Poll: School District about to Get Sued

[azukar]

Your poll needs a "maybe/sometimes/depends" option.

 

[Jegsimmons]

should it be allowed? yes.
should it be mandatory? no.

but seriously, why does it bother people that don't believe in god? why should it bother them?

 

[Biosophilogical]

Question: was he being forced to pray?

Counter question: Did the event, in any way, promote one or more religions over other religions (or lack thereof)?

It isn't about him being forced to pray or not[footnote]Mainly because he wasn't 'forced', but if he was this would be about that[/footnote], it is that a public school showed unbalanced favour to a religion.

OT: He did the right thing trying to get the prayer removed from the graduation ceremony. They could have had a moment of silence to reflect upon their time at the school, allowing people to apply their own religious beliefs to the situation.

I went to a private Catholic school, so I'm not really sure about whether or not that girl leading fellow Christians in prayer is allowed or not (I think she was a student, so I don't know if it violates the American constitution or not. I mean, if it was her Captain's speech or something, then it is just her view, which she is allowed to express, but on the other hand, she did create a very 'pro-christian' environment by having a prayer session right there and then).

 

[Blemontea]

im having a difficult time picking sides here... For one i hate Athiest who cant accept other peoples beliefs and go along with something for a few short minutes. Deciding to instead stick their nose in it and excercise freedom of speech for the billionth time and change it cuaseing trouble for everyone else and doing more harm then good.

BUT i also hate left winged Religous nuts who believe their gods the one true god and will bible bash you in the face if you disagree. That speech was so passive aggresive it could have been a silent hill villian. My friend had a girlfriend that when she was getting Baptised they gave a similar speech, with him and her family all different religions.

So yeah, I dont know which one pisses me off more and i will be leaving now seeing as though i got work in the morning...

 

[Baneat]

im having a difficult time picking sides here... For one i hate Athiest who cant accept other peoples beliefs and go along with something for a few short minutes. Deciding to instead stick their nose in it and excercise freedom of speech for the billionth time and change it cuaseing trouble for everyone else and doing more harm then good.

BUT i also hate left winged Religous nuts who believe their gods the one true god and will bible bash you in the face if you disagree. That speech was so passive aggresive it could have been a silent hill villian. My friend had a girlfriend that when she was getting Baptised they gave a similar speech, with him and her family all different religions.

So yeah, I dont know which one pisses me off more and i will be leaving now seeing as though i got work in the morning...

Yeah those arsehole atheists who stick rigidly to a rigid constitution because it's all that can protect in scenarios such as these...

owait.

If religious people are tired of atheists speaking up when the state/church line is crossed.

Stop doing it.

 

[aashell13]

Assuming that this is a public school we're talking about, it counts as a government institution and is thus bound by constitutional laws, meaning it's illegal for it to "establish" a religion by forcing students to pray to that religion while demonizing all others, which seems to be what was going on over here.

A given person cannot go to a church and say "I don't like your religion so you have to stop!" however, people do have the right not to have religion pressed onto them (and given the captive audience nature of a school setting, it's hard to argue against the view that leading prayer in school forces religion on a student, especially in this case where he was ostracized just for standing up for his right to not have Christianity forced on him.)

Captcha: Only elaybl, only a label?

No, it wasn't right for the student to be ostracized. But allowing a prayer as a part of student participation in graduation ceremonies is not the same as establishing a particular religion; the student making the speech with prayer in it is not a school official, and the speech is merely her thoughts on high school and graduation, not an instrument of school policy. Unless the school is forcing the atheist student to recite the prayer along with the speaker or otherwise alter his behavior from what it would be in the absence of the prayer, I don't see that he has much of a case.

 

[charlest92]

The student's error is in assuming he has a constitutional right to freedom FROM religion. He does not, and neither does anyone else. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution states that congress is debarred from either establishing a national religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, not that citizens have a right to disallow religious practices that they disagree with. Nor does it obligate government at any level to ensure that citizens are untroubled by the religious practices of others which they happen to disagree with.

That said, it's hard to say if the prayer in question is illegal or not. If the ceremony has a school functionary praying as a part of his official ceremonial duties, that could be construed as an establishment of a particular religion, and thus forbidden. If the prayer is a part of, say, the valedictory speech, then that would fall under freedom of speech, and the valedictorian would be within his rights.

Assuming that this is a public school we're talking about, it counts as a government institution and is thus bound by constitutional laws, meaning it's illegal for it to "establish" a religion by forcing students to pray to that religion while demonizing all others, which seems to be what was going on over here.

A given person cannot go to a church and say "I don't like your religion so you have to stop!" however, people do have the right not to have religion pressed onto them (and given the captive audience nature of a school setting, it's hard to argue against the view that leading prayer in school forces religion on a student, especially in this case where he was ostracized just for standing up for his right to not have Christianity forced on him.)

should it be allowed? yes.
should it be mandatory? no.

