LMAO. So a prostitute who charges is TEH BAD, but a fuck buddy is OK? So you're just quibbling over paying for it?Murrah said:
Poll: Prostitution
- Thread starter Typhusoid
- Start date
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/deborah-orr/deborah-orr-can-we-agree-on-this-you-dont-discuss-other-peoples-sex-lives-981748.htmlEggo said:
Hypocrite much?
Here is the divorce rates by Country:
http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml
Middle Eastern countries have substantially lower rates of divorce than Western nations.
And: http://www.time.com/time/2004/sex/article/the_porn_factor_in_the_01a.html
Keep in mind that the survey given may not have had porn as a factor. Plus you have no way of knowing how many affairs were prostitute related or not - but you can be certain that if there is a prostitute involved that divorce happens.
Given that divorce has always been part of our culture, the current rates are unprecedented:
http://www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/vanneman/socy441/trends/divorce.html
http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml
Middle Eastern countries have substantially lower rates of divorce than Western nations.
From: http://www.divorcewizards.com/Divorce-Statistics-Pornography.html
And: http://www.time.com/time/2004/sex/article/the_porn_factor_in_the_01a.html
Keep in mind that the survey given may not have had porn as a factor. Plus you have no way of knowing how many affairs were prostitute related or not - but you can be certain that if there is a prostitute involved that divorce happens.
Given that divorce has always been part of our culture, the current rates are unprecedented:
http://www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/vanneman/socy441/trends/divorce.html
Atleast a fuck buddy might have mild standards.Murrah said:
I say prostitution should be legal, I may not like it but until the day I take over a world/country/city/street I will not be able to tell someone what they should and shoudn't do if it has little effect on the person.(Weekly STD checks, and condoms being a requirement if prostitution would be legalized. Oh yeah, and a big burly bouncer to bounce out people that try and get more then they pay for.)
well, by the look of your post it would appear that you've never felt the need for a prostitute, unlike some of us that cant find a girl to have sex with us, prostitutes are the only option, so dont bash something you dont even need in the first place, and would you care to explain whats bad about prostitution if it were to be legalized and regulated?Murrah said:
you use the word "use" here as a bad thing when no morality is connected. of corse hookers are used, thats the POINT to going to a hooker. when a woman (or man) decides to become a hooker they arent going into the job with the idea that they are gunna find true love, they are going into it with the idea that spreading their legs will help them pay the rent. just like when i go to work every day i dont expect my boss to bring me flowers and profess his undieing love for me i expect him to rise my ass when i screw up and hand me a pay check at the end of the week, should we outlaw JOBS because people get 'used' in them?LostInTheCosmos said:
well to be fair Porn IS illegal in most of the United States. the laws reguarding it just arent enforced most of the time. and the actual wording of the federal law is so vague as to be usless. it makes referance to things like 'reasonable adults' and 'moral standards of the local community' and other unprovable shit like that.Fronken said:
good argument ....... except a few things. number 1 middle east divorce rates dont apply. husbands in more than one middle eastern countrys can kill their wives, also wives cant divorce they can only BE divorced plus there is the who other bunch of shit like wives not being allwed to leave their houses without covering their entire body head to foot, they cant drive cars, they cant even take taxi rides because they arent allowed in the company of men they arent related too without a related man WITH them. no such a good example of trying to compair divorces rates.LostInTheCosmos said:
second 350 lawyers said it so it must be fact? how many divorce lawyers are there in just the United states? how about some official US government records about reasons for divorces to back this up? not some study done by Uncle Ahabs anti-porn and deer hunting truck stop. you may in fact have a valid poit but you arent providing much actual proof to back it up, i can find 6 or 7 websights that stress divorce rates on on the rise for about 3000 OTHER reasons, who ever has an axe to grind about what ever social question can come up with all kinds of ways to spin it. hell
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27808110/
front page on MSNBC saying that divorce rates are DROPING because its cheaper to stay married. you spose that its NOT as they say and that people are just choosing to look at less porn?
and finaly. how many public figures have you known that have gotten busted for picking up a hooker and were married? now how many of those got a divorce because of it? on the other hand how many wives do you see standing by their 'man' at some press conferance while he 'confesses' to it and she 'forgives' him?
