Poll: Should feminists be involved with anime mediums?

[Armadox]

snip
Anime/manga/related are that good because the artist who create they have the balls to do whaever they feel, that include there sexual fantasies, even miyasaki can't stop to put panty shots in his movies(again the self proclaim feminist).

I will refer you to my defense of Kill la Kill as an excellent show with the fanservice enhancing the experience

Fanservice is a tool and if you use it well, I have no issue. You use it as poorly as some shows I've mentioned and I will punch it in the face

yes because this costume have to be like this:
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/329/1/3/kill_la_kill_satsuki_by_cirenk-d6vo4bx.jpg

Actually, yes. Those costumes had to look like that exactly for them to have the exact effect on you. Does it have to look like that to tell the story? No, every story can be told differently. But for that story to be told in a way for you to see it as that art in and of itself, it must look like it does. Changing it would simply be telling a different story.

So it does, and you have the feelings toward it because it does.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Kill la kill isn't using fan service as a sexual thrill for the watcher its just a thing that happens in the world unlike most naime that will focus the camera on the naughty bits with a sound effect.
Alos

That and the thematic elements (look up Shuten Doji vs. State Shinto by Charles Dunbar for an analysis of the show) are tied directly to the show and allegory can be made.

The show is capable of using fanservice in a way that empowers it's characters and strengthen it's themes

 

[Queen Michael]

A question to the people arguing above me:

Do you think fanservice anime, cutesy moe moe anime, ecchi anime, or fanservice ing eneral should be removed from the genre as morally wrong or creatively poor? These shows are clearly targeted at a certain set of people and other demographics have a high probability of inherently not liking them.
Hang on, let me get to the point here. Some of these anime could exclude women (among others). Is that neccesarily bad? There are some that are clearly targeted FOR women (Free! anyone?), so there's something for everyone. Is any of this really all that bad?

The way I see it is this: Fanservice in series made specifically for the sake of fanservice -- like Monster Musume or See Me After Class -- then I'm absolutely fine with it. Everybody needs some shlock every now and again and I like a pretty girl just as much as anybody else. But when it's in a series where it's got nothing to do with anything else, and it just looks really malplaced, yeah, I wouldn't mind it getting lost.

Let me put it this way. I can assume that most of the people in this thread has seen Puella Magica Madoka, right? And we all really like it, right? Right. Now imagine that the series had been exactly like it is, except there'd been a male character who constantly was shirtless for very contrived reasons, and who hung around Madoka & pals just so there'd be shirtlessness for female and gayman viewers. Wouldn't you feel that the show would have worked better as a whole without the manservice?

They do it in FREE and nobody was bitching.

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2013/08/16/free-totally-merciless-even-to-fujoshi/
I haven't watched FREE! so I'll need you to elaborate a bit.

Okay, I'm not sure I see what you're trying to say. Is your point that FREE! was full of manservice? 'Cause I knew it was a manservice show.

 

[Queen Michael]

]

Let me put it this way. I can assume that most of the people in this thread has seen Puella Magica Madoka, right? And we all agree it's a great show, right? Right. Now imagine that the series had been exactly like it is, except there'd been a male character who constantly was shirtless for very contrived reasons, and who hung around Madoka & pals just so there'd be shirtlessness for female and gayman viewers. Wouldn't you feel that the show would have worked better as a whole without the manservice?

Honestly, that would've been fucking hilarious.

Don't worry, mate. They're bound to make another spinoff series/movie/manga/refrigerator that features it at some point.

 

[Leoofmoon]

[quote="Izanagi009" post="18.868109.21724952"

That and the thematic elements (look up Shuten Doji vs. State Shinto by Charles Dunbar for an analysis of the show) are tied directly to the show and allegory can be made.

The show is capable of using fanservice in a way that empowers it's characters and strengthen it's themes[/quote]

And I agree but as I side in my last post, to a outsider it just looks like its boobs for boobs sake. the ninja girl anime I showed has a moment where there eating sea weed rolls and there or more less just fellatioing it in a advertisement, i can easily see people looking at that and saying "right never going to watch that!" like I did.