First off I am going to openly say that I'm atheist.
Indeed the student has a constitutional right to 'mention' god in his or her speach, BUT not to lead a full-fledged CHRISTIAN religious prayer. The freedom of religion portion of the first amendment also implies a freedom from religon in goverment or a public place, your freedom of religon extends right up to the point that it is forced upon those who do not want it around them.

There is a similar arguement given to me by my government teacher of my senior year in high school. I have the right to punch you in the face right up until my hand makes contact with your face then I'm violating your right not to get slugged. When applied to this argument it changes into. You have the right to speak of your beliefs right up until those that are listening feel that you are violating their right to not have it forced upon them or their children. This only applies to areas like: schools, government buildings, and privately owned property. You can preach all you like in parks and the side of the road.

 

[AdumbroDeus]

You know, now that I think about it, what if this kid was Muslim? Or Hindi? or any religion not Christian? Then would it be okay for him to protest? A lot of people really have it in for atheists, but this is an issue that affects all non-christian beliefs.

Or expoused views contrary to a particular Christian sect. Happens all the time to us catholics.

The student's error is in assuming he has a constitutional right to freedom FROM religion. He does not, and neither does anyone else. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution states that congress is debarred from either establishing a national religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, not that citizens have a right to disallow religious practices that they disagree with. Nor does it obligate government at any level to ensure that citizens are untroubled by the religious practices of others which they happen to disagree with.

That said, it's hard to say if the prayer in question is illegal or not. If the ceremony has a school functionary praying as a part of his official ceremonial duties, that could be construed as an establishment of a particular religion, and thus forbidden. If the prayer is a part of, say, the valedictory speech, then that would fall under freedom of speech, and the valedictorian would be within his rights.

The valedictorian speech is not released prior to the cerimony, all he would've had access to was the program itself.

QED it violations the establishment clause.

 

[TheEldestScroll]

I go to a public school in the shit town of Tucson. We have a Christian club, and I think thats cool. There is a time and place for everything, and if even the shittiest public school district is willing to accept that, it goes to show how outspoken athiest nazis are assholes. Most my friends are athiest. I have had Jehovah's Witness friends, and need I remind that Tucson is swarming with Mormons so that goes without saying. My friends have never been offended by prayer.

I think the issue here is that this athiest was surrounded by christians so he felt sensitive and vunerable. So i guess the point I'm trying to make is that its cool to be athiest, or morman or whatever. But there is always one outspoken ***** that ruins things for everyone, and those people can just rot.

 

[johnzaku]

I say it's completely acceptable to pray, but not as part of a school function.

I mean, you can thank god as part of your thank you speech, but I don;t feel the dean should have everyone say a prayer. There's a big difference

 

[Tdc2182]

I'm confused; Is it saying that kids are not allowed to pray or that kids are being forced to pray?

Either way, shit's whack bro.

 

[malestrithe]

What I love is all the atheists bitching about how the religious people are forcing their beliefs on them, so they turn around and try to push a law through preventing the religious from practicing their religion. So basically it's unacceptable for someone else to tell them what to do, but totally okay for them to tell someone else what to do. I'd like to shoot these fucking hypocrites in the head with a 12-gauge shotgun.

The people you should blame for this are not athiests, but the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah's Witnesses had 40 separate cases leveled against them over their religious views and won most of them. Thanks to the witnesses, everything including school prayer, has been truncated.

Whatever you want to say about Atheists, please remember that the laws do not protect atheists. Rather, they protect minority religions from the majority.

Also, not very Christian of you to want to shoot people in the head with a 12 gauge. Remember that whole love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek thing you keep telling others? Does that not apply to you?

 

[malestrithe]

Yes it's okay and should be permitted. Public schools are funded by taxpayers, therefore taxpayers should have the right to practice their beliefs, and their children should also have the right to practice their beliefs, in public schools and other publicly funded places. The same thing goes for kids not being allowed to bring bibles to school or whatever. This is just another example of the government forgetting who they work for; us. That's not to say people should be able to do whatever they want, but when it comes to restricting basic freedoms, such as freedom of religion, people should be allowed to make their own decisions about practicing their beliefs on school property.

Would be true, but you missed the part where the prayer was at a public assembly and the issue is not the prayer itself. The issue is whether or not the school has the right to have the prayer at a public event, As long as that school accepts and uses tax payer money, the answer is not it cannot. No matter how you spin it, having the prayer is a endorsement of one religious over another by a public entity.

The country is not founded on the principle of Majority rules. It is founded on the issue of equality for all. Since everyone has a different religion, the government is protecting all of its citizens from persecution simply by stating that we are officially neutral The government is working for the benefit of all of its citizens simply by not allowing the prayer in the first place. Otherwise, we would have to devote time to everyone. How about we give time to all other religions, say a prayer for the Muslims, the Jewish, the Pagans, the Shintoists or the Buddhists. In order to make this absolutely fair, either everyone plays or nobody plays.