lookit i know your intentions are well ment. your obviously a Christian as am i and you feel compelled to speak out against these things. truth is i do too on one hand, but i cant help but think that at the end of the day its not MY place to decide peoples morals for them. you can lead a person to Knowledge but you cant make them THINK. its self evident that paying for sex is moraly wrong, but so is having sex outside of marriage, were you a virgin when you got married? was your wife? if the answer is NO to either of those questions than who are you to judge anyone else? do you tithe? (thats giving 10% of your income to a church for those that dont know) have you allways respected your mother and your father? have you never felt greed or lust? have you ever told a lie?
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. perhaps the most relivent teaching of Jesus to this topic.
Hi Wyatt,
I think that you are digressing into an ad hominem, which I think isn't your intention. And I hope you understand that the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is an absurd argument. Usually people use it as an STFU since the person in question is not perfect. But can you imagine a criminal using that argument to stop people from putting him in jail? That's why the argument is absurd.
Again, I think you are projecting a moral argument against judging someone's motives. No doubt a person who uses prostitutes is a person who has deep hurts. Also, prostitutes aren't necessarily bad people either - they too have their own hurts and pains. I've posted multiple times a video that puts a face into one such a person who worked at the infamous "Bunny Ranch." And you can see the hurt in her face, even with a very encouraging father.
Also, I think you can see the distinction between a job that uses your skills and a job that makes you PERSONALLY feel used. There is a big difference and I think that you can see that in how a manager treats you - either as a person of worthy skill and respect (no matter what job you perform) OR as a cog in the machine, something that you can use of and dispose when useless. Prostitution, falls in the latter category.
We can go into correlation vs. causation and all sorts of ways to invalidate data. But that's all it is data - evidence. I submit it for consideration, not proof. And all I can ask is for people to just read, think and discuss. I don't expect agreement, nor do I hope I have expressed any condemnation.
If I have, then I apologize.
I think that you are digressing into an ad hominem, which I think isn't your intention. And I hope you understand that the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is an absurd argument. Usually people use it as an STFU since the person in question is not perfect. But can you imagine a criminal using that argument to stop people from putting him in jail? That's why the argument is absurd.
Again, I think you are projecting a moral argument against judging someone's motives. No doubt a person who uses prostitutes is a person who has deep hurts. Also, prostitutes aren't necessarily bad people either - they too have their own hurts and pains. I've posted multiple times a video that puts a face into one such a person who worked at the infamous "Bunny Ranch." And you can see the hurt in her face, even with a very encouraging father.
Also, I think you can see the distinction between a job that uses your skills and a job that makes you PERSONALLY feel used. There is a big difference and I think that you can see that in how a manager treats you - either as a person of worthy skill and respect (no matter what job you perform) OR as a cog in the machine, something that you can use of and dispose when useless. Prostitution, falls in the latter category.
We can go into correlation vs. causation and all sorts of ways to invalidate data. But that's all it is data - evidence. I submit it for consideration, not proof. And all I can ask is for people to just read, think and discuss. I don't expect agreement, nor do I hope I have expressed any condemnation.
If I have, then I apologize.
The first post is talking about the women who are forced into prostitution, not prostitution in general.
i dont agree that all who uses a hooker has deep pains. nor do i agree that all hookers themselves have deep pains. i also dont agree that there is any kind of a difference between using your body for sex or someone using your body to do manual labor, in fact at the end of a long hard shift of construction (something i did in my youth) im certian id much rather have spent the day screwing for cash rather than hauling bricks up 3 flights of stairs, the work is a hell of alot eaiser and the moneys better.
now as ive read your entire argument you make many many many MORAL points against hookers. you dont speak of anything BUT a moral position and if you choose to argue this case against based on MORAL judgments than im certianly creditable when i ask you to show how your morality is justified in being used to judge anothers. if you have no sin than you can in fact cast stones in this argument about the MORALITY of prostitution. your argument about criminals not being able to get away with it isnt relivent. one is talking about laws in the case of the criminal while we are arguing a moral point. one has no connection to the other.
