Poll: Star Wars VII's lightsaber combat changes, yay or nay? (Spoilers)

[DoPo]

I'm only left scratching my head as to why they lunge and swing like they're wielding steel weaponry, as opposed to weightless light beams that they are.

Possibly because they don't know how to use weightless light beams but have some familiarity with steel weaponry. Let's have a breakdown:

- Rey is shown to have a staff thingie she fought with. Given that she's a scavenger and her familiarity with fighting, it's nor far fetched to believe she might know how to swing something akin to a sword. Or, you know, a bat. At any rate, she literally wielded a lightsabre for the first time in the very end of the movie.

- Finn has had storm trooper training. While I don't think we know exactly that encompasses, close combat is conceivably a part of it. We see a storm trooper going melee against a lightsabre user, thus lending even more credence to the idea. Again, though, they would likely not have any proficiency with lightsabres - again, something like a bat or a more traditional sword is more likely. I really doubt storm troopers would be masters of those weapons, but I can see them at least covering the basics. Still, Finn uses a lighstabre twice in total, and not for that long, either.

- Kylo Ren has had a lightsabre for the most of the three combatants. Emphasis on had - I am not sure he really knows how to use it. Especially against other lighsabre users. Reinforced by giant evil Gollum remarking to the effect that Kylo has not finished his training. Ren is also shown to have a short temper and swinging wildly when agitated.

 

[Callate]

I have to confess that I have a soft spot in my heart for Yoda's fight against Dooku. Yes, it's ridiculous- the lead-up is ridiculous, the circumstances that necessitate it are ridiculous, the conclusion is ridiculous; hell, the name "Dooku" is ridiculous. But something about the idea that the little wizened green Jedi Master, imbued with the Force, becomes this kinetic ball of fury that makes his opponent's obviously superior reach all but irrelevant... Kind of makes me smile.

...And that is one of maybe three positive things you will ever hear me say about the original trilogy.

As for "TFA", I thought it was a big improvement. Suddenly the lightsabers were swords again, not just special effects that did whatever was flashy. (How about a double-bladed lightsaber! How about two lightsabers! How about cutting through doors...!) I still feel the crossguard lightsaber looks a little ridiculous, but I'm willing to be more forgiving in as much as it matches its creators haphazard and uncontrolled approach to his art and it was actually being used in a quasi-practical manner.

 

[UsefulPlayer 1]

New movie definitely had some spectacular moments I will remember forever.

-Kylo Ren, walking away from Finn, dodges a strike from behind like a goddamn ghost and smacks him with his lightsaber.

-Kylo Ren stumbling in slo-mo (not sure if slo-mo or just in my head) after Rey stabs him in the shoulder, with Rey approaching her prey.

The grazing with the lightsaber and heavy smacks went a long way in making the fight so much more exciting.

Obi-wan versus Anakin was at its worse when Anakin runs into Obi-wan's kick. Super dumb scene so that they can do that "Force grab my lightsaber at the last moment" scene on the table.

 

[happyninja42]

New movie definitely had some spectacular moments I will remember forever.

-Kylo Ren, walking away from Finn, dodges a strike from behind like a goddamn ghost and smacks him with his lightsaber.

-Kylo Ren stumbling in slo-mo (not sure if slo-mo or just in my head) after Rey stabs him in the shoulder, with Rey approaching her prey.

The grazing with the lightsaber and heavy smacks went a long way in making the fight so much more exciting.

Obi-wan versus Anakin was at its worse when Anakin runs into Obi-wan's kick. Super dumb scene so that they can do that "Force grab my lightsaber at the last moment" scene on the table.

See I'm the opposite about Ep 7. I found nothing about the lightsaber fights memorable. I mean they were good, I thought they were more enjoyable and believable than the prequels, but nothing that wowed me.

I have to confess that I have a soft spot in my heart for Yoda's fight against Dooku. Yes, it's ridiculous- the lead-up is ridiculous, the circumstances that necessitate it are ridiculous, the conclusion is ridiculous; hell, the name "Dooku" is ridiculous. But something about the idea that the little wizened green Jedi Master, imbued with the Force, becomes this kinetic ball of fury that makes his opponent's obviously superior reach all but irrelevant... Kind of makes me smile.

Same here actually. I still love when Dooku's all "I'm even more powerful than the Jedi!!" *lightning fingers* *Yoda casually absorbs it without blinking* "Much to learn have you." Such a badass comeback. xD

 

[ravenlordhun]

The fact any random civilian with force sensitivity can just "wake up" and ass-whoop Siths (even if in training) makes me wonder just why the Jedi Order was needed in the first place. Seriously, we've never seen Rey fight with swords before that duel - she was fighting with a staff earlier, and fighting with staffs is not going to lend you much experience with wielding swords. Ren, in turn, has obviously had his lightsaber for a while AND received some training from GollumV2 (even if it wasn't finished)... but goes down without having a chance.

