Poll: Star Wars VII's lightsaber combat changes, yay or nay? (Spoilers)

[Floppertje]

Not sure if you're being serious but i'll treat it as such because I want to.

Sure! It's more fun that way.

Death stars and other planet destroying weapons are never going to be effective because they can only be in one place, while the 50 fleets you could build for the same money can be split up.

Starkiller Base was firing across systems. Being in one place was meaningless for it.

Also...50 *ships*. You could staff 50 ships for what it takes to staff one Death Star (I checked, even). We can presume that staffing becomes a limitation, especially for ideologically polarized factions like The First Order. Even for the Empire, training ~40,000 individuals per ship has to come with a massive cost all on its own. It's not just the hardware cost that needs to be considered.

And what if your objective as a galaxy-spanning empire is something other than the complete extermination of the planets you rule? Like... you might want to tax them or something like that. That's hard to do when they're spacedust. Also, it doesn't allow you a lot of diplomatic wiggle room when you put all your eggs in one basket and your only options are 'sternly worded letter' or 'genocide' with no middle ground.

That's true, they are a very single-function weapon. However, if you can obliterate any meaningful military resistance with one or two volleys, you can then build a SMALL fleet and anticipate no functional resistance.

sure, they needed the staff for 50 ships to staff the starkiller (also... that name is still as lame as it was in The Force Unleashed), but they could just hire the rest with all the money that thing had to cost. Consider also that not every ship is as large as a star destroyer and thus wouldn't need as much crew members. I don't actually think raising that many people would be a problem. The Red Army raised millions in WW2, so if you control even a handfull of planets manpower shouldn't be an issue, and money obviously isn't when you can turn a freaking planet into a superweapon. That was a one-of-a-kind project, since ships can be mass-produced their cost would be relatively far lower.
And there's still the issue of why you would WANT to destroy all these planets. It'd be far more profitable if they can actually get some money from the planets they conquer. Now there's nothing to rule over.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

sure, they needed the staff for 50 ships to staff the starkiller (also... that name is still as lame as it was in The Force Unleashed), but they could just hire the rest with all the money that thing had to cost.

It's an homage. Blame Lucas. Luke Skywalker's original name was Luke Starkiller.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Adventures_of_the_Starkiller,_Episode_I:_The_Star_Wars

Consider also that not every ship is as large as a star destroyer and thus wouldn't need as much crew members. I don't actually think raising that many people would be a problem. The Red Army raised millions in WW2, so if you control even a handfull of planets manpower shouldn't be an issue, and money obviously isn't when you can turn a freaking planet into a superweapon. That was a one-of-a-kind project, since ships can be mass-produced their cost would be relatively far lower.

Well, I bring up Star Destroyers as the gold standard in space superiority. A fleet of them couldn't keep the Rebels from escaping a ruined base on Hoth (which required a land force). "Fleets" don't seem terribly effective, at least not in the films.

And there's still the issue of why you would WANT to destroy all these planets. It'd be far more profitable if they can actually get some money from the planets they conquer. Now there's nothing to rule over.

It's a big galaxy! You can rule over the ones that are left. The ones that are small, independent, can't field a substantial military threat, etc.

 

[Floppertje]

sure, they needed the staff for 50 ships to staff the starkiller (also... that name is still as lame as it was in The Force Unleashed), but they could just hire the rest with all the money that thing had to cost.

It's an homage. Blame Lucas. Luke Skywalker's original name was Luke Starkiller.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Adventures_of_the_Starkiller,_Episode_I:_The_Star_Wars

Consider also that not every ship is as large as a star destroyer and thus wouldn't need as much crew members. I don't actually think raising that many people would be a problem. The Red Army raised millions in WW2, so if you control even a handfull of planets manpower shouldn't be an issue, and money obviously isn't when you can turn a freaking planet into a superweapon. That was a one-of-a-kind project, since ships can be mass-produced their cost would be relatively far lower.

Well, I bring up Star Destroyers as the gold standard in space superiority. A fleet of them couldn't keep the Rebels from escaping a ruined base on Hoth (which required a land force). "Fleets" don't seem terribly effective, at least not in the films.

