Poll: Star Ocean5 censored in the west, misses the point still

[Disco Biscuit]

People don't like being called out on their actions in video games. It makes them feel bad.

Ah yes, that is precisely why noone thought Spec Ops: The Line was any good.

Strange, that was exactly one of my examples. Given the backlash people had against being called bad guys for doing what the game told them, especially the civilians incident, it sets this up exactly. People were upset that Spec Ops told them they were bad for doing what they were told.

Interestingly enough, the people who praised it also seem to have picked up on the discomfort, or these scenes wouldn't have had any emotional resonance. It relies entirely on us, the player, having a dislike of being treated like the villain even when we act like one.

Undertale is another, more recent example of exactly what you're talking about. The people who hated it, seemed to hate it because it held them to something like accountability. Once they got over the shock, they started to call it "preachy", but at first they were just raging.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I have to say, if a developer thinks that people are even going to notice this, I kinda have to scratch my head at it. Really the only people who are even noticing this are the people who act like any changes at all made to games are censorship. Also backlashes haven't really been happening that much of late. Fire Emblem aside, the only people going on the internet and getting angry nowadays seem to be the ones screaming censorship.

I apologize if I said all of this to you already.

 

[ManutheBloodedge]

People don't like being called out on their actions in video games. It makes them feel bad.

Ah yes, that is precisely why noone thought Spec Ops: The Line was any good.

Strange, that was exactly one of my examples. Given the backlash people had against being called bad guys for doing what the game told them, especially the civilians incident, it sets this up exactly. People were upset that Spec Ops told them they were bad for doing what they were told.

Interestingly enough, the people who praised it also seem to have picked up on the discomfort, or these scenes wouldn't have had any emotional resonance. It relies entirely on us, the player, having a dislike of being treated like the villain even when we act like one.

It could be that some of the backlash resulted in the feeling that the player had not really a choice in the matter, but being chastised for it it anyway. In games like Skyrim, there were a lot of possibilities for the players to act evil, and I don't think I heard anyone complain about that. I know a lot of people who relish in the chance to be villains in these kind of games, or just generally an unpleasant fellow like Renegade-Sheppard.

I generally thought Skyrim had a very interesting morality system, where you could either do a certain quest and fullfill every evil task that comes with it, or simply not do it, and miss out on the rewards. Granted, I didn't exactly feel like this was planned either. I had a lot of cases where I didn't want to act evil, but had no other choice in the quest, so I had to either go totally against the morals the character I was roleplaying, or leave the quest eternally unfullfilled. Both not really desirable outcomes.

 

[Zhukov]

People don't like being called out on their actions in video games. It makes them feel bad.

Ah yes, that is precisely why noone thought Spec Ops: The Line was any good.

Strange, that was exactly one of my examples. Given the backlash people had against being called bad guys for doing what the game told them, especially the civilians incident, it sets this up exactly. People were upset that Spec Ops told them they were bad for doing what they were told.

Interestingly enough, the people who praised it also seem to have picked up on the discomfort, or these scenes wouldn't have had any emotional resonance. It relies entirely on us, the player, having a dislike of being treated like the villain even when we act like one.

As someone who wasn't impressed with Spec Ops The Line, I'm going to have to disagree there.

(Just to be clear, I love what it was trying to do, but I think it fumbled the execution.)

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't mind being told that I'm the bad guy. RPGs do it all the time. But it doesn't have any impact when I didn't have a choice in the matter.

The game essentially says "Press X to do bad thing (and also proceed the game)" then once you inevitably press X it goes, "Omigosh, you pressed X, you monster!"

Now, if it had given me a choice and made me want to do bad things, then it would have been fucking brilliant. Then it would have been calling me out instead of its own predetermined script. Then it would have earned its finger-waggling privileges.

 

[ManutheBloodedge]

Snip

I have to say, if a developer thinks that people are even going to notice this, I kinda have to scratch my head at it. Really the only people who are even noticing this are the people who act like any changes at all made to games are censorship. Also backlashes haven't really been happening that much of late. Fire Emblem aside, the only people going on the internet and getting angry nowadays seem to be the ones screaming censorship.

