Poll: Stannis vs. Daenerys - Better claim?

[rcs619]

Stannis is just another pretender to a throne that his brother unjustly usurped from the rightful king Aerys Targaryen. By blood and by right, the only person with any true claim to the throne is Daenerys Targaryen, Stormborn, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, The Unburnt, The Breaker of Chains, True Queen of the Andals and the First Men, and Mother of Dragons.

Seriously though, Stannis would be a terrible king. He's ever bit impersonal and uninspiring as Robert was a drunken doofus. He'd probably be a damned good Hand, or head of the army though. He's the kind of guy who can latch onto a goal, or a mission and beat it into utter submission, not someone who should be sitting at the head of the decision-making process. He could rule people, but he could never endear himself to them in any way. Daenerys though, she's got that bit in spades. She just needs the right circle of advisers to keep her youth and inexperience from borking things up too much.

Also, well, the dragons are kind of a clincher if she can ever get a feel for controlling the damned things. A few more years and they'll be as big as small houses. Except, houses that fly and breathe fire and eat the badguys.

But yeah, in short... Woo! Go team Daenerys. Targaryen/Lannister 2016. You can't spell empire without Imp.

 

[WolfThomas]

Stannis is just another pretender to a throne that his brother unjustly usurped from the rightful king Aerys Targaryen. By blood and by right, the only person with any true claim to the throne is Daenerys Targaryen, Stormborn, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, The Unburnt, The Breaker of Chains, True Queen of the Andals and the First Men, and Mother of Dragons.

Unjustly usurped ser? Westeros is a feudal society, there is give and take between King and Lord. Aerys broke the social contract when he unjustly executed Rickard and Brandon Stark and ordered Jon Arryn to kill Ned and Robert.

They then lost and all of the Lords of the Seven Kingdoms bent the knee to Robert. The Throne is currently Baratheon's.

The only claim Daenarys has is by force (which admittedly an army and dragons are good for).

 

[HemalJB]

My vote depends on whether Stannis sacrifices Shireeen or not. If he does, then he's lost my vote, as even kings should have lines he must not cross.

 

[Exterminas]

It's clearly Danny.

Stannis' claim rests on the assertion that all of Cersei's children are bastards. He can not prove that.

Danny's claim rests on the fact that Robert usurped the throne. This is a commonly known fact that does not need proving.

So yeah, Danny has the better claim, because she doesn't have to rely on easily contested claims of incest.

 

[WolfThomas]

Spoiler: It is stuff like this that makes me a King's Man

Now when can we expect a damn Vinyl Pop Figurine?

 

[Ariseishirou]

I was team Dany in the books right up until ADWD, but the show has made me team Stannis pretty hard. He's actually quite charismatic in the show, in a hard, pragmatic sort of way, whereas in the books I never really thought so. Book!Stannis I have a hard time imagining uniting all the factions, but Show!Stannis could absolutely do it.

On the flipside, whereas I lost just about all respect for Dany in ADWD, the show has cut most of the crap that made that the case, so I'm less inclined to write her off, too...

Ultimately, though, Dany conquering the Seven Kingdoms is 100% selfish, whereas Stannis is the one ruler who's actually doing what's really important: i.e., fighting at the Wall to save humankind.

In terms of legal claim? It's whoever wins the fight, right?

 

[Terminal Blue]

My vote depends on whether Stannis sacrifices Shireeen or not. If he does, then he's lost my vote, as even kings should have lines he must not cross.

I suspect (and actually kind of hope, on a thematic level) that he will.

Spoiler

Stannis is believed by Melissandre to be Azor Ahai reborn. The original Azor Ahai, according to a legend told to Davos Seaworth in the books, forged the original Lightbringer (also called the "red sword of heroes") by sacrificing his wife. The theme of the story, and a major theme of the series, is that power requires sacrifice. In order to be a hero and save the world from darkness, Azor Ahai had to destroy the person who was most precious to him.

There's also kind of a potential metacommentary here about dramatic heroism. The people who are the heroes in the typical fantasy setting would be terrifying in real life. Being a hero shouldn't be something anyone wishes for, it's at best a terrible, terrible necessity.

 

[jklinders]

If we are talking legally then Stannis. He is the rightful heir after all. the Targaryens were removed when Danyerius(sp) was a baby.

But this is a civil war. Whoever has might has right. Dany might be able to take it, but I doubt she can keep it.But whoever wins that war will decide who sits on that seat. Honestly that kinda looks like the white walkers at this point so maybe it'll be the the leader of the white walkers.

 

[FalloutJack]

Vote Tyrion Lannister - The only SANE person to rule.

Which is exactly why he'll never ever get himself on the throne. The real power is behind it, and that's where he does his work.