I guess there's in-store reasons I'm not privy to, but I don't believe those should matter. Judging TFA on its own, this fight was very hard to take seriously. It was about as credible as a ten year old kid getting into a spaceship for the very first time in his life and then straight proceeding to beat a whole armada.

At least the coreography was less stupid than the prequel movies'. Too bad the inane story killed the whole thing for me.

 

[Combustion Kevin]

I'm only left scratching my head as to why they lunge and swing like they're wielding steel weaponry, as opposed to weightless light beams that they are.

Possibly because they don't know how to use weightless light beams but have some familiarity with steel weaponry. Let's have a breakdown:

- Rey is shown to have a staff thingie she fought with. Given that she's a scavenger and her familiarity with fighting, it's nor far fetched to believe she might know how to swing something akin to a sword. Or, you know, a bat. At any rate, she literally wielded a lightsabre for the first time in the very end of the movie.

- Finn has had storm trooper training. While I don't think we know exactly that encompasses, close combat is conceivably a part of it. We see a storm trooper going melee against a lightsabre user, thus lending even more credence to the idea. Again, though, they would likely not have any proficiency with lightsabres - again, something like a bat or a more traditional sword is more likely. I really doubt storm troopers would be masters of those weapons, but I can see them at least covering the basics. Still, Finn uses a lighstabre twice in total, and not for that long, either.

- Kylo Ren has had a lightsabre for the most of the three combatants. Emphasis on had - I am not sure he really knows how to use it. Especially against other lighsabre users. Reinforced by giant evil Gollum remarking to the effect that Kylo has not finished his training. Ren is also shown to have a short temper and swinging wildly when agitated.

Be that as it may, the exaggerated swings would be a tell-tale sign of an amateur swordsman who isn't used to the weight of a steel blade, something that is obviously not there, the only weight is in the palm of your hand and that won't cause you to overreach like that, the weapon is still practically weightless.

also, during the first fight finn uses the sword, when the stormtroopers come to burn down the tavern, we see him run up to a trooper and stab him, running him through entirely and keep the sword in place as if it were stuck, why is that?
these weapons can melt through blast doors without any sort of spectacular motion, why would it get stuck in a stormtrooper?

 

[ravenlordhun]

Because dismembering humans on screen is not PG-13.

Had that stormtrooper been a robot, it would have been cleaved neatly into two.

 

[Schtimpy]

So my arguement ran it's course (thanks Gupp!), but I got one last thing to say:

How do you all not see this as viable?

Admittedly, the behind-the-back thing is dumb, but look at their feet. They're planted, arms length from each other, with weapons that double your reach. They're too close. If you did anything, you'd get stabbed. Strike your opponent? Stabbed. Step back? Stabbed. Wave you're sword around like an idiot? The other guy doesn't know where you're going to strike, and you can block if he strikes. This scene/half-a-second was filmed wrong. I'd say close-up of a concentrated face, and slow-mo when one of the two broke it, with a clear advantage. I actually think this situation is really cool, a more active crossing of blades (pXq), but it's not something that would make sense for a non-Jedi swordsman.

--Just watched it, it ended right (Obi broke it) but it began with them striking at each other. Thing is, as soon as someone chooses to wave their sword around like an idiot, you have to as well. If you hit that waving at the wrong time, you would be at a huge disadvantage, and you can't just wait.

Not saying it justifies anything about the general swordsmanship of the prequels, I just think it's funny that the most used example of the prequels swordsmanship is actually the only non-suicidal thing you can do in that situation.

But the behind-the-back thing is dumb.

 

[tzimize]

The biggest problem for me with the 7-fight is that I felt it had more or less zero emotional gravitas. Of the only two people that had any emotional connection in the entire film, one killed the other one off just minutes before. Maybe if Chewbacca was fighting him...but that would just look silly I'm sure.

Kylo Ren was lame beyond belief and Rey/Finn didnt have any personal reason to go after him. All the fights between Vader and Luke had an awesome emotional weight to them, and usually ended with more of a mental victory than a physical one.

The prequel fights were a lot more flash, but most of them had a big finality to them as well.

The first one vs Darth Maul was EXCELLENT, and it also showcased the differences between the 3 characters EXPERTLY. Obi as the fresh/cocky padawan prancing around, Qui-gon as the mature master, sitting down to meditate mid combat and Darth Maul stalking around like a hunting animal. And it ends with a dead master and immediate vengeance.