I apologize if I said all of this to you already.

Well in this case, of course the only people who notice stuff like that are people who are looking for news on the game, especially regarding changes. There are enough examples from people of the other camp crying foul, just look at the recent Overwatch news.

I think calling cases like these cencorship is misguided at best, the misuse of the word is something that annoys me as well.

The fact that the Developer himself drew attention to it shows that this change was more of a publicity stunt, a showing of good will of some sorts. But I hate the fact that now even japanese developers think that they have to change their games in the west, this is just not very artfriendly. The more games are changed for an international audience, the more we loose the unique point of view we couldn't get otherwise. I know we need a good localisation to get the point in the first place, but the game should not be altered so heavily that the original point gets lost.

For example, I have no problem with the removal of the petting minigame in Fire Emblem: Fates, because everything else is still there, and the intention of the developers (better social standing with your troops trough personal interaction) I personally don't agree with the removal, but the change was minor enough that it ultimately doesn't matter.

In Fire Emblem: Awakening however, the character Henry was drastically altered in the localisation, made more kid-friendly and humoric. That is a change I disagree with, because it goes against the original vision of the char.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

No argument with your first two points.

It being a publicity stunt...maybe. There's certainly evidence to support that argument and I can't say that I have enough proof to disprove it. It's up in the air. I kinda get where you're coming from, though I'm of the opinion that, while you should stand up for yourself, to a certain extent you really do need to develop a thick skin when you export games. For all of the noise around Fire Emblem Fates, with stuff both sides don't like, it still sold gangbusters, with a lot of said things still in. A developer needs to be able to stand by their work, so to a good extent its on them. Plus sometimes changes made in localization are for the better. Kefka was hated in Japan, being an underwhelming villain. In the western release, he was changed into an absolute psychopath and become one of the most iconic Final Fantasy villains as a result. I'm not saying things should always be changed, just that sometimes changes are for the better.

Uh, I won't deny that Henry was made more humorous, but how in the heck is someone who gleefully offers to murder the entire camp when he's flirting with Tharja kid-friendly? Christ, his giggling while saying "I'm gonna kill you" freaks me the fuck out. I do get where you're coming from though.

 

[CritialGaming]

I can see the chracter's butt. Therefore the character should be removed so that there is no chance that anyone might be offended in seeing this chracter's butt. In fact, just remove this clearly sexist and exploited female's body. I vote to change her character into an energy-based entity that is entirely formless and there cannot offend anyone except those filthy Quasar people from Romulan-X10, fuck those people.

 

[Sylveria]

Yep, I'm a prude for not wanting to bang a child : /

Spoiler

I don't think Square is the only one missing the point.

It says an awful lot about about a person that their immediate reaction to the idea of a an early-teenage girl in a dress wearing underwear less modest than an adult diaper is "Well clearly this is about someone wanting to bang it!"

 

[ManutheBloodedge]

Snip

No argument with your first two points.

It being a publicity stunt...maybe. There's certainly evidence to support that argument and I can't say that I have enough proof to disprove it. It's up in the air. I kinda get where you're coming from, though I'm of the opinion that, while you should stand up for yourself, to a certain extent you really do need to develop a thick skin when you export games. For all of the noise around Fire Emblem Fates, with stuff both sides don't like, it still sold gangbusters, with a lot of said things still in. A developer needs to be able to stand by their work, so to a good extent its on them. Plus sometimes changes made in localization are for the better. Kefka was hated in Japan, being an underwhelming villain. In the western release, he was changed into an absolute psychopath and become one of the most iconic Final Fantasy villains as a result. I'm not saying things should always be changed, just that sometimes changes are for the better.

Uh, I won't deny that Henry was made more humorous, but how in the heck is someone who gleefully offers to murder the entire camp when he's flirting with Tharja kid-friendly? Christ, his giggling while saying "I'm gonna kill you" freaks me the fuck out. I do get where you're coming from though.

Yeah sorry, not the best choice of words. What I meant was that in his japanese backstory, he murdered an entire village as revenge for some hunters killing his wolf surrogate mother, and he was sent to an instiution that performed inhuman experiments on him, not a school where he was bullied. As a result, he was a sinister character without the relief of humor, and a very stark contrast to the otherwise less grim tone of the game. So basically they PG-13nd him.

