Poll: Teen Shot dead after attempting to mug man

[Danpascooch]

Commission of forcible felony? WTF does that mean? Can I now shoot dead someone who forces me to give them money but does not threaten me physically?

Probably. Threat of violence should be treated the same as violence.

The way that's worded, it sounds like if some guy walks up to me and says "GIVE ME YOUR MONEY!" without making a move to attack me, and without presenting a weapon, I am allowed to shoot him 8 times with hollow point rounds.

 

[DEAD34345]

When you are mugging someone you give up your rights, as far as I'm concerned. Sure it would have been better had the mugger not died, but the muggers life is of very low concern to me once they decided to attack someone. If someone attacked me or someone else and i had a gun on hand, i would shoot until i was absolutely certain they couldn't cause anymore harm, and only then would i begin to think about their welfare.

 

[Random berk]

I have a hunting rifle that (before the scope was damaged) I could shoot a dime off of a fencepost at twenty yards. Many people can claim similar stories. Hoverer, a handgun is relatively useless unless the target is at close range. Even with a laser sight most handguns are only fairly accurate at anything close to ten yards, unless you are well trained. So it would have been a necessity for multiple shots to be fired.

He was close enough for the mugger to have punched him in the face. Surely at that range, even with a bloodied face and a ringing head, 8 shots was quite excessive? If he was as knowledgeable and skilled with a gun as all Americans seem to be, surely two shots, maybe three, would have been enough to hit his target.


Also, aren't hollow points illegal for civilian use, even in America?

 

[mirasiel]

Unless he was expecting to be mugged by a SWAT team, he had no business carrying around that kind of weapon for self defense while JOGGING.

The eight shots was just the final nail in the coffin.

I become tired of explaining things that you can find out with about 30 seconds of googling or wiki-ing.

also SWAT wear body armor, so no, he wasn;t expecting them..if he were he'd have armor piercing rounds.

Instead he used the probably perfect round for a handgun meant for selfdefence...something with stopping power and low penetration.

what weapon do YOU think is acceptable for carrying for defence whilst jogging?

Im just going to start linking to this poor mad bastards thread now:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.257862-Things-You-Might-Incorrectly-Believe-About-Guns

 

[Danpascooch]

The guy had a pistol with a laser sight and HOLLOW POINT ROUNDS designed specifically to cause maximum harm to unarmored targets.

Unless he was expecting to be mugged by a SWAT team, he had no business carrying around that kind of weapon for self defense while JOGGING.

The eight shots was just the final nail in the coffin.

Hollow points are also designed for minimal penetration, meaning that the bullet will stop moving once it hits flesh. They have more purposes than causing greater injury.

He obviously needed the weapon, so I don't see what you're complaining about.

And, as it's been said before, 8 shots is normal and expected.

You realize that penetrating minimally IS maximum harm right? You WANT the bullet to exit your body.

Secondly, eight shots is not normal, expected, or alright. If this guy needed a gun, he should have properly prepared himself for what to do in a crisis, he should have received training on how to defend yourself without turning a guy into swiss cheese with special anti-infantry rounds.

You might say "well, he panicked, it was a mistake" well, it was a mistake that cost a human life, I am all for having a gun for self defense, but if you don't receive the training you need to responsibly use it, you SHOULD be held accountable for killing someone.

Before you say "how could he have done this any differently!?" I would say he should have shot at a limb if possible, if NOT possible, he should have fired one, MAYBE two shots. Eight shots mean he was not prepared for the responsibility of gun ownership.

 

[macfluffers]

Muggers usually ask for money or something before they attack, it doesn't make a lot of sense, I'm not sure I buy the story.

You're right that the mugger didn't follow the normal methods, but the mugger's friend corroborates Baker's story. I think that it was the mugger's first time robbing someone, and he didn't really know what he was doing. He just assumed that Baker would go down without a fight.

The way that's worded, it sounds like if some guy walks up to me and says "GIVE ME YOUR MONEY!" without making a move to attack me, and without presenting a weapon, I am allowed to shoot him 8 times with hollow point rounds.

Sounds about right. I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[Seneschal]

snip

Put it this way: If it was you who was assaulted on the street, are you going to give half a shit about the welfare your assailants? Would you have any sympathy if they dropped dead?

