a great example of this (actually a game he planned on making but didn't): suppose you are a person in a hospital...if you choose to sit down and wait...you assume the rol of a visitor (so apparently someone you know is hospitalized)...that will become the story. If, on the other hand, you move around as if you're lost and searching for something or someone...that will become another role and thus another story.

Or what if you could choose the role another character would play. Suppose you travel in a bus...and some guy of your age is sitting beside you.. this guy is either...your brother...your best friend...an acquaintance...or a complete stranger....and you get to decide that....also you decide why you're on the bus with this person in the first place.

Mass Effect 2, definitely not a bad game, got nothing on that. Bioware can learn a thing or two on interactivity.
 

Rewold

New member
Mar 18, 2010
455
0
0
Making my own character has no affect what so ever on my enjoyment. What I look for is a good story and I don't have the need to transfer myself onto the game. Pre-made characters can be much more better.