Poll: Star Wars VII's lightsaber combat changes, yay or nay? (Spoilers)

[The Enquirer]

TL;DR: I liked that there's more emotional weight to the fights and that it looked like they were actually trying to hit each other in this and the original trilogy even though there wasn't as much choreography in them as the prequels, which could have used a little less choreography and a little more weight to each swing.

That's not true at all. Clearly fake fight look fake and uninteresting. The originals had fights that where much more interesting to watch then the prequels.

No, what you said was not true at all. The fights were well choreographed and had neat moves in them.The fights in the originals were dull as fuck and amounted to "Dude 1 swings, Dude 2 blocks, Dude 2 swings, Dude 1 blocks, rinse and repeat." They worked only because of the novelty of seeing people duke it out with energy blades, but adding actual fight choreography to that improved it immensely.

This does not at all look like a duel between a master warrior and his rogue apprentice. This looks, as I said earlier, like a fight between a senior citizen and an amputee. Because it is. And spoiler alert, unless you are whacked in the head, those aren't really interesting to watch. And actually a bit squicky.
When you think about it, Darth Vader actually kinda sucks at lightsaber combat.

I can see points that you're both bringing up.

In both emotional weight and the actual fighting, I feel there was simply more weight to the fights in the prequels though they may not have necessarily been as fun to watch for some. Luke losing his hand seemed to have more impact than Anakin losing his entire arm. Even though there was less choreography, it felt like (arguably with the exception of the very first fight on the Death Star) they were really trying to hit each other.

In other cases there's little-no emotional weight between characters fighting against one another. In the prequels I'd say the only exceptions would be Obi-Wan and Anakin vs Count Dooku on the Invisible Hand and Obi-Wan vs Anakin. You could make a case for Mace Windu vs Palpatine but they took a bunch of other Jedi that we hardly knew anything about (a movie should stand on it's own, so you can't pull from anything outside of the movie series to add weight to something in the movie). As cool as the Darth Maul fight was he hardly spoke during the movie and was there just to look cool up until he killed Qui-Gon, then got offed a few minutes later. Maul not showing up again is my biggest grievance with the prequels.

Now for the original trilogy, yea, there wasn't as much choreography in them, which can be seen as a good or bad thing as both of you have stated. But there is more emotional weight to them. In Episode 4 there's a slight build up to the fight with Obi-Wan having been betrayed by Darth Vader (granted that's about as much as Yoda vs Dooku, which isn't much) and yes, the fight is slow paced and could have had something a bit meatier to it. In Episode 5 we've spent a lot of the movie building up to this fight scene, and there's added weight to it because of Obi-Wan having been killed previously. And in Episode 6 we've got a huge build up to the fight scene between them and the tension continues to mount throughout.

Just my two cents.

 

[immortalfrieza]

I thought Episode 7's lightsaber combat it was appropriate for three rank amateurs in both using a lightsaber and The Force (if they really could at all in Finn's case) fighting each other, but I hope it gets faster and more acrobatic in future installments just like the prequels were like to reflect the growing skill of the combatants. I consider the Prequel lightsaber fights the best overall at this point because it showed several Masters fighting each other, of course the fights end with someone losing a limb or decapitated (not true for Yoda Vs. Dooku and Yoda Vs. Palpatine BTW) but otherwise not even scratching each other. It's very believable that people that are actually experienced in using those kinds of weapons would fight like that. Experts that are using weapons that can cut through almost anything especially ones that have no weight in the blade are going to fight against each other in a way that does everything they can to avoid being hit by each other while also avoiding hitting themselves in the process. A lightsaber fight isn't like a sword fight or fights with any number of other melee weapons where the fighters can afford to take a few hits here and there yet shrug it off and keep fighting, the prequels reflected that. A fight between any number of lightsaber duelists that actually know what they are doing is going to end in only 2 ways, either the duelists are going to cut and run at some point or a limb or head is going to be lost and the fight obviously is going to be over after that. Of course the fights are going to look choreographed, not only because they actually are but because the combatants involved are actually trained in the proper movements in a lightsaber duel, which means they have a lot of practiced and repetitive movements, just like someone that spent years learning to do particular dances has difficulty not lapsing into those same routines when trying to do something new. Most of it is just for effect anyway, just like that silly lightsaber twirling gif upthread, like almost everything in Star Wars Rule of Cool is the only reason needed for it's existence.

