Poll: Skyrim: The Armour complaint.

[Moonlight Butterfly]

But since you can do that there is no point to playing the game properly....

Do you see what I'm saying.

Why even bother playing a more challenging (or realistic? not sure if that's the best word) way when there is a 'better' way of doing it. It just makes you feel like a schmuck.

I want to have to work for boss kills and progression. Because for me that is what 'the game' is. Being able to cheese though everything and you may aswell play the game on 'god mode' (If games still have those...*tries to rehide age*)

Well, the nice thing about Elder Scrolls is that it supports both of those playstyles. That's sort of what makes it unique. If you take out stuff like levitation, invisibility, calm spells, stealth, alchemy, destruction spells more interesting than "do X damage to Y" and so on, then it's basically just a worse version of Mount and Blade.

And more to the point, it's a single-player game. More options are never bad in a single player game, because anyone who doesn't want to experience those options can choose not to use them.

But that's my point, they are there. So you feel like an idiot for doing things the proper way when you could just be making things easy for yourself.

I don't know it just kind of ruins the game for a me a little that the game is so easily breakable.

But how does that affect you at all? That would be like saying that I feel like an idiot for playing an Elder Scrolls game when I could be playing Minecraft. The possibility that you can play an Elder Scrolls game multiple ways is kind of the point of the game, and taking out stuff like levitation, invisibility, calm spells, stealth, alchemy, and so on just so that people feel more comfortable playing the game a certain way makes absolutely no sense to me.

It's like there is a god mode in the game and if you don't use it then you are moron becuase why would you make the game hard for yourself while everyone else is breezing through it with 100% chameleon or whatever.

Whereas if the game is 'fixed' it make it more satisfying to play it 'properly'.

I really don't know how else to explain my point...

Lets say Minecraft, an actual scenario I saw on these forums

Say 'guy A' makes a server and he and his friends build a town and then 'guy B' says why are we mining for everything when 'guy A' can just spawn it for us.

Guy A says 'Well thats not playing the game properly'... and the rest of the server say 'well we are leaving then becuase that's what everyone else is doing'

It's like that but with 1 person....bad analogy? probably... but I'm not sure how else to explain.

So wait... does that mean you don't want people in Minecraft to be able to make servers that spawn stuff if they want to? Honestly, if it doesn't affect the way you play, why ask to have it removed? The whole "I don't like this feature that I can choose not to use, so take it away from people who are having fun with it plox" argument is not something I get, TBH.

no....

I mean.

If that option is in the game why bother to play it properly

in the simplest terms.

 

[Kahunaburger]

no....

I mean.

If that option is in the game why bother to play it properly

in the simplest terms.

Fun? That's the reason anyone chooses any playstyle in Elder Scrolls games. That's why the whole "my fun is okay, but your fun will have to go" argument doesn't work for me.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

no....

I mean.

If that option is in the game why bother to play it properly

in the simplest terms.

Fun? That's the reason anyone chooses any playstyle in Elder Scrolls games. That's why the whole "my fun is okay, but your fun will have to go" argument doesn't work for me.

That's not what I'm trying to say...

I'm saying that the fact the game is breakable takes away any point of playing the game without those abilities. Why would you make it harder for youself?

I don't think you really getting what I'm saying so we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Kahunaburger]

no....

I mean.

If that option is in the game why bother to play it properly

in the simplest terms.

Fun? That's the reason anyone chooses any playstyle in Elder Scrolls games. That's why the whole "my fun is okay, but your fun will have to go" argument doesn't work for me.

That's not what I'm trying to say...

I'm saying that the fact the game is breakable takes away any point of playing the game without those abilities. Why would you make it harder for youself?

I don't think you really getting what I'm saying so we will have to agree to disagree.

No, I get what you're saying, I just am not convinced by it. Do you think that a game having an easy difficulty takes away the point of playing the game on a harder difficulty?