And there's still the issue of why you would WANT to destroy all these planets. It'd be far more profitable if they can actually get some money from the planets they conquer. Now there's nothing to rule over.

It's a big galaxy! You can rule over the ones that are left. The ones that are small, independent, can't field a substantial military threat, etc.

Oh, my bad. That name is as lame now as it was 45 years ago when lucas came up with it come to think of it, this series has been responsible for some truly cringeworthy names...

Star Destroyers are indeed very good (and awesome)! But they're kind of like the space version of a warhammer. sometimes you need something a little more subtle and more maneuverable, like a cruiser or a corvette. Ideally a fleet would consist of a mix of these, and since the Star Destroyers are the largest, the rest is cheaper and requires less staff. I'd say one or two star destroyers and a bunch of smaller ships would be very well capable of subduing a system. I chalk up the ineffectiveness of fleets to general imperial incompetence and plot convenience.

Yeah, there would be other systems to rule over, but still... you're cutting into your own profit margin there. I mean... how much money could you really squeeze from a place like jakku? Seems like the places that can actually afford a military are where the good loot is.

on another topic... I got a rathar Japanese vibe from the scene where Hux gives his speech. was that just me? I'm used to the 'evil space empire dresses like nazis' thing by now, but this was new to me.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Oh, my bad. That name is as lame now as it was 45 years ago when lucas came up with it come to think of it, this series has been responsible for some truly cringeworthy names...

I like to think the slightly cornball glaze the franchise has is part of its essential appeal. It was, after all, inspired by the old Flash Gordon adventure serials. This isn't Blade Runner, or Solaris. It's campy Space Opera. We had a fat pilot named Porkins. A drug dealer named Elan Sleazebaggano. Darth Maul has a brother whose named is pronounced "Savage Oppress". Eventually you just have to give in and accept it in good humor.

Star Destroyers are indeed very good (and awesome)! But they're kind of like the space version of a warhammer. sometimes you need something a little more subtle and more maneuverable, like a cruiser or a corvette. Ideally a fleet would consist of a mix of these, and since the Star Destroyers are the largest, the rest is cheaper and requires less staff. I'd say one or two star destroyers and a bunch of smaller ships would be very well capable of subduing a system. I chalk up the ineffectiveness of fleets to general imperial incompetence and plot convenience.

The New Republic had a large, varied fleet. It was destroyed by the Starkiller base!

We can chalk up inept and destroyed fleets to plot contrivance, but the same remains true of the three destroyed planetary superweapons. At the end of the day EVERYTHING is plot contrivance, because we're talking about screenplays, not historical events.

Yeah, there would be other systems to rule over, but still... you're cutting into your own profit margin there. I mean... how much money could you really squeeze from a place like jakku? Seems like the places that can actually afford a military are where the good loot is.

You could argue the real fumble was Alderaan, I'm told they're a peaceful planet with no military (although the person who tells us is a known insurgent, they might have been lying). The First Order destroyed the breadbasket worlds of the New Republic and crippled its military power in a single shot. I say BRAVO, Starkiller Base. Worth every penny. If you're evil, of course, it was a terrible Space Crime.

I got a rather Japanese vibe from the scene where Hux gives his speech. was that just me? I'm used to the 'evil space empire dresses like nazis' thing by now, but this was new to me.

I'd need to know more about what you mean by "Japanese Vibe". I do hope they give Hux more to do in Episode VIII. Criminal under-use of Domnhall Gleeson.

 

[Floppertje]

snip

I'd need to know more about what you mean by "Japanese Vibe". I do hope they give Hux more to do in Episode VIII. Criminal under-use of Domnhall Gleeson.

when he was giving his speech and they switched to that shot of all the stormtroopers in formation with the standing red flags... It reminded me of imperial japan. Maybe because of Red Alert 3's Empire of the Rising Sun?

I'm not really familiar with Hux's actor, but I liked him as a character. Especially liked how the First Order military didn't just let Ren treat them like they're his servants, particularly since Ren's not very competent.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I'm not really familiar with Hux's actor, but I liked him as a character.

Really? You should check out Ex Machina. One of 2015's best films.