I am not saying Kill la kill is bad for it but you need to keep in mind of a outsiders view to both the show and anime.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

snip
Anime/manga/related are that good because the artist who create they have the balls to do whaever they feel, that include there sexual fantasies, even miyasaki can't stop to put panty shots in his movies(again the self proclaim feminist).

I will refer you to my defense of Kill la Kill as an excellent show with the fanservice enhancing the experience

Fanservice is a tool and if you use it well, I have no issue. You use it as poorly as some shows I've mentioned and I will punch it in the face

yes because this costume have to be like this:
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/329/1/3/kill_la_kill_satsuki_by_cirenk-d6vo4bx.jpg

See thematic arguments for clothing being oppression and restraint, lack of inhibition as a source of power, and the scene with Ragyo as an allegory for US imposing policies on Japan made by Charles Dunbar in his presentation (small part of discussion here [http://www.studyofanime.com/2014/12/12-days-of-anime-schoolgirls-and.html])

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2014/02/01/kill-la-kill-sexy-bathtime-groping-anime/

I will admit that the bath scene and the first introduction of Senketsu were questionable at best but the former does illustrate Ragyo's depravity and control over Satsuki

In addition, unlike Cross Ange which had scenes like this, it actually developed it's cast at this point and made them memorable and thought out compared to Ange and her gang.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

A question to the people arguing above me:

Do you think fanservice anime, cutesy moe moe anime, ecchi anime, or fanservice ing eneral should be removed from the genre as morally wrong or creatively poor? These shows are clearly targeted at a certain set of people and other demographics have a high probability of inherently not liking them.
Hang on, let me get to the point here. Some of these anime could exclude women (among others). Is that neccesarily bad? There are some that are clearly targeted FOR women (Free! anyone?), so there's something for everyone. Is any of this really all that bad?

In short, no but with caveats

In long: eroticism and good writing are not mutually exclusive. Again, I would argue Kill la Kill as a combination of both. However, if I was to only take one or the other, writing would be my focus because I don't feel like I'm being treated like a chimp. The distribution of quality among shows with fanservice kind of weighs against it with most of them having poor to even antagonistic bad writing (second arc of SAO anyone) and the number of shows with both good writing and fanservice are slim in the grand scheme of things.

Seeing as the elimination of fanservice is entirely impossible, I would like to at least have people ask for better characterization and plot in their fanservice shows than just well, fluff.

For good or bad, some people like just having fluff. I would prefer better writing in all things, but others don't, sometimes not even the creators prefer it, which is the most important part. Some people just prefer to have all the effort and resources go into the fluff they're expecting. I know it sounds a ridiculous, but atleast there's plenty of good stuff.

 

[Queen Michael]

snip
Anime/manga/related are that good because the artist who create they have the balls to do whaever they feel, that include there sexual fantasies, even miyasaki can't stop to put panty shots in his movies(again the self proclaim feminist).

I will refer you to my defense of Kill la Kill as an excellent show with the fanservice enhancing the experience

Fanservice is a tool and if you use it well, I have no issue. You use it as poorly as some shows I've mentioned and I will punch it in the face

yes because this costume have to be like this:
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/329/1/3/kill_la_kill_satsuki_by_cirenk-d6vo4bx.jpg

See thematic arguments for clothing being oppression and restraint, lack of inhibition as a source of power, and the scene with Ragyo as an allegory for US imposing policies on Japan made by Charles Dunbar in his presentation (small part of discussion here [http://www.studyofanime.com/2014/12/12-days-of-anime-schoolgirls-and.html])

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2014/02/01/kill-la-kill-sexy-bathtime-groping-anime/

Thanks for the link! I needed another anime to watch since I finished Madoka.

 

[raikagetaicho]

A question to the people arguing above me:

Do you think fanservice anime, cutesy moe moe anime, ecchi anime, or fanservice ing eneral should be removed from the genre as morally wrong or creatively poor? These shows are clearly targeted at a certain set of people and other demographics have a high probability of inherently not liking them.
Hang on, let me get to the point here. Some of these anime could exclude women (among others). Is that neccesarily bad? There are some that are clearly targeted FOR women (Free! anyone?), so there's something for everyone. Is any of this really all that bad?

