Poll: School District about to Get Sued

[Sparkytheyetti]

By the US Constitution their is a separation of church and state. Education is mandated by state. Therefore, logically there should be no prayer. Personally i don't care. Everyone is entitled to freedom of religion. However, religion should not be pressed upon to other individuals. And besides you can always not bow your head. Which is what i used to do at school.

This kid would get sh*t no matter what he did. But he deserves props for upholding the constitution and being FAIR and EQUAL about written law. Reminds me of a science teacher i had that was also a pastor. He would do speech's all the time in class. Finally one day in the middle of class i said " Mr. Whatshisface, i think i should be learning about the atomic structure of carbon, than paraphrases from a book that believes the world is only 2000 years old and that man and dinosaur lived together. As mandated by the law." Needless to say a religious student was pissed and bitched. I talked with the teacher and the principal. I said i was right regardless of what they wanted to do, so follow the states law as much as i had to follow the rules of the government established educational facility. They both said i was an ass in saying it, but i made a very "educated" argument and sent me on my way. Best day ever when you get to rock the establishment once and a while.

 

[infohippie]

Slightly off-topic, but this thread reminded me - is the Pledge of Allegiance still done in US schools? I've heard about it in books that were set in US high schools and it always struck me as kinda creepy.

OT: If some students want to pray, no reason they shouldn't be allowed to. However, teachers should not be able to organise any kind of prayer through schools or in them due to their positions of authority and influence over the students.

 

[Sparkytheyetti]

Slightly off-topic, but this thread reminded me - is the Pledge of Allegiance still done in US schools? I've heard about it in books that were set in US high schools and it always struck me as kinda creepy.

OT: If some students want to pray, no reason they shouldn't be allowed to. However, teachers should not be able to organise any kind of prayer through schools or in them due to their positions of authority and influence over the students.

Only elementary school students say it. That ends bout 5th or 6th grade. At least when i was in.

 

[alandavidson]

I have a question, if you really don't care what people believe, then why do you care if they pray, I mean how will that affect you in anyway?

I have the same question.

I have an answer based on speculation.

He lives in the Bible Belt, he's not religious. I imagine there's a lot of religious practice, and religious propaganda going around him.

Not having the misfortune of living in a Bible Belt, I can't speak from personal experience here, but maybe he feels suffocated, since saying you're an atheist in the bible belt is akin to social suicide. Maybe he just wants the school to adhere to the law, since religion is pretty much everywhere else.

I live in "buckle" of the Bible Belt, and it is not at all social suicide to say that you're an atheist. People generally let you be and don't roam the halls of schools hunting you down and hounding you about Jesus. Separation of church and state is very much as work here.

As far as "religious propaganda", unless you count cheesy church signs and kids doing carwashes to help raise money for some orphanage somewhere every weekend in the summer, there's really not a lot of that either.

It bears pointing out that while many CLAIM to be Christians, most are not practicing (do not attend church on a regular basis, serve in outreach, evangelize, etc).

So if he feels suffocated, it's a self-imposed strangulation. You are just as free to be an atheist in the Bible Belt as you are elsewhere.

As far as the prayer goes, the school is not forcing him to pray. He does not have to observe the religious functions that others partake in. Just as I do not join when my Muslim friends pray to Allah in my presence, I do not stop them from doing so because I do not believe that it is right to stifle anyone's religious freedoms. If you are completely confident that there is no God, then someone praying to a non-existent being should do nothing more than humor you.

The kid is suing to have "freedom from religion", which is a way of attempting to force Christians to believe what he does. How then is he any different from those he believes are forcing religion on him?

 

[Korolev]

If the individual student wants to pray, I don't have a problem.
If a whole bunch of individual students want to pray on campus or in the cafeteria, I don't have a problem.
If religious students want to wear symbols of their religion (crosses, jewish caps, head-wear), then I don't have any problems.

If the administrative staff exhorts and actively tell students to pray, THEN I HAVE A PROBLEM.

You want to pray? Fine. I don't. And I don't like being told that I have to. If you think you have a right to ask people to pray, then I reserve to right to stand up in the middle of the prayer and scream at the top of my lungs "BALONEY!".

 

[alandavidson]

It was just speculation, I have no idea what he goes through everyday, whether he's just an intolerant bigot or a regular guy who took a complaint a little too far out of frustration.

Not knowing the guy, I can't really say. Just an assumption on my part, he probably leans more on the "bigot" side. Which, if true, is really sad because there really is no need to freak out so much about religion being practiced around you.

But in the words of the great Jack Nicholson

 

[Shadowtek]

I'd say it's ok if people in the school want to have a big group prayer, but it should be perfectly acceptable for people to sit out. Saying that no-one should pray is just as bad as saying everyone should.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[DocMcCray]

This man is a hero.

Not because he got prayer taken out of a ceremony, but because he stood up for his constitutional right to be free from Religion.

I agree that prayer isn't a big deal. If you don't believe in a god, then you believe they're just talking to themselves. However, Religion has no place in an institution of education. The emotional ties one has to their religion brings to much of a bias into the system.

He may be hated by his community, but he's a hero in my book.

See, this is what irritates me the most.

It is "Freedom *OF* Religion" not "Freedom *FROM* Religion"

Some how this got twisted into "You can't pray in front of me because I find it offensive."

Anyone who doesn't want to be involved in the praying process, just don't pray! One person speaking up because he doesn't like prayer and trying to force others not to pray just because he doesn't share their beliefs goes against the letter and intent of the US Constitution.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

I go to a Christian school and I'm an atheist and they very specifically say every time they pray. If you are not the sort of person who prays, please maintain a respectful silence, and I do. That is how it should be managed in the cases of religious schools. But in the case of a public school, religion shouldn't even be there.