Which is why the ultimate irony would have to be his ascending to the throne because anybody else even REMOTELY viable would have killed each other. Admit it, you want it to happen because it would annoy him AND it would be funny AND we want to see what he would DO with it.

 

[Evonisia]

Both of them have pretty poor claims:
Daenerys claims to be the leader because her family was usurped. That means the only way she's getting it back is by usurping the usurpers.
Stannis claims to be the leader because Cersei's children are bastards. There's no proving that, and the only way we know it's remotely true is because Cersei told a dead man that she didn't pleasure Robert like that. Or in the TV show, they could be Robert's children given that she tried at least once to have a proper kid with him, so what would stop her from trying again for at least one of the other three kids (she still claims to have loved him even after the fever).

 

[viscomica]

Stannis has more claim than Daenarys, but to me, neither of them could really claim the throne. I do think that a lot of people want Daenarys to ultimately take it and be the next person to rule but I just don't see it happening. I think what the author has in mind for those characters is different than what they expect for themselves.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

In terms of the laws of Westeros, I'd say Stannis' claim is stronger (although arguably Tommen's is still the strongest yet as his illegitimacy isn't widely accepted). All the great houses have accepted the rebellion and treated Robert's right to rule as legal, so it follows that they accept his line of succession, not the Targaryen line. In the eyes of Westeros, the Targaryen's are gone.

Besides...

Spoiler

... If Aegon proves to be legitimate, he takes precedence over Danaerys as well. Personally, I'm all for Aegon.

Still, 'might is right' is the only real way this is going to be decided. Whoever ends up on the throne at the end has the best claim, and that's all you can say, really.

 

[Silvanus]

ITT: Thirty-one traitors to the crown, attainted and accursed. Your time will come.

 

[samgdawg]

If you were actually paying attention to the books

Speaking as someone who has read the first book

I would have payed more attention to them if I'd had a chance to read the rest of them yet. As for the rest of your post, those are all really good points. I'll admit I didn't factor in the obvious difference between Dany's three "Oh shit, it's a dragon, send some guys to shoot it down" size dragons and Aegon's three "OH SHIT HE ATE OUR SHIPS!" size dragons. Thank you for clearing the misrepresentation I had of the Westoros soldiers.
And you're right the Seven Kingdoms would probably have a few things to say about some (from their perspective) random army led by a teenage girl trying to take the Throne.
That's the thing about these discussions. When you take away the gray zones of whose claim is more "right" and try to deduce endgames from these situations it can get very murky in terms of the hugely complex socioploitical systems and subtle power plays from the countless houses. It's a lot of fun. I'll go ahead and back out as I'm seeing things being discussed I have no clue about as I'm still in the act of catching up with everyone else.

 

[bat32391]

Well throne was taken by force in the first place so I say the one that have the strongest army will take the ugly piece melted metal. it won't matter in the end, when winter comes the true king in the north will conquer all.

 

[Recusant]

And the the kingdoms should be aparts is also pretty stupid, it will just lead back to the days of constant fighting and blood feuds, it's a short term solution that just gonna make everything worse.

Fighting and blood feuds? What do you think is going on now? It's not a stupid idea at all; if you dissolve the empire and restore each kingdom to individual sovereignty, you undercut the main reason for these massive wars; you can't claim the throne if there's no throne to claim. The Targaryens only unified the region militarily; once their strength was gone, it would've all come crashing down sooner or later anyway. Seven separate kingdoms will no doubt have border skirmishes and minor wars, but without the hollow shell of unity they have now, massive-scale wars like they're currently experiencing will be impossible.

 

[Denamic]

The iron throne is earned, as I understand it. The one who wins it has the better claim.

 

[Biancaneri]

Neither. The strongest claim to the Iron Throne is possession of the ass that sits in it. By this logic, the strongest claim belongs to Tommen Baratheon.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

Going by CK2 rules: Stannis.

Robert took the title from Whats-his-face Targaryen using what I assume would be a fabricated claim or an invasion casus belli, then he died. Assuming the Iron Throne uses Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture succession law, the title would pass to his eldest son, but since all Cersei's kids are bastards he has none. The title will then go to his next eldest brother, Stannis.

I can't remember if Dany would have a weak claim or a strong claim, but Stannis is literally the rightful heir. And this is ignoring the fact that almost everyone hates the Targaryen's guts anyways. And the fact she's a women and medieval leaders don't take kindly to that.

 

[Johnny Impact]

On paper, it looks like Stannis. His brother was the last king. It's true that the Targaryens were invaders, but if you go back far enough, you'll probably find the Westerosi themselves swept some weaker peoples out of the way to establish the Kingdoms in the first place. In fact, aren't those the folk who ended up beyond the Wall? Been awhile since I read the books.

In reality, the true ruler is whoever can plant their ass in the big chair and keep it there. The one and only true right to rule is measured in the inability of others to stop you.