Poll: REALISTIC medieval combat

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Yopaz

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A Weakgeek said:
Yopaz said:
Devoneaux said:
Yopaz said:
Realistic medieval combat sounds very boring. So sword fighting is a little interesting, but making games realistic doesn't mean that the games are getting more fun. Really, think about medieval combat and imagine seeing it realistic and you'll see what I mean.
To be honest, realism is largely a gimmick anyway.

It has it's useful applications sure, but there's a reason Call of Duty isn't actually realistic: spending 90% of your time staring at what's left of your leg after a mine blew it away would fucking suck. I should know; It was a level in Depression: The Video Game.
I know this might be too soon, but dude, I love you. You managed to capture exactly why I don't like realism. Realism is the what I want to escape when I play games, not what I want to see in games. A realistic medieval game would probably mean the most dangerous thing was diseases caused by bad hygiene anyway.
Just a note for you guys, I did not say all medieval games should (I also enjoy fantasy games such as Elderscrolls, DnD, etc.) be like what I described. All I wan't is for one, or a few games to attempt at simulation. This would also be an attempt in something new ( Versatile and fun First person melee combat). Also, please be civil and don't present points like diseases killing you in a warcamp etc. I never did ask for "Life of a medieval soldier, the game", ARMA II doesn't make you patrol the desert for 6 months, its still thought to be a simulation of infantry combat.
All I am trying to say is that realism isn't as fun as some people make it out to be and even games considered realistic aren't really realistic compared to actual reality. There are games with realistic features. Realistic weapons, realistic stories, realistic properties of both structures and effects of weapons. However realism is something we rarely get to see.

You ask me to be civil and not to mention diseases. I ask you to be realistic and consider that the black plague alone wiped out almost a third of Europe's population (I might not remember this part correctly). That is realism. Not being able to move after someone stabbed you in the leg is realistic. Slipping in mud is realistic. Not having proper equipment to survive long on the battlefield is realistic.

Realism isn't fun and you don't really want a realistic medieval game. You want a medieval game with some realistic features cause realism sucks.
 

A Weakgeek

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DAMN YOU WOT FOR DERAILING THIS THREAD!!!

Yopaz said:
A Weakgeek said:
Yopaz said:
Devoneaux said:
Yopaz said:
Realistic medieval combat sounds very boring. So sword fighting is a little interesting, but making games realistic doesn't mean that the games are getting more fun. Really, think about medieval combat and imagine seeing it realistic and you'll see what I mean.
To be honest, realism is largely a gimmick anyway.

It has it's useful applications sure, but there's a reason Call of Duty isn't actually realistic: spending 90% of your time staring at what's left of your leg after a mine blew it away would fucking suck. I should know; It was a level in Depression: The Video Game.
I know this might be too soon, but dude, I love you. You managed to capture exactly why I don't like realism. Realism is the what I want to escape when I play games, not what I want to see in games. A realistic medieval game would probably mean the most dangerous thing was diseases caused by bad hygiene anyway.
Just a note for you guys, I did not say all medieval games should (I also enjoy fantasy games such as Elderscrolls, DnD, etc.) be like what I described. All I wan't is for one, or a few games to attempt at simulation. This would also be an attempt in something new ( Versatile and fun First person melee combat). Also, please be civil and don't present points like diseases killing you in a warcamp etc. I never did ask for "Life of a medieval soldier, the game", ARMA II doesn't make you patrol the desert for 6 months, its still thought to be a simulation of infantry combat.
You ask me to be civil and not to mention diseases. I ask you to be realistic and consider that the black plague alone wiped out almost a third of Europe's population (I might not remember this part correctly). That is realism. Not being able to move after someone stabbed you in the leg is realistic. Slipping in mud is realistic. Not having proper equipment to survive long on the battlefield is realistic.
And again! I'm asking for "realistic medieval combat", the combat can be realistic even if not every one has a plague and wears nothing but cloth and a hoe in his hand. If I was asking "absolutely realistic medieval warfare", then yes, things like the plague etc. should be taken into account.