 

[Littlee300]

The thing with this is the player will have to hope for the 'big treasure chest' at the end of the dungeon or quest instead of being able to take the occasional jewels of armor. This doesn't sit right with me but the money system leans toward 'collection' instead of 'scoring big'

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

no....

I mean.

If that option is in the game why bother to play it properly

in the simplest terms.

Fun? That's the reason anyone chooses any playstyle in Elder Scrolls games. That's why the whole "my fun is okay, but your fun will have to go" argument doesn't work for me.

That's not what I'm trying to say...

I'm saying that the fact the game is breakable takes away any point of playing the game without those abilities. Why would you make it harder for youself?

I don't think you really getting what I'm saying so we will have to agree to disagree.

No, I get what you're saying, I just am not convinced by it. Do you think that a game having an easy difficulty takes away the point of playing the game on a harder difficulty?

I think that's different from taking a certain skillset.

It would just be nice to have to actually work at your character for them to be really good rather than have someone somewhere use 100% chameleon and have a better char.

:/

Kind of takes away from the experience a bit for me. Probably just me though. :/ and maybe Evil by the sounds of it.

 

[Kahunaburger]

no....

I mean.

If that option is in the game why bother to play it properly

in the simplest terms.

Fun? That's the reason anyone chooses any playstyle in Elder Scrolls games. That's why the whole "my fun is okay, but your fun will have to go" argument doesn't work for me.

That's not what I'm trying to say...

I'm saying that the fact the game is breakable takes away any point of playing the game without those abilities. Why would you make it harder for youself?

I don't think you really getting what I'm saying so we will have to agree to disagree.

No, I get what you're saying, I just am not convinced by it. Do you think that a game having an easy difficulty takes away the point of playing the game on a harder difficulty?

I think that's different from taking a certain skillset.

It would just be nice to have to actually work at your character for them to be really good rather than have someone somewhere use 100% chameleon and have a better char.

:/

Kind of takes away from the experience a bit for me. Probably just me though. :/ and maybe Evil by the sounds of it.

But the point is that you don't even need 100% chameleon to make most of the threats in the game trivial. A massive chunk of the spells do that by themselves haha, as does the entire stealth playstyle. The only way to balance a game that includes flying, invisibility, mind control, stealth, etc. is to remove those options, and if they do that all they'll succeed in doing is turning Elder Scrolls into a worse version of Mount and Blade.

And honestly, what's the point of saying "I have the most powerful character?" Elder Scrolls isn't supposed to be some kind of dick-measuring contest - it's supposed to be fun

 

[madster11]

When are they going to stop bloody removing things and start ADDING things?

It pisses me off that this game seems to be made specifically for the console-tards that ruin all good things these days. 'ohhh, nooo, i don't want option, i don't want menus, i don't want to have to do things other than click an attack button' fuck off back to Halo and let us have our GOOD games back.

Bethesdas respect as a company is going out the damn window, simply because they seem to think their target audience is 13yo children with xboxs instead of the real RPG players with $2k computers that are on equal levels of power to those used on an older space shuttle.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

no....

I mean.

If that option is in the game why bother to play it properly

in the simplest terms.

Fun? That's the reason anyone chooses any playstyle in Elder Scrolls games. That's why the whole "my fun is okay, but your fun will have to go" argument doesn't work for me.

That's not what I'm trying to say...

I'm saying that the fact the game is breakable takes away any point of playing the game without those abilities. Why would you make it harder for youself?

I don't think you really getting what I'm saying so we will have to agree to disagree.

No, I get what you're saying, I just am not convinced by it. Do you think that a game having an easy difficulty takes away the point of playing the game on a harder difficulty?

I think that's different from taking a certain skillset.

It would just be nice to have to actually work at your character for them to be really good rather than have someone somewhere use 100% chameleon and have a better char.

:/

Kind of takes away from the experience a bit for me. Probably just me though. :/ and maybe Evil by the sounds of it.