i say the laws against it are unjust from a legal point of view, that being that the government has no right to dictate what a person does with their body, you argue that he laws are totaly just because its immoral. since you choose to argue morality i question your own and that being the basis for your judgments.
i do like how you ended it though. information, education, expression of opinions all good things. think about why your world is the way it is and seek to change those parts you dont like. the key is too THINK though. not just blindly react because 'thats just the way it is'.
now as ive read your entire argument you make many many many MORAL points against hookers. you dont speak of anything BUT a moral position and if you choose to argue this case against based on MORAL judgments than im certianly creditable when i ask you to show how your morality is justified in being used to judge anothers. if you have no sin than you can in fact cast stones in this argument about the MORALITY of prostitution. your argument about criminals not being able to get away with it isnt relivent. one is talking about laws in the case of the criminal while we are arguing a moral point. one has no connection to the other.
i say the laws against it are unjust from a legal point of view, that being that the government has no right to dictate what a person does with their body, you argue that he laws are totaly just because its immoral. since you choose to argue morality i question your own and that being the basis for your judgments.
i do like how you ended it though. information, education, expression of opinions all good things. think about why your world is the way it is and seek to change those parts you dont like. the key is too THINK though. not just blindly react because 'thats just the way it is'.
In terms of effort, prostitution is very easy compared to hard manual labor and the returns are much higher - but there is a big difference in how sex affects the psyche than does lifting bricks.Wyatt said:
I would never make a generalization to cover "all prostitutes" or "all users of prostitutes." It is a recognition that there is a lot more to the story than simple generalizations. Calling a behavior wrong does not equate making the person to be evil.
Case in point - I judge the sin, not the sinner. Murder is wrong. But the person doing the murder may have been someone suffering from emotional and physical abuse from their attacker for months or years. Circumstances doesn't change the fact that murder is wrong, but it does give context to one's culpability.Wyatt said:
So are you saying that laws have nothing to do with morality? Some laws have more to do with custom, but a good majority of laws always have to do with morals. I think that making the case that this is an argument against laws and not against morality is splitting hairs.Wyatt said:
Murder is immoral. Therefore it is illegal. Murder is not immoral BECAUSE it is illegal.
Well, we will agree that the execution of anti-prostitution laws are flawed. In some cases, it lets on more abuse and leaves women in prostitution with no where to turn to for help. That we will agree - and I recognize the flaw of human laws.Wyatt said:
I will contend that questioning my ability to live up to my own morality is irrelevant. It is an ad hominem. Instead of focusing on the legitimacy of my arguments as they stand on their own, you are turning the focus on my character. As a reasonable person of logic, you must recognize the fallacy of this line of questioning.
Scripturally speaking, Jesus did not tell us to turn our brains off. After he said, "Ye who is without sin cast the first stone", he also said to the Prostitute, "Go and sin no more." Jesus himself did not say that "anything goes because everyone makes mistakes" but to see the human person who has flaws apart from the horror of the sin - to make distinctions between the addiction which we must hate and addict whom we must love.
I am a moral perfectionist. And as such I will always fall short of my own highest aspirations. But I will refuse to lower my aspirations because I know that level of perfection is attainable - not in that I will never have fallen trying to reach that goal, but that I will never fall when I attain it.
Just because I have fallen time and time again doesn't prove that it is impossible to walk without falling. The journey of the moral perfectionist is not about never failing on the journey, but aspiring to arrive where you will never fail again.
I will always want to be a better person than I am now. And as such I will always expect to fail. I will never be satisfied with being "good enough."
And to anyone who I would call a friend, I would ask the same of them - to always strive to be better than who they are now - in every way. Will they fail, yes. But that is not a condemnation and never was.
The argument against Prostitution isn't ultimately about them being bad people. But that they deserve much better. That the Prostitute should be honored, loved and cherished for the beauty of her heart and not just for her body. That the lonely man deserves real love, attention, and affection not bought by money.