Incase you read my OP fully, you know I suggested a tourney style arena game. You could make a simulation for that, and not include plague, or difficult terrain where you would slip all over (Though that would make an interesting feature, I'd actually like to try that.) and the combatants could all be knights or nobles, who could realistically own expensive weapons and armor.
 

A Weakgeek

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Abandon4093 said:
All of this falls on it's face when you consider that a single bitted axe with a spike on the rear end is pretty much suitable for all situations.

Heavy plate armour? Use the spike.

Chainmail? Use the spike.

Everything else? Hack the bone!

Also a buckler.

Well first of all, the reach could be a problem. Second, if the game would use a loadout system with a certain "money" you can spend for example, the multitasking weapons would be more expensive. If it was an action RPG type of thing, those weapons could be more expensive in general, and more rare.

Responding to your EDIT of the post i just replied to: It could be both, I used the tourney idea because it would be easier to execute. Real combat like sieges or armies clashing on a open field would ofcourse be more fun, but would be much harder to make. (Also a system with alot of hitboxes for each invidual would be pretty taxing with a large amount of players.)

My real problem with war of the roses lies in the trailer, which shows the very same "slashing at a breastplate" and having your screen filled by the blood pouring through the plate from your enemys torso.
 

demoman_chaos

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A Weakgeek said:
Few issues lad. Mail was very hard to pierce, which is why it was used from 300 bc to even now in the form of shark protection. If mail was easy to pierce, it wouldn't have been the go to armor for centuries.
Full plate armor weighs only 60-80 lbs, with the armor on the arms and legs thinner and the entire suit designed to fit the individual. With a bit of time to get used to it, the armor all but disappears on you (I know from experience with my chainmail). The helmet is all that restricts your breathing a bit (plus your vision and hearing).
 

el derpenburgo

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Jan 7, 2012
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Realistic medieval combat looks really interesting but its tough to imagine how well it could be worked into a videogame. There's definitely a lot of promise in a game that would let me literally crush someone to death. Hope that doesn't sound too psycho-ey :p

I really hope a game comes out that does for medieval combat games what skate did for skating games. In the sense that just killing a single enemy armed like yourself is, I imagine, a pretty challenging task. I've played through too many games where you can roll through armoured knights like they were wearing wet toilet paper.
 

A Weakgeek

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demoman_chaos said:
A Weakgeek said:
Few issues lad. Mail was very hard to pierce, which is why it was used from 300 bc to even now in the form of shark protection. If mail was easy to pierce, it wouldn't have been the go to armor for centuries.
Full plate armor weighs only 60-80 lbs, with the armor on the arms and legs thinner and the entire suit designed to fit the individual. With a bit of time to get used to it, the armor all but disappears on you (I know from experience with my chainmail). The helmet is all that restricts your breathing a bit (plus your vision and hearing).
Umm.. Not entirely which post of mine you are referring to. Could you help me out a little bit?
 

vivalahelvig

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Jun 4, 2009
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Swords were basically useless for late medieval period combat. It can't easily pierce armor, which everyone had by that point. It wont do much when slashing at chainmail or plate. The 2-handed sword is a different story though, some of those things were massive and could definetely lop of limbs and do damage.

But then you would have to deal with the map longbowmen and crossbow men, the latter could pierce plate armor. Then there are early guns, which werent too common but were dangerous.

Medieval combat wasnt just about swords and axes, there was a lot more, blocks of pikemen, musketeers, crossbowmen, longbowmen, double pay soldiers, germans, etc.
 

someonehairy-ish

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I wouldn't want medieval combat to be as realistic as possible. But at the same time, I get bored of the usual melee combat styles you see in games: Slow first person mashing away with a weapon (Skyrim) or 3rd person spinning around and darting all over the place (Prince of Persia) - neither of which require much in the way of tactics.