Obi/Anakin vs Count Dooku, the jedis are fighting what they think to be the leading evil force...obi is knocked down and Anakin has to contend with a master, and in his pride, fails. Then Yoda enters and has to fight his own apprentice. Emotional gravitas again. Plus two brilliant fights.

Ani vs Dooku again, Ani ends up killing Dooku as Palpatine watches, bringing them closer and Anakin further over the edge.

Yoda vs Palpatine...the main villain vs a living legend of the light. The fight in the office is awesome enough, but then they take it outside into the council hall/republic meeting place and fights with the force....Palpatine is absolutely fabulous here, and Yoda loses! The Jedis lose both the battle and the war.

Then finally Anakin vs Obi-wan, and Anakin is so emotionally wrecked by all he has done that his overconfidence finally gets the better of him and Obi has to end his own apprentice, leaving him to burn without feet at the edge. Amazing.


The 7-fight might look great in the forest with the sizzling snow and the trees getting burned, but it had ZERO weight to it, both between the participants and considering the ridiculous stale-mate. There was a lot of things 7 did right, there was no jar jar for one, it looked more like a star wars movie than any of the prequels, but the plot was stupid, the villain pathetic, and the lightsaber fight was in a word anti-climactic.

It would be interesting to me if the new SW movies, even despite the technological advantage they have over the mediocre green screening of the prequels, end up being lesser movies.

I have a lot of negative things to say about the prequels, but they handled the fights well and the story was GREAT. Palpatines rise to power and Anakins fall from what little grace he had was fantastically written, if not acted by Hayden. Ian McDiarmid as Palpatine though...good lord what an actor. He is just seethingly good.

So far, the story in the prequels have been VERY lacking to me and the only upside have been old-star chameos and some cool scenes with the falcon. Finn was good fun, and rey found her place in the falcon...but the story they are in the middle of just seems poorly thought out and bad.

 

[Floppertje]

snip

Zero emotional weight? Were you watching the same movie I was? Ren has been hunting Finn and Rey for the entire movie. He killed Han, who Rey was pretty much starting to adopt as a surrogate father. Family is very important to her, hence her constant saying she needs to get back to jakku, and even then she was very happy and tempted that Han was offering her a job. And moments before she fights him Ren cuts down Finn, who she had built a rather strong bond with at this point.
I liked the fights in 7 the most out of any of the movies. There were some weird things/changes though.

1) The lightsabers seem to be less lethal. The way they connect with bodies they seem almost more like a physical stick that burns than a laser beam. When both Finn and Ren get hit and fall, they look like they've been knocked down rather than cut up, so either the lightsabre isn't as lethal as in the other films or they both got grazed with the extreme tippy-top end, or there would've been very little left of their torso/head.

2) How can Ren NOT win this? From the movie I gathered he's been a sith for quite a while, and he'd been trained by luke before that, so you would assume he's at least a competent swordsman. Now Rey was already good with her staff, so I suppose that might translate to some basic melee skill with a lightsaber, but Finn was a goddamn janitor. He's had blaster training but the attack on that village was his first battle. How is he not cut down within a minute? And with his training, Ren REALLY should've been able to beat Rey.
Besides that, he seems laughably incompetent. Most of his screentime in the movie seems to consist of him telling the supreme leader (that's another thing. "supreme leader"? "the resistance"? The people naming things in this universe suck) that he can do something and then he immediately goes out and fails at whatever he said he'd do. I like how he's not as 'in charge' as vader was though. The First Order officers have no problem standing up to him. Good change.

3) Why does Ren keep thumping his leg? Does he have a malfunctioning prosthetic?

4) How does the First Order/New Republic/Resistance thing work geographically/politically? I'm assuming the First order is pretty much the remnants of the Empire, the New Republic is then the parts that have been liberated by the rebellion and the Resistance is the Republic forces in First Order territory? Does the Republic still exist after the First Order blew up 5 of their planets?
I'm a little disappointed that they couldn't find another way to up the stakes than by saying 'you know that Death Star that was stupidly overpowered and impractical? Let's make one that's 50 times more stupid and impractical!'

5) That scottish gang leader guy? Loved him! No further comment there. Just wanted to say that.

 

[Hoplon]

1) The lightsabers seem to be less lethal. The way they connect with bodies they seem almost more like a physical stick that burns than a laser beam. When both Finn and Ren get hit and fall, they look like they've been knocked down rather than cut up, so either the lightsabre isn't as lethal as in the other films or they both got grazed with the extreme tippy-top end, or there would've been very little left of their torso/head.

it was jsut the tip, they operate most of that fight as the most reach they can.