But the point is that you don't even need 100% chameleon to make most of the threats in the game trivial. A massive chunk of the spells do that by themselves haha, as does the entire stealth playstyle. The only way to balance a game that includes flying, invisibility, mind control, stealth, etc. is to remove those options, and if they do that all they'll succeed in doing is turning Elder Scrolls into a worse version of Mount and Blade.

And honestly, what's the point of saying "I have the most powerful character?" Elder Scrolls isn't supposed to be some kind of dick-measuring contest - it's supposed to be fun

I think that's the word I'm looking for 'balance'

To me a more balanced game is more fun. I think Todd Howard said that it was difficult for them to make effective encounters when the character was essentially in god mode.

I think removing them will actually improve the game and people who bemoan it will actually enjoy it more.

I guess we will find out when the game is released.

 

[WorldFree55]

When are they going to stop bloody removing things and start ADDING things?

Dragon Shouts, Perks, Enchants, new game engine=less bugs, a more developed leveling system, and many more.

Maybe it's YOU who is not even paying attention to what Bethesda is bringing to the table with Skyrim. Instead, your careless for those adjustments and only look for what their taking out even if what their removing is much more tedious and the game being better without it overall.

 

[Kahunaburger]

But the point is that you don't even need 100% chameleon to make most of the threats in the game trivial. A massive chunk of the spells do that by themselves haha, as does the entire stealth playstyle. The only way to balance a game that includes flying, invisibility, mind control, stealth, etc. is to remove those options, and if they do that all they'll succeed in doing is turning Elder Scrolls into a worse version of Mount and Blade.

And honestly, what's the point of saying "I have the most powerful character?" Elder Scrolls isn't supposed to be some kind of dick-measuring contest - it's supposed to be fun

I think that's the word I'm looking for 'balance'

To me a more balanced game is more fun. I think Todd Howard said that it was difficult for them to make effective encounters when the character was essentially in god mode.

I think removing them will actually improve the game and people who bemoan it will actually enjoy it more.

I guess we will find out when the game is released.

Honestly, "balance" is kind of a buzzword for Elder Scrolls. You're never going to get balance between characters that can fly, turn invisible, control minds, sneak past people, brew potions, etc. and characters that instead opted to get really good at hitting people with pointy sticks. The ability to win a fight <<<<< the ability to pick when and where fights happen, and that's never gonna change.

Compare Morrowind and Oblivion - they clearly tried to "balance" Oblivion, and instead they got a game that was just as unbalanced and less fun to play.

 

[kickyourass]

Alright those of yiou who are whining about the "Customization" or whatever, hands up how many of you choose your armor for the look instead of the stats.
This is not important, this is a stupid thing to ***** about, if they restrict your choice of race, then yes, I will be pissed right alongside the rest of you. But not having the pants seperate from the shirt, is not worth your time.

 

[Hansinkdu]

More is being added then removed, believe me. Please have faith in this company, they know what they are doing. Besides, almost every single one of you complaining is going to go out and buy it anyways. Pants or not I will be buying this game and playing it.... pants or not!

Captcha: Capt. APlate .... You Landlubbers will embrace the pants-less Bethesda game and enjoy thee selves.

 

[Mr. Grey]

Even worse, Skyrim is going to use GFWL.

Where did you hear that? Because I haven't heard them using Games for Windows Live and from what I can tell from the images set on Amazon is that it's just Game for Windows, I see no Live in the banner. That and with them having switched to Steam with New Vegas and Brink, wouldn't it be more likely that they would use Steam?

I can't find anything on them using Games for Windows Live, so I'd like to know where you heard that.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

But the point is that you don't even need 100% chameleon to make most of the threats in the game trivial. A massive chunk of the spells do that by themselves haha, as does the entire stealth playstyle. The only way to balance a game that includes flying, invisibility, mind control, stealth, etc. is to remove those options, and if they do that all they'll succeed in doing is turning Elder Scrolls into a worse version of Mount and Blade.