The way I figure I'd like a melee game to work would be like this:

Your left trigger button would control your left hand. Your right trigger button would control your right hand for attacking. Any combination of weapons can be used, and one hand can have a shield. The 'second triggers' or shoulder buttons would also control your respective hands and be mostly for blocking, but some kind of context-sensitive grab could work too.
The little d-pad (arrow-key things) would control targeting. Specifically, you'd auto-target the general torso area on the nearest enemy that you're looking at. The up arrow would switch you to targeting the head. The left and right would target enemy arms. The down arrow would target legs.
You'd also have a stamina bar which would deplete on blocking, attacking and possibly things like climbing or dodging. Wearing heavy armour or carrying a heavy weapon would not cause your stamina to reduce faster, but it would mean you start off with a smaller initial stamina pool.

Blocking could work one of two ways: Either it has to be timed correctly to work, but doesn't deplete much stamina, or it can held but will continuously deplete stamina.

So combat would revolve around trying to create an opening, either by coming up with a series of attacks that leave your opponents' weak spots open, or by outmaneuvering them, or by forcing them to drain all of their stamina. This would lead to quite diverse combat with a suitable range or armour and weapon options. Sometimes you'd have a protracted melee with huge chains of attacks, blocks and counterattacks. Think energy sword duel on halo but better. Other times you'd have more of a David vs Goliath scenario- your opponent has a huge maul and will crush your kneecaps in one go, but if you manage to dodge him you'll likely kill him.

I think a game working this way could match the pace of COD's multiplayer (hopefully without so much brokenness) - a series of dodges, blocks and attacks is a bit like taking a series of movements between cover and timing your shots.

Wow, big post. Well done if you actually read all of this.
 

mad825

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Mar 28, 2010
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vivalahelvig said:
Medieval combat wasnt just about swords and axes, there was a lot more, blocks of pikemen, musketeers, crossbowmen, longbowmen, double pay soldiers, germans, etc.
Musketeers in the medieval era? Maybe in Asia but definitely not in Europe. Arbalists and archers were still the ranged units on the battle field.
 

DoomyMcDoom

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If you want awesome sword combat with complete realism in application.... http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/260688528/clang?ref=search I and MANY others like me helped fund this.

otehrwise Mount and Blade Warband, and the soon to arrive war of the roses game, are awesome choices.
 

Mordekaien

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mad825 said:
Musketeers in the medieval era? Maybe in Asia but definitely not in Europe. Arbalists and archers were still the ranged units on the battle field.
Nah, they were used in 14th century as well, problem was they were prototypes, slow, unwieldy and most men didn't have training with them. But yes, I agree that main ranged force were crossbowmen and bowmen, and the guns started to be more important in 16th century.

Also, I want a simple game, like barbarian was. Can't go wrong with two musclemen in loincloths fighting with bastardswords :D
 

kortin

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The problem is, only a select minority would like that sort of game. You can only go so far in realism before a lot of people start bailing on it. :\

You also have to take into consideration that a lot of game companies make games that sell well, not exactly the games they WANT to make.
 

Ryan Hughes

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It is a good idea to create a "realistic" medieval game, but there are several issues that you would have to address. First, basically that "realism" is never reality itself, and that there will always be distortions when the media, like games, tries to portray things. For example: did you know that Alexander the Great only lost 750 men due to battle injuries during his entire drive eastward? The media tends to romanticize medieval and classical combat, but in many cases, it was well-trained and armed soldiers fighting against rag-tag combatants. Alexander lost far more men fue to construction accidents and disease then he ever lost to the sword.

Second: As far as Medieval Europe is concerned, no one has any real idea of what the combat looked like. Almost all the writings on combat techniques have been lost, and martial training was largely kept as a secret handed down through families of the aristocracy. They felt it was something like a military secret to train people widely beyond basic blocks and strikes. A colleague of mine is actually involved in an effort to reconstruct German Zweihander combat techniques from some of the few books we have on the subject that have survived. Combat techniques did not have the importance then that we seems to place on them today, even Rene Descartes once wrote a book on the art of fencing, and no copies are known to survive today. Needless to say, if a famous philosopher like Descartes -who's books are often treasured- has works on the subject that did not survive, then there is little hope to find any medieval books from martial experts.