I agree with you that change is not always bad. The western versions of Bravely Default were changed after feedback from japanese players, and were generally better off. But again, that was done by the developers, with their vision in mind. I have a problem when either localisation teams change something against this vision, or the developers themselves because they think it will cause problems otherwise. Just look at the developer in this case, he changed it not because he thought it was better, but because he thought the game would get negative press if he didn't. That is just a matter of principle with me.

 

[Sharia]

Never offended. If the game is lewd, the game is lewd. Don't buy it if its not your kind of game, and that goes for all aspects of it

 

[SecondPrize]

Japanese fans are apparently upset with us in the western market about it. I'm sorry Japanese gamers, I think it's stupid too.

This the same Japan that took out the nuke and renamed the Fatman in Fallout 3? Imports to Japan get changed just as much as exports to the west, they're just more around violence than sex. Let's not pretend one country is superior to the other.

And also the same Japan where fans had screaming tantrums over their favorite waifu turning out to have had a previous boyfriend, calling her 'used goods' and destroying their manga collections in protest

The nuke wasn't taken out of our FO3. Their Star Ocean is being changed because of us.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Yep, I'm a prude for not wanting to bang a child : /

Spoiler

I don't think Square is the only one missing the point.

It says an awful lot about about a person that their immediate reaction to the idea of a an early-teenage girl in a dress wearing underwear less modest than an adult diaper is "Well clearly this is about someone wanting to bang it!"

She's not a real person wearing underwear. She's a game model designed with particular underwear. And for some reason people really care that it be more revealing. Can you provide some explanation that doesn't involve anything sexual for why someone would want to be looking at her underwear on purpose and care that it be more revealing?

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

About that story of Jp fans getting mad an anime char got a boyfriend, I think that was based on the K-On manga sequel where they go to college. People were destroying their figures and whatnot, funny stuff. Not sure if it was Mio or not but one of them very briefly is shown to be dating. It's part of the idol culture where they market chars as an ideal and then their dating someone makes them into a real person so the fans seem betrayed. The culture is one where the chars are portrayed to be solely devoted to their fans so they kinda bring it upon themselves with making that type of character and then changing it up half way through.Though that's like a sub section of the really 2Dcon people who celebrate their fav chars birthdays with real cake and stuff, not the majority of fans lol.

From what I've heard, she's very underage. That's where this stuff is ok.

Nope, she is 18. I even say this in this topic! XD

And this is why gamers, if anything, are being taken LESS seriously as time goes on. Pick your battles, otherwise you're going to look like a fool. Furthermore, just screaming "PRUDE!" does not make a valid argument. This is ridiculous.

Nobody is battling here, nor screaming. I'm having fun with both Japan changing the size of the panties and thinking that's all better now and with anyone who'd seriously take issue with fictional character panties to a degree noticeable by overseas devs, whatever term you wish to describe them by.


Instead of getting so stuck up in the term prude, analyze what meaning the term has in this context and respond to that instead.


But I have to say, I would have thought based on the nature of the poll and top post mentioning I am merely on the look for other changes as opposed to not gettin the game any more that people would understand that amusement as opposed to outrage are the origins of this discussion. I guess using terms like prude and censorship means you're instantly yelling or something ah well.

 

[Sylveria]

Snip

I have to say, if a developer thinks that people are even going to notice this, I kinda have to scratch my head at it. Really the only people who are even noticing this are the people who act like any changes at all made to games are censorship. Also backlashes haven't really been happening that much of late. Fire Emblem aside, the only people going on the internet and getting angry nowadays seem to be the ones screaming censorship.

I apologize if I said all of this to you already.

