Poll: Star Wars VII's lightsaber combat changes, yay or nay? (Spoilers)

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chaser5000

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MarsAtlas said:
I loved it. They did a much better of capturing why the lightsaber duels in the original trilogy were so good. Its not the choreography, its the emotion. The one in A New Hope hardly qualifies as a duel at all. They're not really fighting with swords as they are fighting with words and faith. In Empire Strikes Back Luke is clearly outmatched in both dueling skill and mastery of the Force. He simply can't keep up and Vader is mocking him the entire time silently by not taking a lunge to defeat him when he has the chance. He even starts using the Force to throw objects at him, teasing him maliciously. Its great because it makes Luke feel powerless, which is important because Vader wants him to be lured to the Dark Side. In Return of the Jedi, it isn't choreography that wins the day, it is pure rage. Luke lets go of all of his restrain and just anhillates Vader.

That said they split the difference, leaning far more heavily over to the original trilogy. Is there more action? Yes. But its action with emotional heft. They get bruised and cut and stabbed. They feel pain during the fight and lash out at their opponent by punching and kicking them. The fight in TFA wasn't a pure emotional gauntlet with no real fight like in the original trilogy and it was flashy dancing like the prequels but a middle ground between the two that is much dirtier for it. They felt a lot like the lightsaber duels you had with others when you were a kid.

Renegade-pizza said:
PS. That's what the crossguards on Kylo's lightsaber were for.
YES! So glad you made a point about it. I thought it was stupid as fuck in terms of strategy but it fits perfectly when you treat it not as a defense, not even as an offense really, but as a way for him to be sadistic to those he is fighting in battle.
Basically my thoughts about the light saber fights in the OT and Prequels. The way the fights were more than just fights but helped to reveal things about the characters.

The cross guards on Ren's saber are because the crystal in it is cracked most likely caused when he destroyed the new jedi order, which is why his blade looks less stable and the cross guard are vents for excess energy, which is a pretty clever metaphor for Ren himself. Also which is probably a reason he wants Luke's old saber since it's undamaged.

I still don't believe Rey beating him makes any sense. Yes, he was injured but not to bad to prevent him catching up to Rey and Fin in the first place. Yes, Ren is clearly no master swordsman, but that was literally the first time Rey had used a lightsaber, Fin had more experience then her.
 

K12

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Mixed feelings. The slower fights felt more like they were actually trying to attack each other rather than dancing about for the sake of it. I think that Jedi would be very deliberate in their movements, they aren't the kind of people who would be showing off and doing backflips for the sake of it.

The prequels fights use lots of busy movement to create the illusion of jeopardy and aggression rather than having genuinely well thought out action that works with the characters and advances the plot, it's basically like using the shakey-cam trick. I loved the Darth Maul fight when I firsted watched it at aged 10 but it's boring and silly to me now.

The Obi-Wan/Darth Vader fight from Star Wars does kind of look crap if you're only watching it casually however the good acting throughout the film make it easy for me to believe that a lot of the fight is going on in their heads (i.e. trying to intuit each other movements and only swinging when it's necessary)

There's definitely a happy middle to be found that shows off the jedi's skills without making it look like that's all that you're doing.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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There is merit to both views here I find; the fights in the Original Trilogy had a certain dramatic weight to them, though it probably helped that there are all of I think three actual lightsaber duels in the OT and all are intrinsic to the plot:

Obi-Wan vs. Darth Vader: the master against the fallen student

Darth Vader vs. Luke Skywalker: hero against the villain

Darth Vader vs. Luke Skywalker mkII: father against son


However since the Prequel Trilogy takes place when the Jedi were arguably at the height of their presence in the galaxy and the Sith were a reasonable up front threat then there are obviously more of them so the dramatic tension is lost in all but a few of the important ones - and even that will be hotly debated. So as there are more Jedi, there are more lightsaber fights so the prevailing logic was probably that if they're gonna make this a regular thing, it may as well be fun and interesting to watch. Again mileage will vary and I got more of mine out of The Clone Wars.