Love how you think the government should only work to protect your beliefs and no one else's.

 

[JJMUG]

What I love is all the atheists bitching about how the religious people are forcing their beliefs on them, so they turn around and try to push a law through preventing the religious from practicing their religion. So basically it's unacceptable for someone else to tell them what to do, but totally okay for them to tell someone else what to do. I'd like to shoot these fucking hypocrites in the head with a 12-gauge shotgun.

The people you should blame for this are not athiests, but the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah's Witnesses had 40 separate cases leveled against them over their religious views and won most of them. Thanks to the witnesses, everything including school prayer, has been truncated.

Whatever you want to say about Atheists, please remember that the laws do not protect atheists. Rather, they protect minority religions from the majority.

Also, not very Christian of you to want to shoot people in the head with a 12 gauge. Remember that whole love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek thing you keep telling others? Does that not apply to you?

Actually that is very Christian, the bible says you should kill those who do not believe.
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_verses_in_the_Bible_advocate_killing_non_believers#ixzz1N3bMyTZk


If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_verses_in_the_Bible_advocate_killing_non_believers#ixzz1N3bZqx9H

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

As many are saying, it should not be forced. But really guys, read the First Amendment. Really, it is not what you think it is. ?Of? =/= ?From?

However, it should be allowed by any students and teachers who wish to do so together.

It was helpful to me to know that there was a group of like-minded people I could turn to for assistance

 

[Twilight_guy]

Yes sue the school. Your kids totally don't need those biology books and art classes that the school had to slash budgets to keep. Nope, teachers can totally teach with no supplies or books. Come on people, if you have to raise a stink at least sue someone who isn't constantly hurting for cash. eesh.

My question: Can he opt not to participate in the ceremony at all? Can he choose to have a muslum prayer prayer?
I can understand if the school is trying to put a particular religionious spin on this or is forcing people to participate. It seems a bit extreme and self-important to try and take the whole thing down though. I don't know if that was his intention or not of course but I don't see why choosing not to listen is such a hard thing. He is clearly in the minority and is interrupting an integral part of a tradition. I can see how he'd be upset and torn between participating and being nervous but I've sat though long boring school rituals before and so has everyone else. He can't really expect a largely religious school to bend for his singular will so I don't see why he cant argue for some other special accommodations. Why not just let him quietly leave during the prayer? This seems like an awfully big mess for what should be easily handled by school officials without much fuss.

 

[Bags159]

He can't really expect a largely religious school to bend for his singular will so I don't see why he cant argue for some other special accommodations. Why not just let him quietly leave during the prayer? This seems like an awfully big mess for what should be easily handled by school officials without much fuss.

Yes he can because they are breaking the law. It doesn't matter if they're a largely religious school; they're still publicly funded. What is up with everyone and using majority rule as the deciding factor here? I don't know anyone who likes speed limits; maybe we should just get rid of them eh?

Yeah, suing a school probably isn't the best course of action, but the law is the law. How do you cause change in a school? Threaten their funding.

 

[Twilight_guy]

He can't really expect a largely religious school to bend for his singular will so I don't see why he cant argue for some other special accommodations. Why not just let him quietly leave during the prayer? This seems like an awfully big mess for what should be easily handled by school officials without much fuss.

Yes he can because they are breaking the law. It doesn't matter if they're a largely religious school; they're still publicly funded. What is up with everyone and using majority rule as the deciding factor here? I don't know anyone who likes speed limits; maybe we should just get rid of them eh?

Yeah, suing a school probably isn't the best course of action, but the law is the law. How do you cause change in a school? Threaten their funding.

I'm not saying that majority makes it right for them to do that, I'm saying that majority makes it impracticable to stop having the pray. He said that he knows of three atheist people in town (or was it his class?). If he is in such a small minority the better option is to, instead of changing the ceremony, simply let him leave and return after the prayer. It takes two second to set him up in location where he can simply slip out when he's uncomfortable and come back in, noone gets sued and the whole mess is solved. Instead we have to have a big debate about it and have incendiary arguments over the whole thing. (I looked through some of those comments on that web page and my god its like rednecks praising religion but in reverse). There is no reason to make a big mess out of this when the administrations could have easily fixed the situation.

 

[ImmortalDrifter]

I don't really see what the big deal is. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. If they punish you for not doing it, then sue them.

Well my opinion has already been stated, guess I'll go gamble.

 

[Shadeovblack]

I find it funny that many people say "Let them pray, who's it gonna hurt?"
And many people also say "They can be gay, as long as they're not flamboyant about it."
How about "They can pray, as long as they're not flamboyant about it." and "Let them be gay, who's it gonna hurt?"

I'm putting that in my sig!