Poll: Teen Shot dead after attempting to mug man

[Starke]

With his lip cut and suffering blurred vision he said he pulled out a handgun that was fitted with a laser sight and fired eight times.
Mustelier was hit four times with hollow pointed bullets fired from the .45calibre weapon.

Bit of an overreaction, don't you think?
I don't think it's what I'd do

On the off chance no one has said anything. Four rounds is fairly reasonable given the circumstances. The average takedown with a pistol is three shots, and even trained professionals rarely get it below that in a live situation. The only real issue is that he put 8 rounds down range, but that's certainly understandable given the situation.

 

[Daddy Go Bot]

So it's better that a young man dies than a middle aged man loses the cash he's carrying?

Just another reason why gun control is completely necessary. When your first reaction to a threat is to take someones life there's something very wrong. There's a huge difference between self-defense and murder/manslaughter.

Better a thug dies than another guy gets beaten unconscious for the thug's personal amusement. Not as if getting beaten unconscious has any dangers at all.

If you're randomly assaulted in an alley in the middle of the night by 2 thugs, it's either because:

A.) They're amateur muggers
B.) They will completely fuck you up for their own amusement
C.) They will mug you and kill you
D.) Simply kill you.

 

[Danpascooch]

snip

Someone get this man a cookie! This is what I've been trying to say!

snip

You get a cookie too.

people in the US have different values than me and that makes them fascists

Baker didn't know he was being mugged. He killed the mugger before the mugger attacked before asking for money, because he was an idiot. Baker thought he was fighting for his life, and as far as we know, the kids may have considered killing him.

By the way, ALL BULLETS ARE MEANT TO KILL. They're just less effective than full metal jackets against armor.

Sorry that my country has different values than yours.

snip

I'm tired, so I'll just close by saying that if you wait until your assailant draws a weapon, he'll draw it first, and then shoot it first, meaning you're the only who will die. You can't wait for him/her.

I agree, you don't wait for him to fire your first shot, but you sure as hell don't fire 7 more when he doesn't even reach for anything.

 

[EHKOS]

I think four bullets is excessive. I would have tried to wound him then call the cops and an ambulance. I do this in RDR too, I hogtie people whenever I can, and yet in other games I have no quells about brutally murdering everyone....odd. Can I get a CCW license for a lasso?

 

[Slycne]

I'll also repeat myself from earlier.

If he couldn't shoot someone from the UNDER TWO FOOT RANGE required for the guy to punch him, he is legally blind and has no business owning a gun.

Would he need it for 50 feet? Sure, does he need it for a guy who is punching him? Or even a guy charging him with a knife? no.

And like I said, you're confusing the intent and usage of a laser sight, because you are describing their intended purpose exactly opposite. You wouldn't need to use a laser sight at 50 feet because you have time to properly aim, you would want a laser sight if you are trying to defend yourself quickly and in a close proximity. It's a tool primarily for faster target acquisition not necessarily for precision.

 

[Scars Unseen]

You realize that penetrating minimally IS maximum harm right? You WANT the bullet to exit your body.

Secondly, eight shots is not normal, expected, or alright. If this guy needed a gun, he should have properly prepared himself for what to do in a crisis, he should have received training on how to defend yourself without turning a guy into swiss cheese with special anti-infantry rounds.

You might say "well, he panicked, it was a mistake" well, it was a mistake that cost a human life, I am all for having a gun for self defense, but if you don't receive the training you need to responsibly use it, you SHOULD be held accountable for killing someone.

Before you say "how could he have done this any differently!?" I would say he should have shot at a limb if possible, if NOT possible, he should have fired one, MAYBE two shots. Eight shots mean he was not prepared for the responsibility of gun ownership.

One cause, two effects. You're assuming that he used hollow-points because he wanted to hurt someone, when it's also possible he just only wanted to hurt one person and no one else at a time.