Actually there's a point: are Kylo or Rey going to get up to some of the truly extravagant shenanigans enjoyed by their animated forebears?
 

RealRT

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Zontar said:
RealRT said:
When you think about it, Darth Vader actually kinda sucks at lightsaber combat.
It may be clumsy, but at least it looks like a fight that could actually happen instead of the impossibly choreographed "aim for everything EXCEPT your opponent" fights from the prequels. I mean hell, the entire argument is always reliant on comparing the best prequel fight scene (Phantom Menace) with the worst original one (New Hope). Yet when one looks at the other two, the prequels don't have a snowball's chance in hell of holding up.



It's an argument of style over substance vs style with substance.

And spoiler alert, unless you are whacked in the head, those aren't really interesting to watch.
On the contrary, one who is whacked on the head would be much more likely to take the fights that are purely stylistic but without substance over the ones that are both stylistic and substance filled.
We're discussing two superpowered space knights with swords, blades of which are made out of pure energy, having a duel. The "look like it could actually happen" argument can go straight to hell.
Anakin vs Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith blows those two out of the water (and the Phantom Menace fight, for that matter). No, it's not an argument of style over substance vs style with substance. It's an argument of style over substance vs substance without style. Yeah, the Empire duel is probably the best one of the originals (I don't like the ROTJ duel, Vader looks like he just threw the fight), but it's still nothing to write home about in terms of visuals. People like them not because they are that awesome as swordfights, people like them because it's Luke and Vader. Which is a valid reason, but has nothing to do with how the fight choreography is done.
Star Wars is not some great gritty realistic sci-fi masterpiece. It's pure escapist fantasy, a fairy tale. And as such, it's allowed style over substance as long as it ends up in a great visual spectacle. And the duels from the prequels are just that, a great visual spectacle that can be appreciated for complex choreography and stunt work. Any Joe Schmoe can just pick up a stick and swing it and look totally realistic doing that, but, remind me, why the hell should I pay to watch that?
And spoiler alert, unless you are whacked in the head, those aren't really interesting to watch.
On the contrary, one who is whacked on the head would be much more likely to take the fights that are purely stylistic but without substance over the ones that are both stylistic and substance filled.
As for "whacked in the head", I meant only somebody whacked in the head would want to see an old guy fight an amputee. That's squicky. But since you went there, you gotta be whacked in the head to want to see a fight that has nothing worth watching in it.
 

The Enquirer

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RealRT said:
The Enquirer said:
Maul not showing up again is my biggest grievance with the prequels.
Did you watch Clone Wars?
Did you read my comment? :p
The Enquirer said:
(a movie should stand on it's own, so you can't pull from anything outside of the movie series to add weight to something in the movie)
With one of the key words you quoted being prequels, I thought we were both under the impression I was strictly talking about the movies. Though to quickly answer your question, yes, I have, and The Clone Wars did what the prequel movies should have done. Part of the reason the Maul story arc was so well received was because these characters were able to actually capitalize on an interaction they had in the past, making it both personal for the characters as well as making the audience more emotionally invested in it. The fact remains that in the movies he doesn't show up again, which again leads me to saying that is my biggest issue with the prequels.

Consequently in the show, as I was saying earlier, those lightsaber fights had way more emotional weight behind them as well. Granted it's more difficult to develop that level of characterization in a 2 hour movie than a couple months with a tv show, but it'd still be better than what we ended up getting.
 

Scarim Coral

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Seeing how the fighting styles is probably lost forever after the Jedi purge, I'm ok with the current sighting styles they are using.

Yes I know there are probably tome/ datalores of the lightsaber forms somewhere hidden in the galaxy and unless Snoke, Kylo or Luke had found them, I'm not expecting them to be flipping and waving their lightsaber like the prequel any time soon.
 

MrFalconfly

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Personally I prefer the "kendo" style of the original trilogy.

Sure the prequels looked flashy and stylish, but utility has a coolness of its own.
 