The way I see it is this: Fanservice in series made specifically for the sake of fanservice -- like Monster Musume or See Me After Class -- then I'm absolutely fine with it. Everybody needs some shlock every now and again and I like a pretty girl just as much as anybody else. But when it's in a series where it's got nothing to do with anything else, and it just looks really malplaced, yeah, I wouldn't mind it getting lost.

Let me put it this way. I can assume that most of the people in this thread has seen Puella Magica Madoka, right? And we all really like it, right? Right. Now imagine that the series had been exactly like it is, except there'd been a male character who constantly was shirtless for very contrived reasons, and who hung around Madoka & pals just so there'd be shirtlessness for female and gayman viewers. Wouldn't you feel that the show would have worked better as a whole without the manservice?

They do it in FREE and nobody was bitching.

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2013/08/16/free-totally-merciless-even-to-fujoshi/
I haven't watched FREE! so I'll need you to elaborate a bit.

Okay, I'm not sure I see what you're trying to say. Is your point that FREE! was full of manservice? 'Cause I knew it was a manservice show.

the point is that fanservice is present for the both sides.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

snip
Anime/manga/related are that good because the artist who create they have the balls to do whaever they feel, that include there sexual fantasies, even miyasaki can't stop to put panty shots in his movies(again the self proclaim feminist).

I will refer you to my defense of Kill la Kill as an excellent show with the fanservice enhancing the experience

Fanservice is a tool and if you use it well, I have no issue. You use it as poorly as some shows I've mentioned and I will punch it in the face

yes because this costume have to be like this:
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/329/1/3/kill_la_kill_satsuki_by_cirenk-d6vo4bx.jpg

See thematic arguments for clothing being oppression and restraint, lack of inhibition as a source of power, and the scene with Ragyo as an allegory for US imposing policies on Japan made by Charles Dunbar in his presentation (small part of discussion here [http://www.studyofanime.com/2014/12/12-days-of-anime-schoolgirls-and.html])

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2014/02/01/kill-la-kill-sexy-bathtime-groping-anime/

Thanks for the link! I needed another anime to watch since I finished Madoka.

I would recommend it, it has quite a bit of thematic elements and it's characters are fleshed out enough that the fanservice is a non issue.

 

[raikagetaicho]

snip
Anime/manga/related are that good because the artist who create they have the balls to do whaever they feel, that include there sexual fantasies, even miyasaki can't stop to put panty shots in his movies(again the self proclaim feminist).

I will refer you to my defense of Kill la Kill as an excellent show with the fanservice enhancing the experience

Fanservice is a tool and if you use it well, I have no issue. You use it as poorly as some shows I've mentioned and I will punch it in the face

yes because this costume have to be like this:
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/329/1/3/kill_la_kill_satsuki_by_cirenk-d6vo4bx.jpg

See thematic arguments for clothing being oppression and restraint, lack of inhibition as a source of power, and the scene with Ragyo as an allegory for US imposing policies on Japan made by Charles Dunbar in his presentation (small part of discussion here [http://www.studyofanime.com/2014/12/12-days-of-anime-schoolgirls-and.html])

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2014/02/01/kill-la-kill-sexy-bathtime-groping-anime/

I will admit that the bath scene and the first introduction of Senketsu were questionable at best but the former does illustrate Ragyo's depravity and control over Satsuki

In addition, unlike Cross Ange which had scenes like this, it actually developed it's cast at this point and made them memorable and thought out compared to Ange and her gang.

yes, because that is the only way to ilustrate that.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

A question to the people arguing above me:

Do you think fanservice anime, cutesy moe moe anime, ecchi anime, or fanservice ing eneral should be removed from the genre as morally wrong or creatively poor? These shows are clearly targeted at a certain set of people and other demographics have a high probability of inherently not liking them.
Hang on, let me get to the point here. Some of these anime could exclude women (among others). Is that neccesarily bad? There are some that are clearly targeted FOR women (Free! anyone?), so there's something for everyone. Is any of this really all that bad?