 

[Lance Arrow]

So you're telling me this guy got kicked out of his home and run out of town because he stood up for what he believed in?

Shit's going down...

 

[malestrithe]

See, this is what irritates me the most.

It is "Freedom *OF* Religion" not "Freedom *FROM* Religion"

Some how this got twisted into "You can't pray in front of me because I find it offensive."

Anyone who doesn't want to be involved in the praying process, just don't pray! One person speaking up because he doesn't like prayer and trying to force others not to pray just because he doesn't share their beliefs goes against the letter and intent of the US Constitution.

Despite what you want to think, the issue is not the prayer itself. You are free to pray in schools and no one is taking that right from you.

The issue is where the prayer took place. At a publicly funded school and at a school event. The kid chose to say his prayer in front of a graduation ceremony, which is a school function. Because the school allowed it in the first place, that is tantamount to this school publicly endorsement one religion over another, which is against the Constitution. That is what the pending lawsuit is going to be about.

The First Amendment does not protect your right to pray. It protects you from the government imposing one ideology over yours. Allowing the kid to pray in front of a graduation means this government funded school is advocating one religion over another, which again is a violation of the constitution.

 

[Small Waves]

I'm not saying that majority makes it right for them to do that, I'm saying that majority makes it impracticable to stop having the pray. He said that he knows of three atheist people in town (or was it his class?). If he is in such a small minority the better option is to, instead of changing the ceremony, simply let him leave and return after the prayer. It takes two second to set him up in location where he can simply slip out when he's uncomfortable and come back in, noone gets sued and the whole mess is solved. Instead we have to have a big debate about it and have incendiary arguments over the whole thing. (I looked through some of those comments on that web page and my god its like rednecks praising religion but in reverse). There is no reason to make a big mess out of this when the administrations could have easily fixed the situation.

He only knows two people who are atheists. There could very well be many more who kept their mouths shut (and who can blame them since the ONE person who did speak up is now skipping town due to the backlash).

He shouldn't have to leave because a PUBLIC school is ILLEGALLY incorporating religion (separation of church and state, the latter which funds the public schools). If they want to introduce prayer, they better be prepared to say "bye-bye" to their public funding. The majority opinion is irrelevant if they oppress or harm small groups (tyranny of the majority). It's why the gay marriage ban in California was overturned.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

This is a graduation ceremony people! It's illegal to have a mass prayer. If those students and teachers felt the need to hold a prayer they had every right to do so AFTER the ceremony by holding a private one somewhere else. Graduation ceremonies are strictly non religious and there's a reason why prayer is not allowed in school. What this guy is doing is upholding federal law, basically. I'm glad he threatened to contact the ACLU. Prayer and religion should not be encouraged nor discouraged by any school. Remember, schools are supposed to be neutral on things that have nothing to do with learning.

 

[Pat8u]

My school has morning announcement prayers but it is a catholic school
Ot: I don't really understand what this is about

 

[NightHawk21]

I think The reason most people disagree with it is because when you dont believe something but everyone around you is doing something like praying but you dont it feels incredibly awkward and uncomfortable. Imagine being a devout christian graduating from a school where they do a Muslim prayer at the end of it. That and its a Public school paid for by the Federal Government which has deemed Prayer in School is illegal because the Government is supposed to be secular and the education system is part of the Government.

Edit: Also the bible itself says that you should pray in private rather than public. Matthew 6.6

So I'm running under the assumption that prayer is illegal in your US public school system, based on the comments on this board. If that's the case than a Religious prayer has no place in a public school. That being said if its a prayer that doesn't cater to any one religion, well than the kid is being a dick.

As for your edit on Matthew 6.6, its taken extremely out of context.

 

[PinochetIsMyBro]

I have no problem with it as long as they aren't trying to force other people to do it.

 

[Volkov]

The OP's poll is very poorly phrased.

Is it OK to do so in a school, but privately? Sure.
Is it OK to do so in a school, but in something along the lines of a prayer club? Sure.
Are both of the above still "in a school"? Yes.

Is it OK to conduct a prayer at a school-wide event (in a public school)? No, it's against the law.

So I voted "yes", but only because of how the question was phrased.

I say this as a Christian by the way. I wholeheartedly support people like this kid, and other atheists and religious people who advocate for a stricter enforcement of the separation of church and state, and very much dislike people like this kid's schoolteacher who bashed him for speaking out. And my being a Christian is in no way at odds with this. Then again, I am not from the bible belt.

 

[Nurb]

Schools are not the place for "official" spirituality, but can have after-school student led religious groups. Parents can teach religious views if they want.

Prayer at graduation is pretty much the same as an atheist getting up there and saying how great it was kids could graduate from school without the need for a god before handing out diplomas.

It's not a time to push beliefs, just celebrate an achievement.

 

[SvenSirupSon]

Lets see...
I think i heard somewhere I was against the American Constitution somehow :3
But since I am luckily NOT American (smiles with glee)
then Lets see if it would actually be smart thing to do?

Now, giving a country with many religious members...
Then it would not be equal to cheer one religion over the other by the state.
That would be a problem, I assume it was a Christian Prayer, because Its America!
So no, dont make inequality between your citizens and you made a good choice

 

[Torrasque]

Well, if its illegal in his state, then its a pretty easy decision: it should have been removed from his grad.
Personally, I went to a Catholic school, but none of us gave a damn about any of the pomp and religious ceremony. Yes, I am an atheist, and yes I went to a church for my grad, but I don't really care. It didn't really offend me, so /shrug.

But this kid didn't want a prayer at his grad. Whatever his reasoning, thats fine. He shouldn't have to have a prayer at his grad if he didn't want one, and if it is fucking illegal in his state, to have one. The fact that everyone around him makes such an insanely big deal about this all, is not surprising, but really really fucked up.

Good luck kid.