As for the the Original trilogy lightsaber fights, they were fine but ultimately they were just the product of their time. The fights are slow and ponderous in universe because the 3 combatants involved 2 were old, weak, out of practice, and crippled and the other was barely trained in lightsaber combat if at all and out of universe because the technology just wasn't there yet to give us the same sort of fights we see in the prequels. Fights in The Original trilogy had more "emotion" as Mars Atlas above put it only because the filmmakers were compensating for that lack of technology. The Original trilogy would have been the same as the prequels had if they had the technology and budget to do it like that back then.

 

[springheeljack]

The fights in the prequel trilogy are a joke oh sure they might have looked really cool back when those movies were made but now with all the advancements in CGI and technology they look rather silly. The only light saber fighting aside from the original and the new one that I really thought was great was during that Clone wars mini series

 

[chaser5000]

I loved it. They did a much better of capturing why the lightsaber duels in the original trilogy were so good. Its not the choreography, its the emotion. The one in A New Hope hardly qualifies as a duel at all. They're not really fighting with swords as they are fighting with words and faith. In Empire Strikes Back Luke is clearly outmatched in both dueling skill and mastery of the Force. He simply can't keep up and Vader is mocking him the entire time silently by not taking a lunge to defeat him when he has the chance. He even starts using the Force to throw objects at him, teasing him maliciously. Its great because it makes Luke feel powerless, which is important because Vader wants him to be lured to the Dark Side. In Return of the Jedi, it isn't choreography that wins the day, it is pure rage. Luke lets go of all of his restrain and just anhillates Vader.

That said they split the difference, leaning far more heavily over to the original trilogy. Is there more action? Yes. But its action with emotional heft. They get bruised and cut and stabbed. They feel pain during the fight and lash out at their opponent by punching and kicking them. The fight in TFA wasn't a pure emotional gauntlet with no real fight like in the original trilogy and it was flashy dancing like the prequels but a middle ground between the two that is much dirtier for it. They felt a lot like the lightsaber duels you had with others when you were a kid.

PS. That's what the crossguards on Kylo's lightsaber were for.

YES! So glad you made a point about it. I thought it was stupid as fuck in terms of strategy but it fits perfectly when you treat it not as a defense, not even as an offense really, but as a way for him to be sadistic to those he is fighting in battle.

Basically my thoughts about the light saber fights in the OT and Prequels. The way the fights were more than just fights but helped to reveal things about the characters.

The cross guards on Ren's saber are because the crystal in it is cracked most likely caused when he destroyed the new jedi order, which is why his blade looks less stable and the cross guard are vents for excess energy, which is a pretty clever metaphor for Ren himself. Also which is probably a reason he wants Luke's old saber since it's undamaged.

I still don't believe Rey beating him makes any sense. Yes, he was injured but not to bad to prevent him catching up to Rey and Fin in the first place. Yes, Ren is clearly no master swordsman, but that was literally the first time Rey had used a lightsaber, Fin had more experience then her.

 

[K12]

Mixed feelings. The slower fights felt more like they were actually trying to attack each other rather than dancing about for the sake of it. I think that Jedi would be very deliberate in their movements, they aren't the kind of people who would be showing off and doing backflips for the sake of it.

The prequels fights use lots of busy movement to create the illusion of jeopardy and aggression rather than having genuinely well thought out action that works with the characters and advances the plot, it's basically like using the shakey-cam trick. I loved the Darth Maul fight when I firsted watched it at aged 10 but it's boring and silly to me now.

The Obi-Wan/Darth Vader fight from Star Wars does kind of look crap if you're only watching it casually however the good acting throughout the film make it easy for me to believe that a lot of the fight is going on in their heads (i.e. trying to intuit each other movements and only swinging when it's necessary)

There's definitely a happy middle to be found that shows off the jedi's skills without making it look like that's all that you're doing.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

There is merit to both views here I find; the fights in the Original Trilogy had a certain dramatic weight to them, though it probably helped that there are all of I think three actual lightsaber duels in the OT and all are intrinsic to the plot:

Obi-Wan vs. Darth Vader: the master against the fallen student

Darth Vader vs. Luke Skywalker: hero against the villain

Darth Vader vs. Luke Skywalker mkII: father against son


However since the Prequel Trilogy takes place when the Jedi were arguably at the height of their presence in the galaxy and the Sith were a reasonable up front threat then there are obviously more of them so the dramatic tension is lost in all but a few of the important ones - and even that will be hotly debated. So as there are more Jedi, there are more lightsaber fights so the prevailing logic was probably that if they're gonna make this a regular thing, it may as well be fun and interesting to watch. Again mileage will vary and I got more of mine out of The Clone Wars.