I'm hardly objective in that scenario, am I? It's the reason I think Baker is off the hook, he did what he was forced to, with the best tools that he had at his disposal. But he made a quick judgement, not the best one, and he definitely didn't see the social repercussions of what he was about to do (and I'm not suggesting that he should have).

That said, I wouldn't be armed, and I would get knocked unconscious and robbed. I doubt I would my life would be in danger because guns aren't available where I live. In any case, either this, me running for my life, or muggers running for theirs when I pull my gun, are all more preferrable scenarios than me shooting people without warning in a dazed state.

But the stupid kids did narrow Baker's options, as punching someone is probably the worst mugging idea ever.

 

[Ganthrinor]

Fuckin' A. When you try to mug somebody, getting shot is an occupational hazard. End of story.

 

[Danpascooch]

Unless he was expecting to be mugged by a SWAT team, he had no business carrying around that kind of weapon for self defense while JOGGING.

The eight shots was just the final nail in the coffin.

I become tired of explaining things that you can find out with about 30 seconds of googling or wiki-ing.

also SWAT wear body armor, so no, he wasn;t expecting them..if he were he'd have armor piercing rounds.

Instead he used the probably perfect round for a handgun meant for selfdefence...something with stopping power and low penetration.

what weapon do YOU think is acceptable for carrying for defence whilst jogging?

I think it would have been acceptable if he had ditched the laser sight (why the FUCK do you need a laser sight for self defense while jogging?) and used normal rounds, and fired a maximum of two shots at the mugger.

Anyone who fires 8 times has not properly prepared themselves for gun ownership, a gun is a fucking deadly weapon, if you're going to own one, you need to know how to defend yourself without turning someone into swiss cheese by shooting over half a dozen times.

 

[Danpascooch]

Muggers usually ask for money or something before they attack, it doesn't make a lot of sense, I'm not sure I buy the story.

You're right that the mugger didn't follow the normal methods, but the mugger's friend corroborates Baker's story. I think that it was the mugger's first time robbing someone, and he didn't really know what he was doing. He just assumed that Baker would go down without a fight.

The way that's worded, it sounds like if some guy walks up to me and says "GIVE ME YOUR MONEY!" without making a move to attack me, and without presenting a weapon, I am allowed to shoot him 8 times with hollow point rounds.

Sounds about right. I wouldn't have it any other way.

You think it's alright to kill a man who does not immediately threaten you physically, and only verbally tells you to give him your money?

You're insane, and you should be careful, because if Baker's case isn't clear cut, that situation would certainly be murder.

 

[Danpascooch]

Fuckin' A. When you try to mug somebody, getting shot is an occupational hazard. End of story.

Maybe getting shot is, but getting shot 8 times with hollow point rounds shouldn't be.

Yeah, muggers are assholes who deserve to go to jail, but they don't deserve to be ripped apart by a hail of bullets.

 

[Kalahee]

Was in his right, only concern like some might have note before me is that 4 bullets might have not been justifiable. On the other end, this kind of "Stand your Ground" is a double edge blade, could keep eventual muggers at bay, but some may plead self-defense after shooting down someone who had not attacked them and if there was no witness, there's no way to tell than his story. In this case, there was the other kid who admitted the young men wanted to beat the man. If the man felt is life in danger, pulled out the weapon to intimidate the mugger away... then the other person feels his life in danger and take arm too...? Back to Westerns?

We had some story about a young ethnic man shot by a policeman because they were behaving aggressively toward them. Some sound made one of the police officer beleive it was a gunshot and shot. This has been followed by lawsuit for ethnic profiling and riots.

 

[mirasiel]

Unless he was expecting to be mugged by a SWAT team, he had no business carrying around that kind of weapon for self defense while JOGGING.

The eight shots was just the final nail in the coffin.

I become tired of explaining things that you can find out with about 30 seconds of googling or wiki-ing.

also SWAT wear body armor, so no, he wasn;t expecting them..if he were he'd have armor piercing rounds.

Instead he used the probably perfect round for a handgun meant for selfdefence...something with stopping power and low penetration.

what weapon do YOU think is acceptable for carrying for defence whilst jogging?