RealRT

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The Enquirer said:
RealRT said:
The Enquirer said:
Maul not showing up again is my biggest grievance with the prequels.
Did you watch Clone Wars?
Did you read my comment? :p
The Enquirer said:
(a movie should stand on it's own, so you can't pull from anything outside of the movie series to add weight to something in the movie)
Why so much enmity? I was just going to point out that you can get your Maul fix there. I wasn't implying that the Clone Wars somehow makes prequels better - it doesn't, they stand separately from each other.
 

Casual Shinji

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What's important in any fictional fight (that has a serious tone) is that it feels tense and dangerous, that the stakes are palpable. The Force Awakens pulled this off very well. Whether it was Finn vs. Stormtrooper, Finn vs. Ren, or Rey vs. Ren, there was a sense that the good guy could actually lose (eventhough we know they won't really), and that they had to strain themselves in order to triumph. It also helped that the lightsabers felt hefty and powerful.
 

DefunctTheory

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Probably the silliest question I've heard about episode 7 - It has, by far, the best lightsaber action in any of the films. They're swung with obviously deadly intentions, defensive maneuvers are engaged that are actually sane, instead of just queuing the cable sling shot and floating through the air like a bird, and they feel like a fight is going on. The original trilogies sword fights weren't terrible, but they could be a little boring, and the prequels looked more like a bunch of teenagers at a rave then mystical warriors fighting on battlefields.

The Enquirer said:
Though to quickly answer your question, yes, I have, and The Clone Wars did what the prequel movies should have done. Part of the reason the Maul story arc was so well received was because these characters were able to actually capitalize on an interaction they had in the past, making it both personal for the characters as well as making the audience more emotionally invested in it. The fact remains that in the movies he doesn't show up again, which again leads me to saying that is my biggest issue with the prequels.

Consequently in the show, as I was saying earlier, those lightsaber fights had way more emotional weight behind them as well. Granted it's more difficult to develop that level of characterization in a 2 hour movie than a couple months with a tv show, but it'd still be better than what we ended up getting.
The shows are pretty much my favorite thing about Star Wars, for a variety of reasons, but on the lightsaber front they did a pretty damn good job. They aren't as heavy as Episode 7, but they actually pulled off the acrobatic focused combat that the prequels were trying without it looking stupid (It being 100% computer driven may have something to do with that), and the fights seemed more meaningful. My two favorite lightsaber fights are from the shows, the first being Maul+Savage vs Sidious, where we get to see a true Sith Lord actually let loose (And its glorious, complete with lightning, a curb stomp victory that showed he was just playing around the whole time, and an outragious amount of evil cackling) and the second being the Season 1 Rebels finale, which actually raised the hairs on my neck.

 

BloatedGuppy

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Episode VII has, by order of magnitude, the best lightsaber battle in the series. The only real contender is Episode VI's duel, where Luke lets himself touch the Dark Side and is passionately hammering away at Vader like a blacksmith working at the anvil. There's three films worth of pent up narrative exploding in that fight, and it's impossible to discount it. But Episode VII...oh my.

The snow, the slowly dying light, the bright primary colors in the darkness. Kylo Ren's haggard, stooped over and violent slashing...a fundamentally erratic and unstable character becoming more so after the murder of his father. Rey struggling to come to terms with her awakening power/memory, first using the saber like her more comfortable staff. The weight of the sabers, the crackling, the sparks and snow flakes flying around in 3D. The implicit familial relationship between the participants unspoken but heavily foreshadowed, culminating in Kylo Ren attempting to turn Rey in his moment of victory rather than dispatching her. Even his swift defeat of Finn had plenty to love...Finn's desperate resolution despite being hopelessly outmatched, Kylo Ren pounding his wound to wind up his anger and pain. Absolutely spectacular, and easily the best sequence in the film.