And honestly, what's the point of saying "I have the most powerful character?" Elder Scrolls isn't supposed to be some kind of dick-measuring contest - it's supposed to be fun

I think that's the word I'm looking for 'balance'

To me a more balanced game is more fun. I think Todd Howard said that it was difficult for them to make effective encounters when the character was essentially in god mode.

I think removing them will actually improve the game and people who bemoan it will actually enjoy it more.

I guess we will find out when the game is released.

Honestly, "balance" is kind of a buzzword for Elder Scrolls. You're never going to get balance between characters that can fly, turn invisible, control minds, sneak past people, brew potions, etc. and characters that instead opted to get really good at hitting people with pointy sticks. The ability to win a fight <<<<< the ability to pick when and where fights happen, and that's never gonna change.

Compare Morrowind and Oblivion - they clearly tried to "balance" Oblivion, and instead they got a game that was just as unbalanced and less fun to play.

That's subjective. I personally had more fun playing Oblivion then I did playing morrowind. 9 separate characters with well close to two thousand hours played in Oblivion, to morrowinds 3 Characters and 300-400 hours of gameplay. Heck my Daggerfall playthrough with 1 character is over 400 hours.

Thats not to say I didn't enjoy Morrowind, I just preferred Oblivion.

Also you can't argue that Morrowind was more fun. I vividly recall my first encounter with cave rats in Morrowind for the 1st fighters guild quest (I went the warrior road as a Nord and had Major skills in Long Sword and Axes, had a nice Chitin Long Sword). Nothing quite says "you're the chosen one" like been owned by a fucking rat.

Oblivion was a little more gentle to start with, but even with the retarded leveling system I never felt overpowered or underpowered. In Morrowind I'm either completely useless or clicking to win... there was no middle ground in any of my playthroughs.

 

[WorldFree55]

When are they going to stop bloody removing things and start ADDING things?

Dragon Shouts, Perks, Enchants, new game engine=less bugs, a more developed leveling system, and many more.

Maybe it's YOU who is not even paying attention to what Bethesda is bringing to the table with Skyrim. Instead, your careless for those adjustments and only look for what their taking out even if what their removing is much more tedious and the game being better without it overall.

They removed several abilities/spell schools to add in shouts and perks. Chances are there was more removed than added there. Enchants have always been around. So basically they removed a bunch of stuff to give us a prettier engine?

Sugarcoat it all you want, Bethesda games have been getting simpler and simpler since Oblivion. I mean, even at that point I thought it couldn't get any worse. But then Fallout 3 came along, and it was pretty much one of the shortest and easiest RPGs I had ever played.

Even worse, Skyrim is going to use GFWL.

It's going to need a MASSIVE amount of modding to make it a game truly worth playing.

no they didn't. The only thing they changed if you can even call it remove was change Mysticism and classify it as spells, which is what it was supposed to be in the first place. Again, your lack of attention is showing a really ignorant way of thinking towards something that is not even true.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Also you can't argue that Morrowind was more fun.

Uh, yes I can. Can you fly in Oblivion? Or jump across a continent? Or make your own magic items without dropping hilarious amounts of money? Are the quests and factions any good? Is it remotely as atmospheric as Morrowind?

(Of course, half of these are subjective. That's the point. YMMV on whether it's more fun to play with Oblivion's balanced melee/stealth, or Morrowind's more open magic and enchanting system. YMM also V on whether you prefer pseudo-Europe or a place where people live in giant crab shells and mushrooms. They're both equally unbalanced, though.)

But more to the point, it's completely possible to make Skyrim so that it incorporates the strengths of both games. I am just confused by people who say "I don't want to fly on my playthrough, so I don't want anyone to fly on their playthrough."

 

[fingerbang143]

Well the guy said that the cuirasses are really long anyway so it's shouldn't be to big of a deal

 

[WorldFree55]

Even worse, Skyrim is going to use GFWL.