I think it would have been acceptable if he had ditched the laser sight (why the FUCK do you need a laser sight for self defense while jogging?) and used normal rounds, and fired a maximum of two shots at the mugger.

Anyone who fires 8 times has not properly prepared themselves for gun ownership, a gun is a fucking deadly weapon, if you're going to own one, you need to know how to defend yourself without turning someone into swiss cheese by shooting over half a dozen times.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.257862-Things-You-Might-Incorrectly-Believe-About-Guns


So you dont like the fact the man apparently has some concern about where HIS HIGH SPEED PIECES OF METAL GO?? and you want to hold that against him.

his hit rate was %50 (given circumstances im not shocked) so by your allowance he would have hit the criminal with 1 round which as many, many people have pointed out is not enough to be sure that the aggressor is disabled (down or dead, doesnt matter).


http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.257862-Things-You-Might-Incorrectly-Believe-About-Guns

 

[Danpascooch]

Unless he was expecting to be mugged by a SWAT team, he had no business carrying around that kind of weapon for self defense while JOGGING.

The eight shots was just the final nail in the coffin.

I become tired of explaining things that you can find out with about 30 seconds of googling or wiki-ing.

also SWAT wear body armor, so no, he wasn;t expecting them..if he were he'd have armor piercing rounds.

Instead he used the probably perfect round for a handgun meant for selfdefence...something with stopping power and low penetration.

what weapon do YOU think is acceptable for carrying for defence whilst jogging?

Im just going to start linking to this poor mad bastards thread now:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.257862-Things-You-Might-Incorrectly-Believe-About-Guns

BTW, I am aware that SWAT teams carry armor and hollow points would be ineffective, I thought it wouldn't matter since that is hardly the point.

My point was obviously and clearly that he had a weapon thats power was not proportional to the intent. Which was basic self defense from common thugs.

 

[Danpascooch]

Unless he was expecting to be mugged by a SWAT team, he had no business carrying around that kind of weapon for self defense while JOGGING.

The eight shots was just the final nail in the coffin.

I become tired of explaining things that you can find out with about 30 seconds of googling or wiki-ing.

also SWAT wear body armor, so no, he wasn;t expecting them..if he were he'd have armor piercing rounds.

Instead he used the probably perfect round for a handgun meant for selfdefence...something with stopping power and low penetration.

what weapon do YOU think is acceptable for carrying for defence whilst jogging?

I think it would have been acceptable if he had ditched the laser sight (why the FUCK do you need a laser sight for self defense while jogging?) and used normal rounds, and fired a maximum of two shots at the mugger.

Anyone who fires 8 times has not properly prepared themselves for gun ownership, a gun is a fucking deadly weapon, if you're going to own one, you need to know how to defend yourself without turning someone into swiss cheese by shooting over half a dozen times.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.257862-Things-You-Might-Incorrectly-Believe-About-Guns


So you dont like the fact the man apparently has some concern about where HIS HIGH SPEED PIECES OF METAL GO?? and you want to hold that against him.

his hit rate was %50 (given circumstances im not shocked) so by your allowance he would have hit the criminal with 1 round which as many, many people have pointed out is not enough to be sure that the aggressor is disabled (down or dead, doesnt matter).


http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.257862-Things-You-Might-Incorrectly-Believe-About-Guns

Are you telling me you need a laser sight for someone who is within punching distance? (less than two feet)

Unless the bullet exits literally perpendicular to the barrel, at that distance it's not a problem.

Obviously you don't know as much as you think.

My point is not that the man has to be 100% disabled and paralyzed, he just needs to no longer be able to pose a threat of grievous bodily injury, and I'd say a bullet would do that pretty well considering he was only using his goddamned fists! Yeah he might have gotten another punch or two in, but that's not exactly a threat to your life.

 

[Slycne]

(why the FUCK do you need a laser sight for self defense while jogging?)

I'll quote myself from earlier -

Secondly, I hardly beleive that there is any reason for anyone to need a laser sight on their gun for self defence. Laser sights aren't for close quarters shooting like that. Hell, the mugger was killed at pretty much point blank range.

That's quite the opposite of the truth, seeing that's exactly what laser sights are for.