Comparatively, the prequel fights were a sorry joke. They were a joke all on their own (for reasons already amply covered in this thread), but Episode VII's fight helped spotlight just how bad they were. Weightless, zero-emotion, over-choreographed prancing. In a few of the fights it was an actor waving a stick around at literally nothing, with their opponent added in later via post-processing. Hey Ewan, stare at this tennis ball and pretend it's Grievous walking towards you swinging a hundred lightsabers. No one knows what to do or how to react. It looks fucking terrible. It's pretty common for people to be openly scornful of the prequels (with good reason), but there is a bone occasionally thrown to them that "at least the lightsaber fights were cool". They'll point to Obi-Wan and Vader stiffly exchanging blows in A New Hope and then to the airy twirling in Phantom Menace and say "See how much more exciting?". Except Obi-Wan and Vader's "duel" was never about the sabers, Obi-Wan had no interest in fighting Vader and his sacrifice was both an important narrative beat and an essential thematic beat for the series as a whole. When the inscrutable Qui-Gon Jinn dies and McGregor gets an opportunity to emote at something that isn't a tennis ball or a mark on a wall for a change, what happens? More weightless, passionless choreography. Spin and slash at the air. Prance and slash at the floor. Even the choreography, while overwhelmingly PRESENT, is terrible. Maul, please stand gormlessly while your opponent gradually flips over your head, pulls their saber into their hand, and disembowels you. Maybe slash pointlessly at the floor a bit in the interim.

Do you recall Anakin in Episode I? The "Let's try spinning, that's a neat trick" line? That pretty much sums up the battles. "Let's try spinning, that's a neat trick". Calamitously bad. Offal.
 

The Enquirer

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RealRT said:
The Enquirer said:
RealRT said:
The Enquirer said:
Maul not showing up again is my biggest grievance with the prequels.
Did you watch Clone Wars?
Did you read my comment? :p
The Enquirer said:
(a movie should stand on it's own, so you can't pull from anything outside of the movie series to add weight to something in the movie)
Why so much enmity? I was just going to point out that you can get your Maul fix there. I wasn't implying that the Clone Wars somehow makes prequels better - it doesn't, they stand separately from each other.
Sorry, didn't mean to come off that way, just I was strictly speaking about the movies, no outside material when I was referring to the prequels.
 

Mahorfeus

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It was certainly the most "real" fight of the saga, but it was far from my favorite. I do agree that it managed to make the lightsabers feel more dangerous than any other fight, and the setting was just plain gorgeous.

Still, I'm one of those people that thought the prequels' lightsaber fights were one of their few saving graces. They were exciting to watch, for the most part, and it never particularly bothered me that they were as choreographed as they were.

Out of genuine curiosity, I have to ask: when people say that the lightsabers have no 'weight', are they being literal? I mean, technically they shouldn't have weight, right? Until the moment the blade meets another saber or certain objects, there shouldn't be any resistance whatsoever, so I am a bit confused by what people mean when they say certain fights seemed weightless, or when they complain that characters can whirl them around as quickly as they do.
 

Darkmantle

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Mahorfeus said:
It was certainly the most "real" fight of the saga, but it was far from my favorite. I do agree that it managed to make the lightsabers feel more dangerous than any other fight, and the setting was just plain gorgeous.

Still, I'm one of those people that thought the prequels' lightsaber fights were one of their few saving graces. They were exciting to watch, for the most part, and it never particularly bothered me that they were as choreographed as they were.

Out of genuine curiosity, I have to ask: when people say that the lightsabers have no 'weight', are they being literal? I mean, technically they shouldn't have weight, right? Until the moment the blade meets another saber or certain objects, there shouldn't be any resistance whatsoever, so I am a bit confused by what people mean when they say certain fights seemed weightless, or when they complain that characters can whirl them around as quickly as they do.
Vid linked earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0mUVY9fLlw&ab_channel=FirstManOnTheSpoon

The point is, that for a lot if not all of the attacks, the opponent could have just stood still empty handed and not got hit.
 