2) How can Ren NOT win this? From the movie I gathered he's been a sith for quite a while, and he'd been trained by luke before that, so you would assume he's at least a competent swordsman. Now Rey was already good with her staff, so I suppose that might translate to some basic melee skill with a lightsaber, but Finn was a goddamn janitor. He's had blaster training but the attack on that village was his first battle. How is he not cut down within a minute? And with his training, Ren REALLY should've been able to beat Rey.
Besides that, he seems laughably incompetent. Most of his screentime in the movie seems to consist of him telling the supreme leader (that's another thing. "supreme leader"? "the resistance"? The people naming things in this universe suck) that he can do something and then he immediately goes out and fails at whatever he said he'd do. I like how he's not as 'in charge' as vader was though. The First Order officers have no problem standing up to him. Good change.

That's years of games etc talking, he's not a sith. no idea how long he trained with Luke, for all we know it was a week. probably get more detail later. dark sider, yes, sith? no. No Sith left to train him. Snoake is probably one of the Dark side adepts that Palaptine kept around the place. i think you see them in EP 6

3) Why does Ren keep thumping his leg? Does he have a malfunctioning prosthetic?

It's where he got shot by the bowcaster. it's trying to fuel his power with pain and anger.

4) How does the First Order/New Republic/Resistance thing work geographically/politically? I'm assuming the First order is pretty much the remnants of the Empire, the New Republic is then the parts that have been liberated by the rebellion and the Resistance is the Republic forces in First Order territory? Does the Republic still exist after the First Order blew up 5 of their planets?
I'm a little disappointed that they couldn't find another way to up the stakes than by saying 'you know that Death Star that was stupidly overpowered and impractical? Let's make one that's 50 times more stupid and impractical!'

the resistance is basically a black ops New Republic group, not officially sanctioned, but if they find something in breach of the accords they signed with the Imperial remnant they can call in the fleet. the new order is the bit of the remnat that thinks they should be in control again.

 

[Floppertje]

1) The lightsabers seem to be less lethal. The way they connect with bodies they seem almost more like a physical stick that burns than a laser beam. When both Finn and Ren get hit and fall, they look like they've been knocked down rather than cut up, so either the lightsabre isn't as lethal as in the other films or they both got grazed with the extreme tippy-top end, or there would've been very little left of their torso/head.

it was jsut the tip, they operate most of that fight as the most reach they can.

2) How can Ren NOT win this? From the movie I gathered he's been a sith for quite a while, and he'd been trained by luke before that, so you would assume he's at least a competent swordsman. Now Rey was already good with her staff, so I suppose that might translate to some basic melee skill with a lightsaber, but Finn was a goddamn janitor. He's had blaster training but the attack on that village was his first battle. How is he not cut down within a minute? And with his training, Ren REALLY should've been able to beat Rey.
Besides that, he seems laughably incompetent. Most of his screentime in the movie seems to consist of him telling the supreme leader (that's another thing. "supreme leader"? "the resistance"? The people naming things in this universe suck) that he can do something and then he immediately goes out and fails at whatever he said he'd do. I like how he's not as 'in charge' as vader was though. The First Order officers have no problem standing up to him. Good change.

That's years of games etc talking, he's not a sith. no idea how long he trained with Luke, for all we know it was a week. probably get more detail later. dark sider, yes, sith? no. No Sith left to train him. Snoake is probably one of the Dark side adepts that Palaptine kept around the place. i think you see them in EP 6

3) Why does Ren keep thumping his leg? Does he have a malfunctioning prosthetic?

It's where he got shot by the bowcaster. it's trying to fuel his power with pain and anger.

4) How does the First Order/New Republic/Resistance thing work geographically/politically? I'm assuming the First order is pretty much the remnants of the Empire, the New Republic is then the parts that have been liberated by the rebellion and the Resistance is the Republic forces in First Order territory? Does the Republic still exist after the First Order blew up 5 of their planets?
I'm a little disappointed that they couldn't find another way to up the stakes than by saying 'you know that Death Star that was stupidly overpowered and impractical? Let's make one that's 50 times more stupid and impractical!'

the resistance is basically a black ops New Republic group, not officially sanctioned, but if they find something in breach of the accords they signed with the Imperial remnant they can call in the fleet. the new order is the bit of the remnat that thinks they should be in control again.