The way I see it is this: Fanservice in series made specifically for the sake of fanservice -- like Monster Musume or See Me After Class -- then I'm absolutely fine with it. Everybody needs some shlock every now and again and I like a pretty girl just as much as anybody else. But when it's in a series where it's got nothing to do with anything else, and it just looks really malplaced, yeah, I wouldn't mind it getting lost.

Let me put it this way. I can assume that most of the people in this thread has seen Puella Magica Madoka, right? And we all agree it's a great show, right? Right. Now imagine that the series had been exactly like it is, except there'd been a male character who constantly was shirtless for very contrived reasons, and who hung around Madoka & pals just so there'd be shirtlessness for female and gayman viewers. Wouldn't you feel that the show would have worked better as a whole without the manservice?

I get what you mean. However, if it disruntled me that much I would've shrugged and moved on with a lower opinion of it with an attitude of "would've been better if it didn't do this, but ah well". The creator liked and put it in, that's their perogaative and their creation. Let 'em go nuts.

 

[raikagetaicho]

snip
Anime/manga/related are that good because the artist who create they have the balls to do whaever they feel, that include there sexual fantasies, even miyasaki can't stop to put panty shots in his movies(again the self proclaim feminist).

I will refer you to my defense of Kill la Kill as an excellent show with the fanservice enhancing the experience

Fanservice is a tool and if you use it well, I have no issue. You use it as poorly as some shows I've mentioned and I will punch it in the face

yes because this costume have to be like this:
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/329/1/3/kill_la_kill_satsuki_by_cirenk-d6vo4bx.jpg

See thematic arguments for clothing being oppression and restraint, lack of inhibition as a source of power, and the scene with Ragyo as an allegory for US imposing policies on Japan made by Charles Dunbar in his presentation (small part of discussion here [http://www.studyofanime.com/2014/12/12-days-of-anime-schoolgirls-and.html])

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2014/02/01/kill-la-kill-sexy-bathtime-groping-anime/

Thanks for the link! I needed another anime to watch since I finished Madoka.

Watch rahxephon, is better.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

snip
Anime/manga/related are that good because the artist who create they have the balls to do whaever they feel, that include there sexual fantasies, even miyasaki can't stop to put panty shots in his movies(again the self proclaim feminist).

I will refer you to my defense of Kill la Kill as an excellent show with the fanservice enhancing the experience

Fanservice is a tool and if you use it well, I have no issue. You use it as poorly as some shows I've mentioned and I will punch it in the face

yes because this costume have to be like this:
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/329/1/3/kill_la_kill_satsuki_by_cirenk-d6vo4bx.jpg

See thematic arguments for clothing being oppression and restraint, lack of inhibition as a source of power, and the scene with Ragyo as an allegory for US imposing policies on Japan made by Charles Dunbar in his presentation (small part of discussion here [http://www.studyofanime.com/2014/12/12-days-of-anime-schoolgirls-and.html])

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2014/02/01/kill-la-kill-sexy-bathtime-groping-anime/

I will admit that the bath scene and the first introduction of Senketsu were questionable at best but the former does illustrate Ragyo's depravity and control over Satsuki

In addition, unlike Cross Ange which had scenes like this, it actually developed it's cast at this point and made them memorable and thought out compared to Ange and her gang.

yes, because that is the only way to ilustrate that.

Again, questionable and I will admit that those scenes were the few I disliked

 

[Vault101]

TC, you need to learn to take joy in others' ignorance. You need to laugh at them for missing out on the joy of the VN or other material due to their ignorant fanaticism, not be offended. They're like children, they don't know any better and end up hurting themselves in the process. Nothing to be mad over. Just like how you wouldn't be mad a child spilled water all over your pants, you shouldn't be mad at a feminist for seeing something like Kana Imouto and calling you a pervert. Yes, there's sex that's there for titillation in the VN, there's also gut-wrenching depressing and amazing writing and story, too.

well thats just richer than a billionaires triple choc fudge cake

analysing things and looking at their context in society is not juvenile its the opposite of juvenile, to think that the media we consume is not worth analysis and critical thought is ridiculous

and (as if I really need to point this out) does not actually stop someone from enjoying things, sure we all have our limits, I know I have mine, but if I decide I don't want to veiw something because I feel its either sexist or so boringly generic I'd rather do something else then thats my choice and a perfectly Valid one

this mentality of "STAP CRITICIZIN MAH THANGS!!!" (of which spawned a "movement" we shall not mention) is juvenile and childish

 

[raikagetaicho]

snip
Anime/manga/related are that good because the artist who create they have the balls to do whaever they feel, that include there sexual fantasies, even miyasaki can't stop to put panty shots in his movies(again the self proclaim feminist).