They deserve more than that. And unfortunately, whether by choice or circumstance, that is what they are allotted.
there is no difference in the feelings of being used wether your being used because your on your back or your being used by a uncaring boss. trust me i know. and whens the last time you seen on the news where a hooker went 'postal' and started shooting everyone they worked with? most jobs are meaningless and degrading to the people working them, have you ever done a manual labor job? a factory/production job? or any other job where you get paid for what you DO and not what you KNOW?LostInTheCosmos said:
it certianly does change the fact that muder is 'wrong'. have you never heard of different degrees of 'murder' have you never heard of people commiting 'murder' and not even being charged for it due to the circumstances? from amoral standpoint takeing anyone elses life is murder without exception, the 10 commandments doesnt make any exceptions to thou shalt not kill, no thou shalt not kill except in cses of ..... X
of course one could allways argue that killing in say .... self defence isnt really murder, but the moral standpoint is to turn the other cheek even if it means your own death before your attackers. the bible (our basis for morality says it is so. Jesus calles for time and time again to die for your beliefs if its required. if you believe in do not kill than you should in fact DIE before you kill. reguardless of the circumstances. (more in a second)
(this is the more) murder isnt illegal due to morality its illegal becuse laws are needed to regualte human behavior. now ill admit that morality and the LAW overlap in many cases but one is only connected on a basic level and only in a society that shars a common basis for morality. murder being against the LAW isnt because its immoral, its because to allow it would brake down society. dont ever confuse morality for the law. morality is Gods law (in our common context), mans law (what we are talking about) has nothing to do with it except in the loosest connection.
its self evident to you that murder is moraly wrong and its against mans laws because of this, but i simply point out to you what of the people who dont share our basis for morals? is murder then NOT against the law for them? i can point out cases in other nations where what we concider immoral actions are not only sanctioned but REQUIRED under their laws. most of the hard core Muslem teachings show this. when a father kills his daughter because shes no longer a virgin for instiance, or they stone her because she leaves her house without a vale.
ohh i know your argument. and i feel the same to a large extent. your totaly right they DO diserve better. but the question is first do they WANT it, and the second is how do they GET it? you refuse to accept the fact that not all people that are invovled in this life arent there by choice. and you also make the mistake of thinking that YOUR opinions and views are more importiant than theirs when it comes to how they should live THEIR lives.
im not in the least being sarcastic when i say 'good for you' when you speak of self improvment, indeed i totaly agree that you should love the sinner but hate the sin. but here is a point that you should be made aware of.
your judgment of what is sin is getting in your way of seeing the world as it is rather than as how you think it SHOULD be. you and i can agree that sex outside of marriage is a sin. we can certianly agree that selling sex for cash is a sin (though i would argue that sex in any form outside marriage is sin adding a cash componant doesnt make it worse its just a cherry on top) we can love a hooker and hate her job. but i must point out that its rather arrogent of us, not to actualy make a judgment that shes sinning, the arrogence comes in when we seek to ACT on our moral judgment, impose uppon her and expect her to change her life to bring it into accord with OUR beliefs.
"Judge not lest you be judged" was put into the bible JUST for this reason. i hold that God doesnt want us to make judgments, he wants us to spread his word. to connect those 'lost sheep' with the teachings of the Father and let THEM make any changes they see fit too their lives.
Gods answer to things like this isnt to make a moral judgment and toss people into jail, its to take time out of YOUR life, find one of these people , teach them about Jesus and let THEM make the changes in their OWN life. not to use mans laws to IMPOSE that change on them.
if your truly worried about Sin i say to you FIRST remove the sin from your OWN life. you can wiggle all you want and use fancy words to try and ignore what im saying but its a basic argument that cant be overcome by ignoring it. in order for you to set in moral judgment of others YOUR morals must be perfect. again i refer you to the "judge not lest you BE judged" line. you do NOT get to say to a hooker, well what your doing is immoral (a sin) so we are gunna lock you up , but you dont get to point out MY sins as a defence. your saying basicaly do as i SAY and not as i DO.
certianly you can see this. ive read the bible and no place in it do i see a set of moral laws that list being a prostitue as 'worse' than not being a virgin on your wedding night, or worse than being a lier, certianly if your going to take away someones freedom based on something you would call a sin than you should also lose your freedom for sinning? if this ISNT the case than you have no MORAL authority for makeing ANY judgments. the best you can do is to get together with enough of your fellow MEN to make MANS laws and impose your will on others. not based on Gods morality but on your OWN and not done under Gods authority but on your OWN. MANS laws seek to put man on the same level as God, its formed to let US make judgments on our fellow man all the while allowing us to ignore our OWN breaking of Gods law under the guise of ranking our sins. MY sin isnt bad enough to lock me up but HERS is ..... because MY set of laws says so. but in truth Gods law has us ALL in the same docket, we wont be devided into lawgivers and those under the law when we face God , we will ALL be equil and we ALL be judged for our sins by the only perfect sinless being ever to exist ........ follow?