 

[Loonyyy]

snip

I'd need to know more about what you mean by "Japanese Vibe". I do hope they give Hux more to do in Episode VIII. Criminal under-use of Domnhall Gleeson.

when he was giving his speech and they switched to that shot of all the stormtroopers in formation with the standing red flags... It reminded me of imperial japan. Maybe because of Red Alert 3's Empire of the Rising Sun?

I'm not really familiar with Hux's actor, but I liked him as a character. Especially liked how the First Order military didn't just let Ren treat them like they're his servants, particularly since Ren's not very competent.

I'm pretty sure they were referencing other... red banners. Ones with a black and white logo in the middle. Hux's delivery seemed basically cribbed from one of Adolf Hitler's agitated spitting, almost tantrum like rants. Same with the salute, it felt comically similar to footage of old Nazi rallies.

I came away thinking that Hux was basically meant to be Hitler. They were a bit on the nose with it, but that's part of the charm.

 

[Floppertje]

snip

I'd need to know more about what you mean by "Japanese Vibe". I do hope they give Hux more to do in Episode VIII. Criminal under-use of Domnhall Gleeson.

when he was giving his speech and they switched to that shot of all the stormtroopers in formation with the standing red flags... It reminded me of imperial japan. Maybe because of Red Alert 3's Empire of the Rising Sun?

I'm not really familiar with Hux's actor, but I liked him as a character. Especially liked how the First Order military didn't just let Ren treat them like they're his servants, particularly since Ren's not very competent.

I'm pretty sure they were referencing other... red banners. Ones with a black and white logo in the middle. Hux's delivery seemed basically cribbed from one of Adolf Hitler's agitated spitting, almost tantrum like rants. Same with the salute, it felt comically similar to footage of old Nazi rallies.

I came away thinking that Hux was basically meant to be Hitler. They were a bit on the nose with it, but that's part of the charm.

Yeah, the nazi symbolism was kinda front-and-centre there, but that was sort of expected. Space empires looking like nazis is old hat (oh, hi starship troopers!). Maybe i'm just imagening things, but i thought I picked up on something. And there's no reason they couldn't take cues from both the japanese and the germans, right?

 

[Specter Von Baren]

The fights brought things back to one of the reasons I loved General Grievous (And why I will always loathe Episode III for the butchering it did to him).


For one, it shows that there's not some sort of holy taboo against people without aptitude in the force being able to pick up a lightsaber and use it. It's a sword made of lasers, not a holy artifact that only Jedi can touch. Finn probably trained in using the same sort of riot baton that TR-8R used against him and so he understands the principles of using a melee weapon and can at least wield a lightsaber without looking like a complete idiot.

There's a lot more power behind the blows and you notice more individuality between the people fighting, Finn fights like someone that is book smart in fighting, he knows how to use a weapon like that but his emotions make his strikes unsure and he usually is trying to get away. Rey is stuck between not knowing what she's doing at all and being agile and calm with the force guiding her, she starts her lightsaber duel out trying to just stab Ben with it and is mostly blocking but then near the end she starts fighting like she knows what she's doing. Ben fights like someone that is familiar with their weapon and is used to wielding it, but he also clearly lacks experience using it against an equal opponent and he doesn't control his emotions during the fight and sometimes he gets too forceful and overextends himself.

 

[Loonyyy]

snip

I'd need to know more about what you mean by "Japanese Vibe". I do hope they give Hux more to do in Episode VIII. Criminal under-use of Domnhall Gleeson.

when he was giving his speech and they switched to that shot of all the stormtroopers in formation with the standing red flags... It reminded me of imperial japan. Maybe because of Red Alert 3's Empire of the Rising Sun?

I'm not really familiar with Hux's actor, but I liked him as a character. Especially liked how the First Order military didn't just let Ren treat them like they're his servants, particularly since Ren's not very competent.

I'm pretty sure they were referencing other... red banners. Ones with a black and white logo in the middle. Hux's delivery seemed basically cribbed from one of Adolf Hitler's agitated spitting, almost tantrum like rants. Same with the salute, it felt comically similar to footage of old Nazi rallies.