When a change is made to a piece of art because of FEAR, as it was in the case of Star Ocean, that's censorship. And you're right, people aren't going to notice this, and that should be what scares you. When free expression is stifled and people don't notice, the people who are doing the oppressing can operate unchecked. People really need to start reading their history books and see how the modern authoritarian countries started to slide in to the state they are now. I'll give a hint, it started with the restriction of free speech and free expression. Take a good look at Sweden which now has an artist imprisoned under the same conditions that would be normally be reserved for capital offenses, like murder, because he dared to make a piece criticizing the government or Canada where a group of feminists who were cozy with government officials kept a man banned from the internet for almost a year for daring to disagree with them on Twitter before he was FINALLY found to be not-guilty. "Its just Tracer's pose, It's just a girl's underwear, it's just some shitty localizing, it's just a shitty boob game not getting brought to the rest of the world, it's just one chain refusing to sell a title." It's just one little thing after another, and it'll continue to be more and more, bigger and bigger. The thing that still, after all these years of watching it happen, gets me is how 10 years ago if it was the religious right demanding a pose or panties be censored, everyone would be up in arms for those dirty christian fundies to keep their hands of our games. But today, when the same rhetoric is spouted by the other side of the political spectrum? Silence or, worse yet, adulation.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

The culture is one where the chars are portrayed to be solely devoted to their fans so they kinda bring it upon themselves with making that type of character and then changing it up half way through.

Maybe that's just plain creepy anyways. The culture where that's expected is the problem, not failing to meet its expectations.

When a change is made to a piece of art because of FEAR, as it was in the case of Star Ocean, that's censorship.

Fear of bad publicity making you change something isn't censorship. The world doesn't need to approve of every little thing you do. Sorry, but no sympathy for the idea that people should he successful and popular no matter what they do. It's not censorship to fear people looking at your product in a bad light.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I have to say, if a developer thinks that people are even going to notice this, I kinda have to scratch my head at it. Really the only people who are even noticing this are the people who act like any changes at all made to games are censorship. Also backlashes haven't really been happening that much of late. Fire Emblem aside, the only people going on the internet and getting angry nowadays seem to be the ones screaming censorship.

I apologize if I said all of this to you already.

When a change is made to a piece of art because of FEAR, as it was in the case of Star Ocean, that's censorship. And you're right, people aren't going to notice this, and that should be what scares you. When free expression is stifled and people don't notice, the people who are doing the oppressing can operate unchecked. People really need to start reading their history books and see how the modern authoritarian countries started to slide in to the state they are now. I'll give a hint, it started with the restriction of free speech and free expression. Take a good look at Sweden which now has an artist imprisoned under the same conditions that would be normally be reserved for capital offenses, like murder, because he dared to make a piece criticizing the government or Canada where a group of feminists who were cozy with government officials kept a man banned from the internet for almost a year for daring to disagree with them on Twitter before he was FINALLY found to be not-guilty. "Its just Tracer's pose, It's just a girl's underwear, it's just some shitty localizing, it's just a shitty boob game not getting brought to the rest of the world, it's just one chain refusing to sell a title." It's just one little thing after another, and it'll continue to be more and more, bigger and bigger. The thing that still, after all these years of watching it happen, gets me is how 10 years ago if it was the religious right demanding a pose or panties be censored, everyone would be up in arms for those dirty christian fundies to keep their hands of our games. But today, when the same rhetoric is spouted by the other side of the political spectrum? Silence or, worse yet, adulation.

If it is, I consider it to be an incredibly minor bit of censorship, considering that nothing was stopping the dev from releasing the game overseas as is. I have to ask, really, how many people would've actually raised a stink over being able to see this woman's underwear? And of those people, how many would be sated by a slightly more conservative pair of them? And to be frank, people adjust their work all the time, because you can't just put everything that comes to mind into your story. I've done that with my writing, plenty of people have done it with their work. There's a reason that image of Vault Boy kicking a pregnant woman in the stomach never got used. You're gonna have to link that Swedish story, I have no idea what it is. And I consider the issue with Canada to be solved for the better considering that the court ruled in the man's favor, something that sets a precedent. So any problems there I consider rightfully squashed.