If you go back a few posts, I actually agree with you here. There is nothing wrong with manual labor is what I propose. What is wrong is when your boss or company makes you feel used. Even the most arduous jobs can be made meaningful and your skills (no matter how small) are valued. It becomes wrong when management treats labor merely as a commodity.Wyatt said:
A manual labor job isn't inherently treating a human person as a commodity (it depends on how labor is treated by the management - and I agree that it CAN be), I contrast that with prostitution where the human person IS the commodity.
Actually, we don't disagree here. We can agree murder is wrong, but the level of culpability is variable depending on the situation and circumstances. That is where Western Civilization implemented the "hate the sin" / "love the sinner" and put it into its judicial law system.Wyatt said:
This is where I need to point out that being too "culturally sensitive" is an exercise in absurdity. Some cultures have child brides - like Fundamentalist Mormons, Hindus and Muslims. Some cultures practice rape of women, girls and boys - like Aboriginal Australians.Wyatt said:
The issue I have is if we tend to go for "lowest common denominator" out of cultural respect, I believe it is an exercise in absurdity. I think you and I came to that agreement on the Overpopulation Thread.
Maybe as a citizen, this is true. The problem is when you are a ruler who has to impose laws, help people get a long, limit crime, etc. At that point it is your moral obligation to impose some law and order upon the populace.Wyatt said:
I think you and I would agree with St. Thomas Aquinas's approach that the law is to tolerate some evils in order not to produce greater ones. It is wrong to steal, but we do not jail a child for stealing cookies for instance. Rigorous laws can do more damage than good in many cases. And that is why this is a welcome debate on the issue of Prostitution, and as many brought to light it's inherent hypocrisy with Pornography being "legal".
I also believe that abortion is intrinsically evil. But I recognize that we cannot wholesale illegalize abortion at the current state of our culture. That would be irresponsible and introduce grave injustices greater than if abortion remained legal. There is many cultural changes that must occur prior to illegalizing abortion.
I wholly agree. Again my point above is what do you do as a rule, a law maker, or as a policeman?Wyatt said:
For myself, I talk to a lot of people about the mistakes I made in my relationships. Encourage others to not settle for second best, but to really strive for something that will truly make them joyous and happy because they deserve better.
Some of the people I dearly loved have done practically everything under the sun you can think of (and maybe some you shudder to believe are possible.) And always, I see the common theme that they don't think they deserve more or better or think much of themselves.
Like I said in my previous post. They CHOOSE what makes them happy with what they are allotted. No one can deny them that. And no God I believe in would condemn them to hell for that either. (That is why I'm Catholic and not a fundamentalist Christian.) And it is my responsibility as my brother's keeper to love them and show them something better.
I wholly disagree. If we wait till we are perfect before we help another, we will never arrive. I say that we struggle TOGETHER. We journey TOGETHER. We make mistakes TOGETHER. It is my place to talk about that lofty mountain top, the view, the goal we are to attain, not as a judgment but inspiration of the people we can become - and we journey TOGETHER.Wyatt said:
You can call me on my flaws, and as a friend I invite you to help remove the log in my eye. I'm not free of sin, but I will not cease calling a sin a sin.
What I fear is too many people hide and accept mediocrity under the premise of "Judge not" as if it was some endorsement from God to stop thinking, stop trying, and stop helping others why may not know better.
That's the best I can do as a regular person, as a human being.
But if I were a person in governance, in charge of the well being of the society, the peace of the public and the general welfare? Then I *must* judge, I *must* incarcerate what I think is dangerous to society. To fail to do so is negligence to my duties which is entrusted to me to protect the innocent.