DefunctTheory

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Mahorfeus said:
Out of genuine curiosity, I have to ask: when people say that the lightsabers have no 'weight', are they being literal? I mean, technically they shouldn't have weight, right? Until the moment the blade meets another saber or certain objects, there shouldn't be any resistance whatsoever, so I am a bit confused by what people mean when they say certain fights seemed weightless, or when they complain that characters can whirl them around as quickly as they do.
Weight, in this sense, usually means presence. Think less pounds, and more Marty McFly's favorite phrase, 'this is heavy.' The Episode 7 lightsabers feel heavy because they feel like their actually doing something - The characters and the environment respond to them like their actually there. As opposed to the prequels, where they feel exactly like what they are - A digitally added light show that was in no way actually present during the filming of the movie.

At least, that's what I mean by heavy.
 

BloatedGuppy

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AccursedTheory said:
Weight, in this sense, usually means presence. Think less pounds, and more Marty McFly's favorite phrase, 'this is heavy.' The Episode 7 lightsabers feel heavy because they feel like their actually doing something - The characters and the environment respond to them like their actually there. As opposed to the prequels, where they feel exactly like what they are - A digitally added light show that was in no way actually present during the filming of the movie.

At least, that's what I mean by heavy.
Thank you, AccursedTheory, this is what I was popping in to say myself. I'm really digging your posts today. Have some Escapist Gold.

 

ThatOtherGirl

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The new lightsaber duel was fantastic. Exactly what it should have been.

As for the other discussions going on, I always find it really funny when people count Obi-wan vs Darth Vader as a real lightsaber duel. It wasn't actually a fight, we know this. Them even having the weapons out is a mere formality and both characters know it. There is no way Obi-wan walks away from the fight. Yeah, it wasn't great fight choreography, but that is not the point of the scene. They knew they couldn't make a good fight scene so they chose to instead make a good character scene. Frankly, the scene carries more weight than even the best lightsaber duel of the prequels. And then the actually good fights of episode 5 and 6 are great.

As for the few comments about Rey winning being dumb, makes perfect sense to me. Ren was literally shot in the gut by a weapon with the power of a grenade launcher. It had roughly the same effect as if someone had strapped a high explosive grenade to his side and set it off. It is only because of his powers that he wasn't blown to pieces on the spot. They went to great lengths to establish how powerful that bow caster was earlier in the movie for this exactly purpose. It literally sends men flying with the force of it's explosion, and they didn't even take a direct hit like Ren did.

Then he chases people for a few miles as he is literally bleeding out. That is his recklessness and foolishness again coming through. And then proceeds to get into a protracted sword fight. His entire force advantage was being used just to keep himself conscious and alive, which is why he never used his powers in a more direct manner to simply paralyze his opponent as we see him do several times though the movie.

I can easily buy that Finn and Rey together could defeat him in those circumstances. She didn't actually have to win the fight, all she had to do was survive until Ren died. His wound caused him to become ever weaker as he is literally dying as he fights (which is exactly what allows Rey to win.) Rey didn't win because she was powerful, Ren lost because of his own reckless stupidity.
 

Ishigami

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[x] Not sure yet.

The fight choreography of the original trilogy was quite frankly horrible.
The fights kind of worked back then because they were basically just a visual representation of the conflict between the characters fighting.

I feel that this was lost during the prequels. Those fights were good too watch once but like anything in the prequels they didn't age well as they lacked substance and are painfully over-choreographed.
Which led to its own set of problems e.g. Darth Maul being killed by the slowest most foreseeable move in Star Wars history.

So yea I'm all good for a middle ground here. I'm just not sure yet if the new movies arrive there.
We haven't seen much and what we have seen is plagued by typical awful Hollywood action scene cutting.
Problem being that the actors probably can't sword fight for shit and obviously the director and camera men (or whoever is charge of cutting and framing too) are from Hollywood...

If you want to know what is wrong with that I recommend this little video:
Its about comedy but goes into framing and cutting for action scenes as well.

Anyway:
Lightsaber hits more like cuts of an actual blade? I'm okay with that.
Slower fights that are not over-choreographed? I'm okay with that.

So yea go ahead with that just fix your cutting...
 

Pinkamena

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"better swordmanship"


No. The saber fights in the prequels were glorified dancing and fancy jumps. It looked fake as fuck and had absolutely none of the gravitas of the original trilogy.