I will refer you to my defense of Kill la Kill as an excellent show with the fanservice enhancing the experience

Fanservice is a tool and if you use it well, I have no issue. You use it as poorly as some shows I've mentioned and I will punch it in the face

yes because this costume have to be like this:
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/329/1/3/kill_la_kill_satsuki_by_cirenk-d6vo4bx.jpg

See thematic arguments for clothing being oppression and restraint, lack of inhibition as a source of power, and the scene with Ragyo as an allegory for US imposing policies on Japan made by Charles Dunbar in his presentation (small part of discussion here [http://www.studyofanime.com/2014/12/12-days-of-anime-schoolgirls-and.html])

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2014/02/01/kill-la-kill-sexy-bathtime-groping-anime/

I will admit that the bath scene and the first introduction of Senketsu were questionable at best but the former does illustrate Ragyo's depravity and control over Satsuki

In addition, unlike Cross Ange which had scenes like this, it actually developed it's cast at this point and made them memorable and thought out compared to Ange and her gang.

yes, because that is the only way to ilustrate that.

Again, questionable and I will admit that those scenes were the few I disliked

Just to remenber they are mother and daugther.

 

[Queen Michael]

A question to the people arguing above me:

Do you think fanservice anime, cutesy moe moe anime, ecchi anime, or fanservice ing eneral should be removed from the genre as morally wrong or creatively poor? These shows are clearly targeted at a certain set of people and other demographics have a high probability of inherently not liking them.
Hang on, let me get to the point here. Some of these anime could exclude women (among others). Is that neccesarily bad? There are some that are clearly targeted FOR women (Free! anyone?), so there's something for everyone. Is any of this really all that bad?

The way I see it is this: Fanservice in series made specifically for the sake of fanservice -- like Monster Musume or See Me After Class -- then I'm absolutely fine with it. Everybody needs some shlock every now and again and I like a pretty girl just as much as anybody else. But when it's in a series where it's got nothing to do with anything else, and it just looks really malplaced, yeah, I wouldn't mind it getting lost.

Let me put it this way. I can assume that most of the people in this thread has seen Puella Magica Madoka, right? And we all really like it, right? Right. Now imagine that the series had been exactly like it is, except there'd been a male character who constantly was shirtless for very contrived reasons, and who hung around Madoka & pals just so there'd be shirtlessness for female and gayman viewers. Wouldn't you feel that the show would have worked better as a whole without the manservice?

the point is that fanservice is present for the both sides.


They do it in FREE and nobody was bitching.

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2013/08/16/free-totally-merciless-even-to-fujoshi/
I haven't watched FREE! so I'll need you to elaborate a bit.

Okay, I'm not sure I see what you're trying to say. Is your point that FREE! was full of manservice? 'Cause I knew it was a manservice show.

Um... You quoted my reply, but you didn't say anything. You might wanna add a little content to avoid mod wrath.

 

[Queen Michael]

TC, you need to learn to take joy in others' ignorance. You need to laugh at them for missing out on the joy of the VN or other material due to their ignorant fanaticism, not be offended. They're like children, they don't know any better and end up hurting themselves in the process. Nothing to be mad over. Just like how you wouldn't be mad a child spilled water all over your pants, you shouldn't be mad at a feminist for seeing something like Kana Imouto and calling you a pervert. Yes, there's sex that's there for titillation in the VN, there's also gut-wrenching depressing and amazing writing and story, too.