Third: Armor is not all it is cracked up to be. There are documented cases of British conscripts being lavishly armed at great expense, only to have them toss the armor away at the first opportunity before battle. Heavy Armor looks great sitting in the hall of your castle, and even better when you wear it. But it requires tremendous training and strength to use properly. Also, at least by the 1300s, armor became something of a show, portraying heraldry and religion rather than actually serving a purpose in combat. Really, most people taking part in the actual battles kept their own armor to a minimum, just enough to protect against arrows and glancing blows.

Still, it is an interesting idea, and would likely make a great game.

*edit, whoops I made a typo. Alexander lost about 700-750 men to battle in his drive east, not 75. Well, that is still really awesome. BTW, the source is Ardant du Picq in his "Battle Studies."
 

A Weakgeek

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kortin said:
The problem is, only a select minority would like that sort of game. You can only go so far in realism before a lot of people start bailing on it. :\

You also have to take into consideration that a lot of game companies make games that sell well, not exactly the games they WANT to make.
Obviously, this concept would never be made into an AAA game. I'm not expecting a company like EA or Activison to pick this up, but even a smaller studio could do this, especially if it was an arena style fighter (Like Clang) They make sims that are way too complicated for most of us for everything else, why not medieval combat?
 

Lazarus Long

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I'm tellin' ya, the time is so very right for a respectful remake of Bushido Blade. It sounds like you're suggesting something between that and Dark Souls, and I for one would play the bejesus out of that game.
 

NightHawk21

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Shadowcreed said:
There's this new kickstarter

CLANG!!!

CLANG should bring us realism to the medieval floor, hopefully. Not sure about the swinging in my dorm room though.
Ya that's what I was going to say. Also realistic melee combat the likes of which you described are not something that's easy to do.
 

A Weakgeek

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Seems like clang is trying to do something along the lines of what I hoped for:

We would like to support the highest level of accuracy with regards to damage that we can, while balancing it with performance and development expense. Being able to target vulnerabilities in the joints of plate armor and so forth is a pretty important element of effective longsword fighting. We would love to see severed bits of our opponents flying off of them as appropriate.
That fills me with hope, though I dislike the idea of having to buy a 100? controller.
 

mad825

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Mordekaien said:
mad825 said:
Musketeers in the medieval era? Maybe in Asia but definitely not in Europe. Arbalists and archers were still the ranged units on the battle field.
Nah, they were used in 14th century as well, problem was they were prototypes, slow, unwieldy and most men didn't have training with them. But yes, I agree that main ranged force were crossbowmen and bowmen, and the guns started to be more important in 16th century.
The closest thing to gunpoweder weapons was a shitty version of a cannon. Training with guns? Look, this isn't the English Longbow.
 

Kroxile

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No, because "realistic medieval combat" would consist of not being able to move for jack and shit in your heavy armor and very clumsily swinging around your sword until you get hit once and die gruesomely. OR moving around lithely with no armor on and very clumsily swinging your sword around until you get hit once and die gruesomely.
 

Aprilgold

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Kroxile said:
No, because "realistic medieval combat" would consist of not being able to move for jack and shit in your heavy armor and very clumsily swinging around your sword until you get hit once and die gruesomely. OR moving around lithely with no armor on and very clumsily swinging your sword around until you get hit once and die gruesomely.
While I don't agree with clumsily swinging your sword or not moving on the basis that the armor while weighing thirty pounds [I am talking chain] Knights or people who were able to actually fight in that were trained too. A knight isn't some random peasant in Plate, he was trained to wear said plate around and swing whatever tool he wanted.

However your second point is mostly true because of infection and what not.

--------------------------

Without pointing out Mount and Blade, War of Roses and CLANG there are several that exist, their just all indies and aren't popular.

Honestly, War of Roses and Mount and Blade are the closest that got combat from that era correct, CLANG gets the swordplay right but I wonder how dead-on they'll get that era.