You know, for people claiming that it'll get bigger and bigger, I have to say it hasn't really gotten bigger and bigger. Hell if anything it's gotten smaller and smaller. I played a lot of 90s games from Japan and everything that's happened in the last year or so feels downright tame by comparison. That's the key difference. People were demanding changes. No one forced the dev to do this, no one was starting a petition saying "change the panties" they did it on their own. For the life of me I don't get it. Did they really think there would be massive outrage against this game? I don't see it. Outrage in the gaming community only really happens with sensationalist news point people in the direction of it. Something that only happened with this game AFTER this

Frankly I find this whole situation kind of laughable, because this is the type of compromise that makes no one happy. People who don't like oversexualization aren't going to be satisfied because you're still looking up her skirt (Yeah they say it's part of her character that she needs to have her skin bare, but I fail to see how having the camera that low is part of her character. Just say you wanted a sexy character for eff's sake) and the people who wanted sexy are going to be mad for obvious reasons. So nice going dumbass.

And I'm sorry, if the answer to this is for me to shut up and not criticize how sex is used in games, sorry, I ain't stopping. Frankly I just consider this dev to be stupid and cowardly. Fire Emblem Fates just released a game where the main female character's armor shows off a good chunk of her ass, and while I've seen a few people grumble about it here and there, there's nothing resembling a major backlash. I don't know why they thought people would care.

 

[MerlinCross]

And I'm sorry, if the answer to this is for me to shut up and not criticize how sex is used in games, sorry, I ain't stopping. Frankly I just consider this dev to be stupid and cowardly. Fire Emblem Fates just released a game where the main female character's armor shows off a good chunk of her ass, and while I've seen a few people grumble about it here and there, there's nothing resembling a major backlash. I don't know why they thought people would care.

Well it seems to be a die roll to see if something gets enough traction to turn into a 'problem'. Apparently the Tracer thing got enough traction that they decided to change it(Or was the art team considering it before the fuss was raised). And thus a fuss on both sides was raised up.

And that's probably something that devs are starting to HAVE to think about. Will or will this not raise a fuss and will it get enough traction. Granted this change seems stupid as you're not pleasing either side of this argument(OP had it right they DID kinda miss the point).

Also the colors are messing with me at time of writing, dunno if I can keep posting.

 

[Erttheking]

And I'm sorry, if the answer to this is for me to shut up and not criticize how sex is used in games, sorry, I ain't stopping. Frankly I just consider this dev to be stupid and cowardly. Fire Emblem Fates just released a game where the main female character's armor shows off a good chunk of her ass, and while I've seen a few people grumble about it here and there, there's nothing resembling a major backlash. I don't know why they thought people would care.

Well it seems to be a die roll to see if something gets enough traction to turn into a 'problem'. Apparently the Tracer thing got enough traction that they decided to change it(Or was the art team considering it before the fuss was raised). And thus a fuss on both sides was raised up.

And that's probably something that devs are starting to HAVE to think about. Will or will this not raise a fuss and will it get enough traction. Granted this change seems stupid as you're not pleasing either side of this argument(OP had it right they DID kinda miss the point).

Also the colors are messing with me at time of writing, dunno if I can keep posting.

They said that they were already considering changing that, so really the one poster seems like the straw that broke the camel's back. So to speak.

Frankly the odds of something raising a fuss on any significant scale are minor, I'd even argue less than 1% if you just factor in the amount of games released and the amount who actually get attention this way and average it out. Even then a lot of the time the outrage just kinda goes nowhere.

Not just me then huh?

 

[JimB]

When a change is made to a piece of art because of fear, as it was in the case of Star Ocean, that's censorship.

Fear of what, though? Fear of criticism? Fear of not selling enough units? Neither of those are attacks, and no one is owed to have their game received without disagreement and with universal sales appeal.

 

[Maximum Bert]

Just bizarre honestly I dont think many would even notice unless it was pointed out. Im not a fan of censorship in any way however so I dont agree with it on principal. If they changed it because they wanted to from an artistic standpoint thats fine but if its from feeling pressured to or made to do so then that is not ok.

I just hope things dont start escalating and thats not because I want to see more short skirts or something but because I dont want developers to feel like there is some invisible line they either shouldnt cross or go way beyond and market it on the fact they went beyond it. Basically taking their eyes off the game and focusing even more on the marketability of it. Games are bad enough for this with the big AAAs already.