Actually there's a point: are Kylo or Rey going to get up to some of the truly extravagant shenanigans enjoyed by their animated forebears?

 

[RealRT]

When you think about it, Darth Vader actually kinda sucks at lightsaber combat.

It may be clumsy, but at least it looks like a fight that could actually happen instead of the impossibly choreographed "aim for everything EXCEPT your opponent" fights from the prequels. I mean hell, the entire argument is always reliant on comparing the best prequel fight scene (Phantom Menace) with the worst original one (New Hope). Yet when one looks at the other two, the prequels don't have a snowball's chance in hell of holding up.



It's an argument of style over substance vs style with substance.

And spoiler alert, unless you are whacked in the head, those aren't really interesting to watch.

On the contrary, one who is whacked on the head would be much more likely to take the fights that are purely stylistic but without substance over the ones that are both stylistic and substance filled.

We're discussing two superpowered space knights with swords, blades of which are made out of pure energy, having a duel. The "look like it could actually happen" argument can go straight to hell.
Anakin vs Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith blows those two out of the water (and the Phantom Menace fight, for that matter). No, it's not an argument of style over substance vs style with substance. It's an argument of style over substance vs substance without style. Yeah, the Empire duel is probably the best one of the originals (I don't like the ROTJ duel, Vader looks like he just threw the fight), but it's still nothing to write home about in terms of visuals. People like them not because they are that awesome as swordfights, people like them because it's Luke and Vader. Which is a valid reason, but has nothing to do with how the fight choreography is done.
Star Wars is not some great gritty realistic sci-fi masterpiece. It's pure escapist fantasy, a fairy tale. And as such, it's allowed style over substance as long as it ends up in a great visual spectacle. And the duels from the prequels are just that, a great visual spectacle that can be appreciated for complex choreography and stunt work. Any Joe Schmoe can just pick up a stick and swing it and look totally realistic doing that, but, remind me, why the hell should I pay to watch that?

And spoiler alert, unless you are whacked in the head, those aren't really interesting to watch.

On the contrary, one who is whacked on the head would be much more likely to take the fights that are purely stylistic but without substance over the ones that are both stylistic and substance filled.

As for "whacked in the head", I meant only somebody whacked in the head would want to see an old guy fight an amputee. That's squicky. But since you went there, you gotta be whacked in the head to want to see a fight that has nothing worth watching in it.

 

[RealRT]

Maul not showing up again is my biggest grievance with the prequels.

Did you watch Clone Wars?

 

[The Enquirer]

Maul not showing up again is my biggest grievance with the prequels.

Did you watch Clone Wars?

Did you read my comment?

(a movie should stand on it's own, so you can't pull from anything outside of the movie series to add weight to something in the movie)

With one of the key words you quoted being prequels, I thought we were both under the impression I was strictly talking about the movies. Though to quickly answer your question, yes, I have, and The Clone Wars did what the prequel movies should have done. Part of the reason the Maul story arc was so well received was because these characters were able to actually capitalize on an interaction they had in the past, making it both personal for the characters as well as making the audience more emotionally invested in it. The fact remains that in the movies he doesn't show up again, which again leads me to saying that is my biggest issue with the prequels.

Consequently in the show, as I was saying earlier, those lightsaber fights had way more emotional weight behind them as well. Granted it's more difficult to develop that level of characterization in a 2 hour movie than a couple months with a tv show, but it'd still be better than what we ended up getting.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Seeing how the fighting styles is probably lost forever after the Jedi purge, I'm ok with the current sighting styles they are using.

Yes I know there are probably tome/ datalores of the lightsaber forms somewhere hidden in the galaxy and unless Snoke, Kylo or Luke had found them, I'm not expecting them to be flipping and waving their lightsaber like the prequel any time soon.

 

[MrFalconfly]

Personally I prefer the "kendo" style of the original trilogy.

Sure the prequels looked flashy and stylish, but utility has a coolness of its own.

 

[RealRT]

Maul not showing up again is my biggest grievance with the prequels.

Did you watch Clone Wars?