well thats just richer than a billionaires triple choc fudge cake

analysing things and looking at their context in society is not juvenile its the opposite of juvenile, to think that the media we consume is not worth analysis and critical thought is ridiculous

and (as if I really need to point this out) does not actually stop someone from enjoying things, sure we all have our limits, I know I have mine, but if I decide I don't want to veiw something because I feel its either sexist or so boringly generic I'd rather do something else then thats my choice and a perfectly Valid one

this mentality of "STAP CRITICIZIN MAH THANGS!!!" (of which spawned a "movement" we shall not mention) is juvenile and childish

Criticism is one thing, forcibly superimposing a poltical agenda over it and censoring what you personally find unacceptable is quite another, but of course, we all know how much feminists HATE to ban things they don't agree with right? Because GTA totally didn't get taken from people who legitimately wanted to buy it from people who never played it because they personally disagreed with parts of it, right?

Please, don't bullshit. We all know that there are at least a few radical branches of feminism out there that long ago moved away from criticism and towards various forms of censorship, denying the purchase and/or creation of things they personally don't agree with to people who would have legitimately enjoyed it.

GTA V was removed from one store franchise. I don't think a single person ended up not playing GTA V because of the Target petition.

 

[mecegirl]

A question to the people arguing above me:

Do you think fanservice anime, cutesy moe moe anime, ecchi anime, or fanservice ing eneral should be removed from the genre as morally wrong or creatively poor? These shows are clearly targeted at a certain set of people and other demographics have a high probability of inherently not liking them.
Hang on, let me get to the point here. Some of these anime could exclude women (among others). Is that neccesarily bad? There are some that are clearly targeted FOR women (Free! anyone?), so there's something for everyone. Is any of this really all that bad?

The way I see it is this: Fanservice in series made specifically for the sake of fanservice -- like Monster Musume or See Me After Class -- then I'm absolutely fine with it. Everybody needs some shlock every now and again and I like a pretty girl just as much as anybody else. But when it's in a series where it's got nothing to do with anything else, and it just looks really malplaced, yeah, I wouldn't mind it getting lost.

Let me put it this way. I can assume that most of the people in this thread has seen Puella Magica Madoka, right? And we all really like it, right? Right. Now imagine that the series had been exactly like it is, except there'd been a male character who constantly was shirtless for very contrived reasons, and who hung around Madoka & pals just so there'd be shirtlessness for female and gayman viewers. Wouldn't you feel that the show would have worked better as a whole without the manservice?

They do it in FREE and nobody was bitching.

No, they don't do it in Free. Free fits Queen's first category when it comes to fan service in anime, not the second. It is a show specifically made for fan service (and one of the few created for an audience that is attracted to men). I would agree that it's just like his examples except that all the characters in Free are anatomically correct (like damn..I know the characters in Monster Musume are mythical creatures but some of the art in that book is way out of wack. Where See Me After Class is bad in the generic "this artist can't draw boobs" sort of way), and there is the excuse that as swimmers they'd be half naked anyway. But anyone who watched the first clip Kyoani did for Free(before it was even an anime) and didn't understand that it was primarily about the fan service needs to learn about context clues. I mean just look at it.

That is all that the Free anime started as and all that it would have been had the demand for more not been so high.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

snip
Anime/manga/related are that good because the artist who create they have the balls to do whaever they feel, that include there sexual fantasies, even miyasaki can't stop to put panty shots in his movies(again the self proclaim feminist).

I will refer you to my defense of Kill la Kill as an excellent show with the fanservice enhancing the experience

Fanservice is a tool and if you use it well, I have no issue. You use it as poorly as some shows I've mentioned and I will punch it in the face

yes because this costume have to be like this:
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/329/1/3/kill_la_kill_satsuki_by_cirenk-d6vo4bx.jpg

See thematic arguments for clothing being oppression and restraint, lack of inhibition as a source of power, and the scene with Ragyo as an allegory for US imposing policies on Japan made by Charles Dunbar in his presentation (small part of discussion here [http://www.studyofanime.com/2014/12/12-days-of-anime-schoolgirls-and.html])

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2014/02/01/kill-la-kill-sexy-bathtime-groping-anime/

Could you maybe not post a link to a porn website? I know they have a front page but that place doesn't exactly have a good reputation.