I still think it's odd... He's obviously a big deal in the First Order. Why would he be if he's not trained well? He seems rather incompetent for his position. Also, here's hoping the next movie will include a scene of his yearly performance review where he gets to explain all the hardware he needlessly smashed XD

 

[tzimize]

snip

Zero emotional weight? Were you watching the same movie I was? Ren has been hunting Finn and Rey for the entire movie. He killed Han, who Rey was pretty much starting to adopt as a surrogate father. Family is very important to her, hence her constant saying she needs to get back to jakku, and even then she was very happy and tempted that Han was offering her a job. And moments before she fights him Ren cuts down Finn, who she had built a rather strong bond with at this point.
I liked the fights in 7 the most out of any of the movies. There were some weird things/changes though.

1) The lightsabers seem to be less lethal. The way they connect with bodies they seem almost more like a physical stick that burns than a laser beam. When both Finn and Ren get hit and fall, they look like they've been knocked down rather than cut up, so either the lightsabre isn't as lethal as in the other films or they both got grazed with the extreme tippy-top end, or there would've been very little left of their torso/head.

2) How can Ren NOT win this? From the movie I gathered he's been a sith for quite a while, and he'd been trained by luke before that, so you would assume he's at least a competent swordsman. Now Rey was already good with her staff, so I suppose that might translate to some basic melee skill with a lightsaber, but Finn was a goddamn janitor. He's had blaster training but the attack on that village was his first battle. How is he not cut down within a minute? And with his training, Ren REALLY should've been able to beat Rey.
Besides that, he seems laughably incompetent. Most of his screentime in the movie seems to consist of him telling the supreme leader (that's another thing. "supreme leader"? "the resistance"? The people naming things in this universe suck) that he can do something and then he immediately goes out and fails at whatever he said he'd do. I like how he's not as 'in charge' as vader was though. The First Order officers have no problem standing up to him. Good change.

3) Why does Ren keep thumping his leg? Does he have a malfunctioning prosthetic?

4) How does the First Order/New Republic/Resistance thing work geographically/politically? I'm assuming the First order is pretty much the remnants of the Empire, the New Republic is then the parts that have been liberated by the rebellion and the Resistance is the Republic forces in First Order territory? Does the Republic still exist after the First Order blew up 5 of their planets?
I'm a little disappointed that they couldn't find another way to up the stakes than by saying 'you know that Death Star that was stupidly overpowered and impractical? Let's make one that's 50 times more stupid and impractical!'

5) That scottish gang leader guy? Loved him! No further comment there. Just wanted to say that.

Well, I admit it might feel like it had zero emotional weight because I really didnt like Kylo Ren or anything he did or said, but no, he hasnt been chasing her the entire movie. He has been chasing her robot, and lukes location. Ren and Rey have little to no interaction and little to no reason to before that. If anything, the most emotional impact came from Chewbaccas rage over Hans death, and the fact that he chose to shoot at his best friends son. But that had nothing to do with the lightsaber fight, except the fact that Chewbacca hit Ren, which was probably why Rey didnt get chopped up.

As for Rey being "adopted" by Han, I didnt feel that at all. I felt that we were being groomed for Hans Death or at the very least someone else sitting in the pilot seat of the falcon. Their emotional connection was not that great besides admiration of meeting a famous Han Solo. Rey and Finns connection was a lot better, but he wasnt dead so who cares.

Also: Yes.

The Supreme Leader might be the worst name for a villain ever, maybe except Snoke. Good grief. And the even biggerer death star was also beyond lame. You'd think if they got the money to burn building another EVEN BIGGER fucking one of those...they'd make pretty fucking sure it wasnt blown up so easily. AGAIN. Honestly, I wonder how many star destroyers they could have built for that price, and how much more effective that would have been :|

The movie was a lot of fun, but also very dumb, and it seemed like it didnt always take the universe seriously, which is a terrible flaw.

Best moments for me:

Reys intro, and her walking out of the MASSIVE engine of the star destroyer or whatever class that ship is. Awe inspiring.

The intro of the Millenium Falcon, didnt see it coming at all, but realized I should have when it happened. 10/10

The first airfight afterwards in the Falcon. GREAT.

Han Solo yelling at Finn on the planet/death star: "Thats not how the force works!". Brilliant. Best quote of the movie, and probably the only one.

And of course, the thumbs up

This ended up being about more than the lightsaber fight, but whatever.

I was pleased with the movie, mostly because no one fucked it up in the way that Hayden did, but the story overall was very very weak. I will not judge it on its own though, it is a trilogy after all. But to me, its off to a mediocre start at best. I hope they can make the story come alive more, and be a bit more believable....and that they can redeem Ren (in my eyes, not in general)...but I doubt it.