Did you read my comment?

(a movie should stand on it's own, so you can't pull from anything outside of the movie series to add weight to something in the movie)

Why so much enmity? I was just going to point out that you can get your Maul fix there. I wasn't implying that the Clone Wars somehow makes prequels better - it doesn't, they stand separately from each other.

 

[Casual Shinji]

What's important in any fictional fight (that has a serious tone) is that it feels tense and dangerous, that the stakes are palpable. The Force Awakens pulled this off very well. Whether it was Finn vs. Stormtrooper, Finn vs. Ren, or Rey vs. Ren, there was a sense that the good guy could actually lose (eventhough we know they won't really), and that they had to strain themselves in order to triumph. It also helped that the lightsabers felt hefty and powerful.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Probably the silliest question I've heard about episode 7 - It has, by far, the best lightsaber action in any of the films. They're swung with obviously deadly intentions, defensive maneuvers are engaged that are actually sane, instead of just queuing the cable sling shot and floating through the air like a bird, and they feel like a fight is going on. The original trilogies sword fights weren't terrible, but they could be a little boring, and the prequels looked more like a bunch of teenagers at a rave then mystical warriors fighting on battlefields.

Though to quickly answer your question, yes, I have, and The Clone Wars did what the prequel movies should have done. Part of the reason the Maul story arc was so well received was because these characters were able to actually capitalize on an interaction they had in the past, making it both personal for the characters as well as making the audience more emotionally invested in it. The fact remains that in the movies he doesn't show up again, which again leads me to saying that is my biggest issue with the prequels.

Consequently in the show, as I was saying earlier, those lightsaber fights had way more emotional weight behind them as well. Granted it's more difficult to develop that level of characterization in a 2 hour movie than a couple months with a tv show, but it'd still be better than what we ended up getting.

The shows are pretty much my favorite thing about Star Wars, for a variety of reasons, but on the lightsaber front they did a pretty damn good job. They aren't as heavy as Episode 7, but they actually pulled off the acrobatic focused combat that the prequels were trying without it looking stupid (It being 100% computer driven may have something to do with that), and the fights seemed more meaningful. My two favorite lightsaber fights are from the shows, the first being Maul+Savage vs Sidious, where we get to see a true Sith Lord actually let loose (And its glorious, complete with lightning, a curb stomp victory that showed he was just playing around the whole time, and an outragious amount of evil cackling) and the second being the Season 1 Rebels finale, which actually raised the hairs on my neck.

Spoiler: Rebels Season 1 Finale Spoilers

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Episode VII has, by order of magnitude, the best lightsaber battle in the series. The only real contender is Episode VI's duel, where Luke lets himself touch the Dark Side and is passionately hammering away at Vader like a blacksmith working at the anvil. There's three films worth of pent up narrative exploding in that fight, and it's impossible to discount it. But Episode VII...oh my.

The snow, the slowly dying light, the bright primary colors in the darkness. Kylo Ren's haggard, stooped over and violent slashing...a fundamentally erratic and unstable character becoming more so after the murder of his father. Rey struggling to come to terms with her awakening power/memory, first using the saber like her more comfortable staff. The weight of the sabers, the crackling, the sparks and snow flakes flying around in 3D. The implicit familial relationship between the participants unspoken but heavily foreshadowed, culminating in Kylo Ren attempting to turn Rey in his moment of victory rather than dispatching her. Even his swift defeat of Finn had plenty to love...Finn's desperate resolution despite being hopelessly outmatched, Kylo Ren pounding his wound to wind up his anger and pain. Absolutely spectacular, and easily the best sequence in the film.

Comparatively, the prequel fights were a sorry joke. They were a joke all on their own (for reasons already amply covered in this thread), but Episode VII's fight helped spotlight just how bad they were. Weightless, zero-emotion, over-choreographed prancing. In a few of the fights it was an actor waving a stick around at literally nothing, with their opponent added in later via post-processing. Hey Ewan, stare at this tennis ball and pretend it's Grievous walking towards you swinging a hundred lightsabers. No one knows what to do or how to react. It looks fucking terrible. It's pretty common for people to be openly scornful of the prequels (with good reason), but there is a bone occasionally thrown to them that "at least the lightsaber fights were cool". They'll point to Obi-Wan and Vader stiffly exchanging blows in A New Hope and then to the airy twirling in Phantom Menace and say "See how much more exciting?". Except Obi-Wan and Vader's "duel" was never about the sabers, Obi-Wan had no interest in fighting Vader and his sacrifice was both an important narrative beat and an essential thematic beat for the series as a whole. When the inscrutable Qui-Gon Jinn dies and McGregor gets an opportunity to emote at something that isn't a tennis ball or a mark on a wall for a change, what happens? More weightless, passionless choreography. Spin and slash at the air. Prance and slash at the floor. Even the choreography, while overwhelmingly PRESENT, is terrible. Maul, please stand gormlessly while your opponent gradually flips over your head, pulls their saber into their hand, and disembowels you. Maybe slash pointlessly at the floor a bit in the interim.