You don't get it: when you shoot someone, you're supposed to shoot to kill. It's what everyone is told to do if they need to shoot somebody. Shooting limbs is very difficult, you're told to aim for the torso. In fact, shooting anything in a tense situation is difficult. Ask ANYONE who has any real experience and training, you aim to kill, and you aim for the torso. Also, there's no difference between killing someone with two bullets and killing with eight.

Victim is alive, mugger is dead. This is how it's supposed to work.

You think it's alright to kill a man who does not immediately threaten you physically, and only verbally tells you to give him your money?

You're insane, and you should be careful, because if Baker's case isn't clear cut, that situation would certainly be murder.

If they threaten me verbally, that's the same as threatening physically. There's no difference. The danger is still present.

If a guy comes up and asks for money, that's not mugging. If a guy says he's going to punch me until I give up my wallet and watch, that's a mugging. He doesn't need to show a weapon or raise his fist, it's enough.

As Bob Dylan once sang "For he who gets hurt will be he who has stalled"

Man the times, they are a-changing....*Blows Harmonica*

I love you for that.

It may be difficult to aim for the limb, but eight shots is overkill, can you honestly see any situation where the man would not stop punching him after being shot? Yes he CAN still punch him, but why the fuck would an unarmed attacker continue attacking after he heard a gun go off in his face?

You're kidding right? If I got shot at close range and had the capacity to do anything other than lie on the floor and bleed to death, the only thought that would be running through my adrenaline flooded head would be that I need to do whatever I can to get that gun away from the guy doing the shooting. It's called flight or fight instinct for a reason. Running isn't the only possible response. That's why, if you must shoot, shoot to kill.

 

[The Stonker]

Fuck me.
If people are trying to blame Barker for this then they're fucked up.
It would be like blaming a rape victim for the rape and then the rape victim shoots him in the head or stuns his balls.
Now lets make the rapist a teen, they would actually pity the teen for losing his balls.
Fucking disgusting! And GO GUN LAWS!

 

[Daddy Go Bot]

I think four bullets is excessive. I would have tried to wound him then call the cops and an ambulance. I do this in RDR too, I hogtie people whenever I can, and yet in other games I have no quells about brutally murdering everyone....odd. Can I get a CCW license for a lasso?

You shoot to kill; anything else is pure hollywood.

 

[mirasiel]

I don't think the M16 not stopping suicide bombers in Iraq really relates to a jogger defending himself from a fucking MUGGING.

Well it serves 2 purposes, firstly it shows you that yes people who have been shot can keep on trucking if you dont knock them down hard and secondly, and maybe this was a little too subtle, the round that the m16 usually fires would be the kind of round that (certain) people would have wanted Baker to fire IE it is a solid round that doesn't fragment* or deform* but instead passes through 'cleanly'(for a certain value of clean) the target and carries merrily on it way down range.

Unlike the hollow point rounds this fellow used.

Do you see where I'm going, shall I use pictures**?


*well not like a HP round anyways, they still do what bullets do when they hit hard stuff, just not as much.

** Yeah..I probably shouldn't have bothered editing out the first one either if you were just gonna whine about it

 

[Danpascooch]

I'll also repeat myself from earlier.

If he couldn't shoot someone from the UNDER TWO FOOT RANGE required for the guy to punch him, he is legally blind and has no business owning a gun.

Would he need it for 50 feet? Sure, does he need it for a guy who is punching him? Or even a guy charging him with a knife? no.

And like I said, you're confusing the intent and usage of a laser sight, because you are describing their intended purpose exactly opposite. You wouldn't need to use a laser sight at 50 feet because you have time to properly aim, you would want a laser sight if you are trying to defend yourself quickly and in a close proximity. It's a tool primarily for faster target acquisition not necessarily for precision.

I know they aren't nearly as accurate as in the media, but I can't imagine you need a laser when a guy is so close you can literally press the barrel against him

 

[BabySinclair]

Sad the kid died but that's what happens if you try to rob someone and you don't know them, they may be packing and plug you. 8 trigger pulls can go by pretty quick in a high stress scenario and the fact that half of the militarily trained shots missed means he wasn't able to focus.