It remains to be seen, and needless to say, I WILL see

Music was lacking, villains pathetic and had no menace to them.

 

[tzimize]

snip

Zero emotional weight? Were you watching the same movie I was? Ren has been hunting Finn and Rey for the entire movie. He killed Han, who Rey was pretty much starting to adopt as a surrogate father. Family is very important to her, hence her constant saying she needs to get back to jakku, and even then she was very happy and tempted that Han was offering her a job. And moments before she fights him Ren cuts down Finn, who she had built a rather strong bond with at this point.
I liked the fights in 7 the most out of any of the movies. There were some weird things/changes though.

1) The lightsabers seem to be less lethal. The way they connect with bodies they seem almost more like a physical stick that burns than a laser beam. When both Finn and Ren get hit and fall, they look like they've been knocked down rather than cut up, so either the lightsabre isn't as lethal as in the other films or they both got grazed with the extreme tippy-top end, or there would've been very little left of their torso/head.

2) How can Ren NOT win this? From the movie I gathered he's been a sith for quite a while, and he'd been trained by luke before that, so you would assume he's at least a competent swordsman. Now Rey was already good with her staff, so I suppose that might translate to some basic melee skill with a lightsaber, but Finn was a goddamn janitor. He's had blaster training but the attack on that village was his first battle. How is he not cut down within a minute? And with his training, Ren REALLY should've been able to beat Rey.
Besides that, he seems laughably incompetent. Most of his screentime in the movie seems to consist of him telling the supreme leader (that's another thing. "supreme leader"? "the resistance"? The people naming things in this universe suck) that he can do something and then he immediately goes out and fails at whatever he said he'd do. I like how he's not as 'in charge' as vader was though. The First Order officers have no problem standing up to him. Good change.

3) Why does Ren keep thumping his leg? Does he have a malfunctioning prosthetic?

4) How does the First Order/New Republic/Resistance thing work geographically/politically? I'm assuming the First order is pretty much the remnants of the Empire, the New Republic is then the parts that have been liberated by the rebellion and the Resistance is the Republic forces in First Order territory? Does the Republic still exist after the First Order blew up 5 of their planets?
I'm a little disappointed that they couldn't find another way to up the stakes than by saying 'you know that Death Star that was stupidly overpowered and impractical? Let's make one that's 50 times more stupid and impractical!'

5) That scottish gang leader guy? Loved him! No further comment there. Just wanted to say that.

Well, I admit it might feel like it had zero emotional weight because I really didnt like Kylo Ren or anything he did or said, but no, he hasnt been chasing her the entire movie. He has been chasing her robot, and lukes location. Ren and Rey have little to no interaction and little to no reason to before that. If anything, the most emotional impact came from Chewbaccas rage over Hans death, and the fact that he chose to shoot at his best friends son. But that had nothing to do with the lightsaber fight, except the fact that Chewbacca hit Ren, which was probably why Rey didnt get chopped up.

As for Rey being "adopted" by Han, I didnt feel that at all. I felt that we were being groomed for Hans Death or at the very least someone else sitting in the pilot seat of the falcon. Their emotional connection was not that great besides admiration of meeting a famous Han Solo. Rey and Finns connection was a lot better, but he wasnt dead so who cares.

Also: Yes.

The Supreme Leader might be the worst name for a villain ever, maybe except Snoke. Good grief. And the even biggerer death star was also beyond lame. You'd think if they got the money to burn building another EVEN BIGGER fucking one of those...they'd make pretty fucking sure it wasnt blown up so easily. AGAIN. Honestly, I wonder how many star destroyers they could have built for that price, and how much more effective that would have been :|

The movie was a lot of fun, but also very dumb, and it seemed like it didnt always take the universe seriously, which is a terrible flaw.

Best moments for me:

Reys intro, and her walking out of the MASSIVE engine of the star destroyer or whatever class that ship is. Awe inspiring.

The intro of the Millenium Falcon, didnt see it coming at all, but realized I should have when it happened. 10/10

The first airfight afterwards in the Falcon. GREAT.

Han Solo yelling at Finn on the planet/death star: "Thats not how the force works!". Brilliant. Best quote of the movie, and probably the only one.

And of course, the thumbs up

This ended up being about more than the lightsaber fight, but whatever.

I was pleased with the movie, mostly because no one fucked it up in the way that Hayden did, but the story overall was very very weak. I will not judge it on its own though, it is a trilogy after all. But to me, its off to a mediocre start at best. I hope they can make the story come alive more, and be a bit more believable....and that they can redeem Ren (in my eyes, not in general)...but I doubt it.