Despite what you see in the movies/games of snipers picking off guys with laser sights at 1000m, a laser sights primary purpose is not accuracy, in the sense of making your shots more precise, but for faster target acquisition. In close quarters rather than having to line up your shot with your normal sights, you simply put the dot on the target. This transitions into you being able to fire at your target more quickly.

At distance they are no more or less useful than any other sighting device as it can still only be sighted for a single range. Bullets don't travel flat, most barrels are designed to curved up slightly resulting in a parabolic flight. So if you sight your laser sight for center mass at 300m, it's going to be mostly accurate close in, but at 150m you'll need to aim at the dirt as the bullet will be at the top of its arc.

Military and police forces often won't use laser sights unless they are in a non-visible spectrum, like infrared paired with night vision goggles, and then if they can confirm only their forces have the equipment to see them, primary because they can be seen and give away their presence otherwise.

So contrary to there being no reason, a laser sight is actually a very reasonable accessory for someone worried about defending themselves in a close environment, in a rapid manner and is not concerned about the red dot giving away their position.

 

[mirasiel]

My point was obviously and clearly that he had a weapon thats power was not proportional to the intent. Which was basic self defense from common thugs.

Hollow point round: Deforms on impact ensuring a large amount of energy is dumped into the target doing lots of tissue damage and most likely toppling your target. This mean that when you shoot someone with it you ruin their day and most likely put them on their arse.

The other effect of the round deforming and dumping its energy is that it ceases to move forwards and (hopefully) does not leave the target area (chest, hip and arse of criminal scumbag in this case) and kill some little old lady watching from downrange.

These properties make it the perfect round for defending yourself at probably close range against angry young males who want to hurt you in an urban setting.

/edit some one beat me too it on the laser sight and I shouldn't have said that last sarcastic part.

 

[Madara XIII]

I'd say the mugger deserved to get shot, it's unfortunate that he died, but that's how it goes sometimes.

Indeed. I'd have to say shooting out of self-defense is justifiable, however I believe the killing was unintentional and was the result of a panicked reaction. People can debate about this all they like, but sometimes you just have to take action. Not everyone can calmly assess a situation when their well-being is at stake.

As Bob Dylan once sang "For he who gets hurt will be he who has stalled"

Man the times, they are a-changing....*Blows Harmonica*

 

[macfluffers]

You realize that penetrating minimally IS maximum harm right? You WANT the bullet to exit your body.

Secondly, eight shots is not normal, expected, or alright. If this guy needed a gun, he should have properly prepared himself for what to do in a crisis, he should have received training on how to defend yourself without turning a guy into swiss cheese with special anti-infantry rounds.

You might say "well, he panicked, it was a mistake" well, it was a mistake that cost a human life, I am all for having a gun for self defense, but if you don't receive the training you need to responsibly use it, you SHOULD be held accountable for killing someone.

Before you say "how could he have done this any differently!?" I would say he should have shot at a limb if possible, if NOT possible, he should have fired one, MAYBE two shots. Eight shots mean he was not prepared for the responsibility of gun ownership.

One cause, two effects. You're assuming that he used hollow-points because he wanted to hurt someone, when it's also possible he just only wanted to hurt one person and no one else at a time.

You don't get it: when you shoot someone, you're supposed to shoot to kill. It's what everyone is told to do if they need to shoot somebody. Shooting limbs is very difficult, you're told to aim for the torso. In fact, shooting anything in a tense situation is difficult. Ask ANYONE who has any real experience and training, you aim to kill, and you aim for the torso. Also, there's no difference between killing someone with two bullets and killing with eight.

Victim is alive, mugger is dead. This is how it's supposed to work.

You think it's alright to kill a man who does not immediately threaten you physically, and only verbally tells you to give him your money?

You're insane, and you should be careful, because if Baker's case isn't clear cut, that situation would certainly be murder.

If they threaten me verbally, that's the same as threatening physically. There's no difference. The danger is still present.

If a guy comes up and asks for money, that's not mugging. If a guy says he's going to punch me until I give up my wallet and watch, that's a mugging. He doesn't need to show a weapon or raise his fist, it's enough.

As Bob Dylan once sang "For he who gets hurt will be he who has stalled"

Man the times, they are a-changing....*Blows Harmonica*

I love you for that.