Regrettable, yes. Criminal, no.

 

[freakydan]

The story says nothing about firing off a warning shot, or even shouting out a warning. I don't know about anyone else, but if someone points a gun at me and tells me to stop, I'm gonna ask permission very politely before I so much as piss myself. Plus, to everyone bringing up the point "He shot the one who hit him, not the one who was running," the one who was running likely had the guy standing over the armed man as a human shield. Plus, who's to say the four shots that missed weren't intended for the rapidly shrinking, moving target? Bottom line, had he issued a warning, or given the guy time to react before opening fire, he would have been justified, but as is, I have a hard time believing we shouldn't punish a guy who shot first and asked questions later.

 

[Hallow'sEve]

If you're willing to commit an act of crime you must also be willing to accept any consequences of that action. Whether it be jail time or getting shot, there are no "easy consequences" for breaking the laws that keep society from tearing itself apart. This is not the movies, this is real life. Baker was completely within his rights to fire his weapon. The fact that he fired 8 shots means nothing (consider also he had blurred vision, counting for only a 50% accuracy rate).
If you were in his situation you would do the same thing. Because when your survival instinct kicks in, it's not going to worry about "Oh gee, 8 shots might be offensive, I'll just fire one for a warning shot. That way, if they do have a gun or other weapon, they know to take me out quicker".
And what if the attacker, or his friend, DID have a gun? What if Baker was shot dead in the park? Would you really be willing to risk that by siding with the criminal?


Some fucking anvils need to be dropped people. Crime is NEVER okay.

 

[mirasiel]

~snip~

Yes, you would react like that but I ask you, do you often attack people during the night for shits and giggles with the intention of doing at least enough harm to knock them out?

 

[Daddy Go Bot]

The story says nothing about firing off a warning shot, or even shouting out a warning. I don't know about anyone else, but if someone points a gun at me and tells me to stop, I'm gonna ask permission very politely before I so much as piss myself. Plus, to everyone bringing up the point "He shot the one who hit him, not the one who was running," the one who was running likely had the guy standing over the armed man as a human shield. Plus, who's to say the four shots that missed weren't intended for the rapidly shrinking, moving target? Bottom line, had he issued a warning, or given the guy time to react before opening fire, he would have been justified, but as is, I have a hard time believing we shouldn't punish a guy who shot first and asked questions later.

There's absolutely no such thing as "warning shots", and when at close range there's no such thing as "dude, I have a gun, so please stop punching me". Given the situation they could easily disarm him and anyone with half a brain would not let that happen.

 

[Laurier]

I fully support the mans decision the mans choice to use deadly force he believed his life and well being was in jeopardy. 8 shots is reasonable considering he was most likely disoriented from the attack and considering only 4 hit I would say it's extremely reasonable that he was unsure if he had hit his target; once a person has escalated the situation by using deadly force he better make sure he dispatches his target or else the consequences are quite possibly even more dire.

 

[Henrik Moeller]

You should always aim to control a situation with the minimum amount of force.
Raised voice
Physical force
Weapon threat
Disabling force
Killing force

Firing 8 hollow points at close range isn't an appropriate response to being punched in the face.

 

[Scars Unseen]

I think four bullets is excessive. I would have tried to wound him then call the cops and an ambulance. I do this in RDR too, I hogtie people whenever I can, and yet in other games I have no quells about brutally murdering everyone....odd. Can I get a CCW license for a lasso?

You probably would have, at best, gotten the shit beat out of you because you would be aiming for something other than center mass with a fresh head injury and your attacker right on top of you. At worst, the article would be titled "Man Shot with His Own Gun in Mugging."

 

[75percent_nab]

I am sorry if someone have already said this, but I see the arguement "4/8 shots is a bit exccesive" and so on. I'd just like to point out the factor of adrenaline and/or panic. If he's jumped by a random dude who punches him in the mouth, I can understand him not stopping firing after 1 shot or so. Not saying it was completely reasonable of him to shoot the mugger, but I can understand why he shot so many times.