It remains to be seen, and needless to say, I WILL see

Music was lacking, villains pathetic and had no menace to them.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

A fight is supposed to feel like two or more people trying to kill each other, not two or more people doing a dance for strictly with a big glowstick in one hand.

 

[hermes]

Right now, I am mostly neutral, because the lightsaber fights we saw on VII are not meant to be compared with the prequels or the original sequels. That is because they feature fights between not very experienced characters (there is an argument to be made about the Kylo Ren actual skills, but for me the character works better if I think of him as a padawan-level force user, not a sith lord).

I think once Rey goes through some training, her skills (and the fights) will improve drastically, the same way it happened with Luke in the original trilogy...

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The Supreme Leader might be the worst name for a villain ever, maybe except Snoke.

Snoke isn't a good name, but...Dooku.

And the even biggerer death star was also beyond lame. You'd think if they got the money to burn building another EVEN BIGGER fucking one of those...they'd make pretty fucking sure it wasnt blown up so easily. AGAIN. Honestly, I wonder how many star destroyers they could have built for that price, and how much more effective that would have been :|

Derailing the thread slightly, but this always confused me. Death Stars are amazing. Based on their track record, I would be building nothing BUT Death Stars if I was an Empire-Like faction.

Thus far in Star Wars fiction we've had three Death Star like weapons. All three have been destroyed, and together they've destroyed 6(!) planets and one fleet. They're also improving in efficiency, with five of those planets and the fleet coming in the last firing.

The GDP required to make a Death Star is huge, yes, but compared to the GDP of entire planets? Especially core worlds like the ones we see destroyed? Can't do THAT with a fleet. In (ugh) Phantom Menace and Empire Strikes Back, huge fleets are barely effective at BLOCKADING worlds, let alone destroying them.

Additionally, you can only crew ~50 Star Destroyers with the crew of one Death Star. Far less if you diminish the troop compliment (over half of the Death Star's staff is, for some reason, regular Stormtroopers).

As to Starkiller Base...it didn't exactly go down easy. It required a jump to the planet's surface crewed by a legendary Smuggler and Wookie companion, and insider, and a semi-expert in Imperial design schematics. That created a tiny hole that required an ace pilot to sift through it and do the necessary damage. As embarrassing as that cascading failure was, I'd totally build another one if I had the means. FIVE planets in one shot. Ludicrously efficient. A+ piece of military hardware.

 

[Floppertje]

The Supreme Leader might be the worst name for a villain ever, maybe except Snoke.

Snoke isn't a good name, but...Dooku.

And the even biggerer death star was also beyond lame. You'd think if they got the money to burn building another EVEN BIGGER fucking one of those...they'd make pretty fucking sure it wasnt blown up so easily. AGAIN. Honestly, I wonder how many star destroyers they could have built for that price, and how much more effective that would have been :|

Derailing the thread slightly, but this always confused me. Death Stars are amazing. Based on their track record, I would be building nothing BUT Death Stars if I was an Empire-Like faction.

Thus far in Star Wars fiction we've had three Death Star like weapons. All three have been destroyed, and together they've destroyed 6(!) planets and one fleet. They're also improving in efficiency, with five of those planets and the fleet coming in the last firing.

The GDP required to make a Death Star is huge, yes, but compared to the GDP of entire planets? Especially core worlds like the ones we see destroyed? Can't do THAT with a fleet. In (ugh) Phantom Menace and Empire Strikes Back, huge fleets are barely effective at BLOCKADING worlds, let alone destroying them.

Additionally, you can only crew ~50 Star Destroyers with the crew of one Death Star. Far less if you diminish the troop compliment (over half of the Death Star's staff is, for some reason, regular Stormtroopers).

As to Starkiller Base...it didn't exactly go down easy. It required a jump to the planet's surface crewed by a legendary Smuggler and Wookie companion, and insider, and a semi-expert in Imperial design schematics. That created a tiny hole that required an ace pilot to sift through it and do the necessary damage. As embarrassing as that cascading failure was, I'd totally build another one if I had the means. FIVE planets in one shot. Ludicrously efficient. A+ piece of military hardware.

Not sure if you're being serious but i'll treat it as such because I want to.
Death stars and other planet destroying weapons are never going to be effective because they can only be in one place, while the 50 fleets you could build for the same money can be split up. And what if your objective as a galaxy-spanning empire is something other than the complete extermination of the planets you rule? Like... you might want to tax them or something like that. That's hard to do when they're spacedust. Also, it doesn't allow you a lot of diplomatic wiggle room when you put all your eggs in one basket and your only options are 'sternly worded letter' or 'genocide' with no middle ground.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Not sure if you're being serious but i'll treat it as such because I want to.