I came away thinking that Hux was basically meant to be Hitler. They were a bit on the nose with it, but that's part of the charm.

Yeah, the nazi symbolism was kinda front-and-centre there, but that was sort of expected. Space empires looking like nazis is old hat (oh, hi starship troopers!). Maybe i'm just imagening things, but i thought I picked up on something. And there's no reason they couldn't take cues from both the japanese and the germans, right?

Oh sure, my points of reference for Imperial Japan didn't include that though. Then again, it's more that I haven't seen anything similar that they did, then again, what I've seen is mostly movies of very dubious accuracy. I don't think Michael Bay's Pearl Harbour, or Call of Duty World at War have tought me much worth knowing haha.

Also, Hux was awesome. Just so vicious. That entire speech scene is just amazing, he's relatively calm everywhere else, but he's just so unhinged and going at it so well there.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

snip

I'd need to know more about what you mean by "Japanese Vibe". I do hope they give Hux more to do in Episode VIII. Criminal under-use of Domnhall Gleeson.

when he was giving his speech and they switched to that shot of all the stormtroopers in formation with the standing red flags... It reminded me of imperial japan. Maybe because of Red Alert 3's Empire of the Rising Sun?

I'm not really familiar with Hux's actor, but I liked him as a character. Especially liked how the First Order military didn't just let Ren treat them like they're his servants, particularly since Ren's not very competent.

I'm pretty sure they were referencing other... red banners. Ones with a black and white logo in the middle. Hux's delivery seemed basically cribbed from one of Adolf Hitler's agitated spitting, almost tantrum like rants. Same with the salute, it felt comically similar to footage of old Nazi rallies.

I came away thinking that Hux was basically meant to be Hitler. They were a bit on the nose with it, but that's part of the charm.

Yeah, the nazi symbolism was kinda front-and-centre there, but that was sort of expected. Space empires looking like nazis is old hat (oh, hi starship troopers!). Maybe i'm just imagening things, but i thought I picked up on something. And there's no reason they couldn't take cues from both the japanese and the germans, right?

You'll also notice that the Empire in all its forms has always been made up only of humans. Racial superiority much?

 

[Bernzz]

I voted yes. Felt like a good mix of the weighty combat in the originals with some more flashy stuff from the prequels.
Kylo Ren's practical usage of the vents in his saber was awesome too.

Can't wait for the other fights in the future.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

snip

I'd need to know more about what you mean by "Japanese Vibe". I do hope they give Hux more to do in Episode VIII. Criminal under-use of Domnhall Gleeson.

when he was giving his speech and they switched to that shot of all the stormtroopers in formation with the standing red flags... It reminded me of imperial japan. Maybe because of Red Alert 3's Empire of the Rising Sun?

I'm not really familiar with Hux's actor, but I liked him as a character. Especially liked how the First Order military didn't just let Ren treat them like they're his servants, particularly since Ren's not very competent.

I'm pretty sure they were referencing other... red banners. Ones with a black and white logo in the middle. Hux's delivery seemed basically cribbed from one of Adolf Hitler's agitated spitting, almost tantrum like rants. Same with the salute, it felt comically similar to footage of old Nazi rallies.

I came away thinking that Hux was basically meant to be Hitler. They were a bit on the nose with it, but that's part of the charm.

Yeah, the nazi symbolism was kinda front-and-centre there, but that was sort of expected. Space empires looking like nazis is old hat (oh, hi starship troopers!). Maybe i'm just imagening things, but i thought I picked up on something. And there's no reason they couldn't take cues from both the japanese and the germans, right?

You'll also notice that the Empire in all its forms has always been made up only of humans. Racial superiority much?

The EU delved pretty deep into that concept. I'm unsure if that was what Lucas was going for, however, or if it was simply easier to make all the Stormtroopers suits, and the rest of the Imperial's costume selection, more uniform.

 

[sumanoskae]

Spoiler

Kylo Ren and his buddies are supposed to have killed all the other Jedi in Luke's new order; I'm not buying that he doesn't know how to fucking fight.

In response to this.