Where did you hear that? Because I haven't heard them using Games for Windows Live and from what I can tell from the images set on Amazon is that it's just Game for Windows, I see no Live in the banner. That and with them having switched to Steam with New Vegas and Brink, wouldn't it be more likely that they would use Steam?

I can't find anything on them using Games for Windows Live, so I'd like to know where you heard that.

He's just making baseless assumptions without any actual facts where what he is really trying to say is "I WANT A MORROWIND REMAKE! CHANGES SUCK AND EVERYTHING SHOULD GO BACK TO THE DAYS OF DnD EVEN IF RPG GAMES WOULD BE WORSE FOR IT!".

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Also you can't argue that Morrowind was more fun.

Uh, yes I can. Can you fly in Oblivion? Or jump across a continent? Or make your own magic items without dropping hilarious amounts of money? Are the quests and factions any good? Is it remotely as atmospheric as Morrowind?

(Of course, half of these are subjective. That's the point. YMMV on whether it's more fun to play with Oblivion's balanced melee/stealth, or Morrowind's more open magic and enchanting system. YMM also V on whether you prefer pseudo-Europe or a place where people live in giant crab shells and mushrooms. They're both equally unbalanced, though.)

But more to the point, it's completely possible to make Skyrim so that it incorporates the strengths of both games. I am just confused by people who say "I don't want to fly on my playthrough, so I don't want anyone to fly on their playthrough."

You're right, you can say it... but it doesn't make any more true/false.

Todd howard already explained why they won't be bringing back levitation (and mark/recall for similar reasons).

Mark and recall is one where it's a lot of fun, but like levitation, was removed so we could design better gameplay spaces and scenarios.

We were really limited in Morrowind because the player could recall or levitate out of many situations and break them. There was a lot of good gameplay and level design work that we just couldn't do and now we can.

Back then it seemed like many good ideas we had were shot down when another designer would say "oh yeah, I just levitate or recall away." So we got rid of them

The more detailed and visceral their worlds become, the more difficult it becomes to balance such powerful spells. Those spells would dictate where and how events play out, rather then events laying out options to the player. Removing them was giving the devs more freedom to plot out quests and events, not to handicap your travel options.

The only other things getting cropped are:

*Acrobatics and Athletics (Getting merged into a new skill).

*Mysticism (other Magic classes will incorporate what mysticism offers).

*Hand to hand (Not sure about this, but I think it's going to be directly modified by strength and/or endurance, and not be given a skill of its own).

*Greaves are now part of Chest armour (but we're promised more armour varieties).

It is possible keep all these... but not practical essentially.

Anyway, we need to stop looking at what they taking out and instead look at what they are adding.

Enchantment is returning as a skill, so expect improvements in that regard. This will be a magical based crafting system.

Smiting is brand spanking new. This is what Armourer should have been. Not only can you repair your weapons, but apparently you can reforge your favourite weapons with new metals and ores to give them unique boosts and traits.

Instead of Blunt and Blade, they are replacing them with 1 handed and 2 handed combat. Within each skill there are perks for specialising with Blunt weapons or bladed weapons.

On that note, Branching Perk trees are been added. This should add a butt load of customisation options for fine tuning your ideal character.

Alchemy is now a "stealth" skill (Magic and Combat both get Enchanting and Smiting respectively as crafting skills, so stealth was given Alchemy... makes sense to me).

I also heard they are combining the "transport" systems of both Oblivion and Morrowind... you can travel on foot, on Mounts (confirmed), pay for carriage transport (mentioned by Todd, not confirmed), or fast travel (a given). Not sure what to make of this, but I think it's a nice compromise, appealing to both the casual Gamer and the avid Role player.

Finally getting beards and other cosmetic options (scars and tattoos I think are in it).

We still don't know much else about the game, so it's far too early to say yay or nay to any of this. But I'm optimistic about it.