Sure! It's more fun that way.

Death stars and other planet destroying weapons are never going to be effective because they can only be in one place, while the 50 fleets you could build for the same money can be split up.

Starkiller Base was firing across systems. Being in one place was meaningless for it.

Also...50 *ships*. You could staff 50 ships for what it takes to staff one Death Star (I checked, even). We can presume that staffing becomes a limitation, especially for ideologically polarized factions like The First Order. Even for the Empire, training ~40,000 individuals per ship has to come with a massive cost all on its own. It's not just the hardware cost that needs to be considered.

And what if your objective as a galaxy-spanning empire is something other than the complete extermination of the planets you rule? Like... you might want to tax them or something like that. That's hard to do when they're spacedust. Also, it doesn't allow you a lot of diplomatic wiggle room when you put all your eggs in one basket and your only options are 'sternly worded letter' or 'genocide' with no middle ground.

That's true, they are a very single-function weapon. However, if you can obliterate any meaningful military resistance with one or two volleys, you can then build a SMALL fleet and anticipate no functional resistance.

 

[DoPo]

The Supreme Leader might be the worst name for a villain ever, maybe except Snoke.

Snoke isn't a good name, but...Dooku.

Or Kit Fisto.

OK, in his defence he's neither a villain, nor is the name even mentioned in the movie (to my knowledge), but it's still not that good.

As to Starkiller Base...it didn't exactly go down easy. It required a jump to the planet's surface crewed by a legendary Smuggler and Wookie companion, and insider, and a semi-expert in Imperial design schematics. That created a tiny hole that required an ace pilot to sift through it and do the necessary damage. As embarrassing as that cascading failure was, I'd totally build another one if I had the means. FIVE planets in one shot. Ludicrously efficient. A+ piece of military hardware.

Yeah, it's not like the new-and-bigger-and-better-Death-Start wasn't protected. Heck, it was better protected than the original Death Star - that one had its plans leaked which was the McGuffin of the movie and its downfall. It was essentially compromised before the movie even started - it was only a matter of time until it was destroyed. This one didn't have an information leak - it was obviously way better protected. If it wasn't for some, pretty much miraculous combination of factors, it would have been much harder to kill:

First, there was Finn, who was the only source of inside information that the rebels had. Without him they wouldn't have been able to attack the weak spot for massive damage. Moreover, it seemed like Finn's defection came as a surprise to the First Order - I am fairly sure that if they suspected it, Finn would have been "fixed" in one way or another. Thus robbing the Rebels of the a VERY valuable information. Sure, presumably they'd still be able to blow it up eventually but I somehow doubt it would have been just in time.

Second, there was Han Solo, who seemed the only person ingeniousstupid enough to light jump through the shields. I very much doubt the First Order didn't know that could be done. I very much think they didn't expect anybody to actually do it or to succeed.

Third, there is...Han Solo. But in a different way. OK, let's assume that somebody else light jumped through the planet's shields and attempted to lower it and then add some explosives to the mix. They'd have been more aggressively opposed - Kylo Ren immediately knew his father was on the planet. It seemed like he let Han go, so Kylo could then kill him. Darth Gollum was egging him about it, also Kylo himself seemed to be eager for the opportunity. I assume he thought that would somehow make him more Sith or something but whatever. It didn't seem really that random that Kylo Ren then casually walked where Han was. Also, there were storm troopers around, as well, but didn't fire in order for Kylo to do his Sith thing. And if it wasn't for the Sith thing, then I very much doubt that Han and Chewie would have had as much opportunity to plant explosives.

Fourth, speaking of explosives - without them, the rebel fleet would have never blown up the whatever they had to blow up. They were shown to be hitting it heavy and there wasn't really much effect. With the explosives and the rebel fleet combined, the Death-Planet was destroyed just destroyed and just in the nick of time.

Sure, it's not like the First Order couldn't have prevented it - they totally could. But at the same time, it was a combination of several things that brought it down, each with miniscule chances of succeeding. It seems totally plausible for them to not actively guard against these, either. It'd be like trying to protect your house from being damaged with as much reasonable protection you can have and then some kid kicks a ball, which scares off the neighbour's cat and then this cascades into a Rubegoldberg-like , who happens to be blind with one eye from a fight it got into just yesterday, which in turn makes the cat not see a vase as it turns the corner and so on in a Rube Goldberg-like sequence of events that eventually ends with one of your house's walls knocked down. I'm pretty sure you could protect against that only I don't think many people consider it a major treath.