Spoiler

No, he didn't, he's never even met a trained jedi, him and the 7 other knights of Ren killed a bunch of learners with no lightsabers. Until the Finn fight he's never fought anyone else with a lightsaber as far as we know. then he run in to a another force user with a light saber and while heavily injured gets his arse kicked, unsurprisingly, since the other person isn't in her first melee combat with live weapons.

Spoiler

Is this canonical information? I wasn't aware there was any supplemental material for The Force Awakens as of yet. There is nothing in the film itself to suggest that the people he killed were in some way disadvantaged. Are you suggesting that he defeated them with his superior latent power in the Force?

 

[sXeth]

I've generally thought it usually made sense how it was portrayed.

In the Original/Middle Episodes, Vader has obvious physical problems, and in all 3 lightsaber battles, theres sort of an undercurrent that they aren't actually trying to kill their opponent. Obi-Wan needs to distract Vader as long as possible. Vader might be questioning killing his mentor. Vader certainly doesn't want to kill Luke. And Luke doesn't want to fall to the dark side or kill his father. Luke being the only one fully physically able is offset also by his being completely untrained.

In the prequels, most of the people dueling are fully trained in both lightsaber combat and using the force. Its not explicitly stated in the movies, but based on other media, its basically two swordmasters dueling while having super speed, limited precognition, telekinesis, and potentially the ability to hit the other guy with a hypnotic suggestion. Even when they're seemingly spinning around for no reason, they're hypothetically countering attacks that could have occurred, or possibly reacting to their opponent using a mind trick to fake them out.

In Awakens, its much more clumsy and basic. Kylo and (maybe) Rey are only barely trained (or naturally adept, whichever). Finn at best has whatever vague melee training a Stormtrooper gets. Naturally they aren't going to get up to the tricks that use enhanced force powers or saber training.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

Spoiler

Kylo Ren and his buddies are supposed to have killed all the other Jedi in Luke's new order; I'm not buying that he doesn't know how to fucking fight.

In response to this.

Spoiler

No, he didn't, he's never even met a trained jedi, him and the 7 other knights of Ren killed a bunch of learners with no lightsabers. Until the Finn fight he's never fought anyone else with a lightsaber as far as we know. then he run in to a another force user with a light saber and while heavily injured gets his arse kicked, unsurprisingly, since the other person isn't in her first melee combat with live weapons.

Spoiler

Is this canonical information? I wasn't aware there was any supplemental material for The Force Awakens as of yet. There is nothing in the film itself to suggest that the people he killed were in some way disadvantaged. Are you suggesting that he defeated them with his superior latent power in the Force?

Spoiler

There is also nothing in the movie that suggests they weren't disadvantaged in some way. Kylo and his buddies are Dark Side users and probably don't feel very obligated to fight fairly. Perhaps the Jedi trainees were struck down in their beds or ambushed during some vulnerable moment. Perhaps they held back out of reluctancy to hurt one of their own or were simply shocked at Kylo's betrayal and couldn't fight to their full potential.

Thing is, we don't know the full details of what happened between Luke, his student and Kylo and the other Knights of Ren. So anything we say about it is pretty much conjecture at this point.

That's actually something I'd like to see explored more in Episode VIII. Why is Snoke seemingly so threatened by Luke? Is he afraid that if his Knights of Ren were to face off against a bonafide Jedi, they'd fall short? Maybe because even he himself wouldn't be sure of victory? If so, what would happen if that last full-fledged Jedi were left alone to train more? Better to nip those plans in the bud then, wouldn't it?

In fact, I'd like to see a fight between Luke and one or more of the Knights (or perhaps just Kylo) and have Luke just whipe the floor with them. It would show why Snoke and the First Order consider him enough of a threat to basically organise a galaxy-wide manhunt for him AND it would make for a neat reversal from Luke's own duel with Vader in Episode V, another case of a half-trained force use going up against the real thing.

 

[Michel Henzel]

Yeah seems I'm very much in the minority but I love the fast paced lightsaber combat, it's so much more awesome and made Jedi's and Sith feel like they were a force to be reckoned with. To be totally honest, the lightsaber fights in the original trilogy was downright dull. And it never felt that being a Jedi was all that they tried to make them out to be.