Do you recall Anakin in Episode I? The "Let's try spinning, that's a neat trick" line? That pretty much sums up the battles. "Let's try spinning, that's a neat trick". Calamitously bad. Offal.

 

[The Enquirer]

Maul not showing up again is my biggest grievance with the prequels.

Did you watch Clone Wars?

Did you read my comment?

(a movie should stand on it's own, so you can't pull from anything outside of the movie series to add weight to something in the movie)

Why so much enmity? I was just going to point out that you can get your Maul fix there. I wasn't implying that the Clone Wars somehow makes prequels better - it doesn't, they stand separately from each other.

Sorry, didn't mean to come off that way, just I was strictly speaking about the movies, no outside material when I was referring to the prequels.

 

[Mahorfeus]

It was certainly the most "real" fight of the saga, but it was far from my favorite. I do agree that it managed to make the lightsabers feel more dangerous than any other fight, and the setting was just plain gorgeous.

Still, I'm one of those people that thought the prequels' lightsaber fights were one of their few saving graces. They were exciting to watch, for the most part, and it never particularly bothered me that they were as choreographed as they were.

Out of genuine curiosity, I have to ask: when people say that the lightsabers have no 'weight', are they being literal? I mean, technically they shouldn't have weight, right? Until the moment the blade meets another saber or certain objects, there shouldn't be any resistance whatsoever, so I am a bit confused by what people mean when they say certain fights seemed weightless, or when they complain that characters can whirl them around as quickly as they do.

 

[Darkmantle]

It was certainly the most "real" fight of the saga, but it was far from my favorite. I do agree that it managed to make the lightsabers feel more dangerous than any other fight, and the setting was just plain gorgeous.

Still, I'm one of those people that thought the prequels' lightsaber fights were one of their few saving graces. They were exciting to watch, for the most part, and it never particularly bothered me that they were as choreographed as they were.

Out of genuine curiosity, I have to ask: when people say that the lightsabers have no 'weight', are they being literal? I mean, technically they shouldn't have weight, right? Until the moment the blade meets another saber or certain objects, there shouldn't be any resistance whatsoever, so I am a bit confused by what people mean when they say certain fights seemed weightless, or when they complain that characters can whirl them around as quickly as they do.

Vid linked earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0mUVY9fLlw&ab_channel=FirstManOnTheSpoon

The point is, that for a lot if not all of the attacks, the opponent could have just stood still empty handed and not got hit.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Out of genuine curiosity, I have to ask: when people say that the lightsabers have no 'weight', are they being literal? I mean, technically they shouldn't have weight, right? Until the moment the blade meets another saber or certain objects, there shouldn't be any resistance whatsoever, so I am a bit confused by what people mean when they say certain fights seemed weightless, or when they complain that characters can whirl them around as quickly as they do.

Weight, in this sense, usually means presence. Think less pounds, and more Marty McFly's favorite phrase, 'this is heavy.' The Episode 7 lightsabers feel heavy because they feel like their actually doing something - The characters and the environment respond to them like their actually there. As opposed to the prequels, where they feel exactly like what they are - A digitally added light show that was in no way actually present during the filming of the movie.

At least, that's what I mean by heavy.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Weight, in this sense, usually means presence. Think less pounds, and more Marty McFly's favorite phrase, 'this is heavy.' The Episode 7 lightsabers feel heavy because they feel like their actually doing something - The characters and the environment respond to them like their actually there. As opposed to the prequels, where they feel exactly like what they are - A digitally added light show that was in no way actually present during the filming of the movie.

At least, that's what I mean by heavy.

Thank you, AccursedTheory, this is what I was popping in to say myself. I'm really digging your posts today. Have some Escapist Gold.