Poll: Teen Shot dead after attempting to mug man

[Autofaux]

If they assaulted this man, he had every right to defend himself. Did he pull out his weapon and fire with the intent to kill, perhaps, but in his mind, it was either himself or person he feared would kill him.

It's a hell of a grey area, clearer for some, and I'm not saying that the man should have been shot, but under those circumstances, better the other guy is dead than you.

And this is coming from an Australian, where we have some of the tightest gun control laws in the world.

 

[Idiotastic]

You attack someone,someone defends.

Survival of the fittest,or in this case: the one with a gun.

 

[Shadowtek]

I have a hunting rifle that (before the scope was damaged) I could shoot a dime off of a fencepost at twenty yards. Many people can claim similar stories. Hoverer, a handgun is relatively useless unless the target is at close range. Even with a laser sight most handguns are only fairly accurate at anything close to ten yards, unless you are well trained. So it would have been a necessity for multiple shots to be fired.

 

[Zechariah Riojas]

Sorry but I have to disagree with a lot of people here. It was just a couple of kids and the guy shot him eight times. He could have fired a warning shot, I mean hes clearly capable of handling himself if hes applying for the military and keeps fit. The kid had his whole life to turn around, but now he won't get that chance. People who do bad things can change, and I don't think it was necessary to shot him eight times so he was sure he would be dead.

He was shot him 4 not 8 times. Did the mugger deserve to die, no. Did he deserve to get shot, probably. The jogger, the one that got mugged, fired eight shots which might have been a little much, but he was hit by one of the two muggers, which is the same one that was shot. He probably fired till he expended the entire clip just out of panic, but my only question is who goes for a run that late that they know to carry a gun every time they run?

 

[Something Amyss]

It seems he had legit reason to believe he was going to be attacked with a weapon.

It's hard to fault someone in fear for their life for shooting someone.

 

[Seneschal]

But me. All criminals have no right to live, especially if your crimes involve the killing, exploitation and abuse of innocent people. Any one sticking up for the rights of criminals are pathetic. There own actions are breaking the law. So if they die or get injured commiting that crime then that is tough.

I want a world where the innocent are deemed more worthy than the criminals. Doesnt seem like it these days.

I want a world where everyone is treated as an equal human being. Clearly not the one you're after. I assume you've never done anything in your life, never downloaded illegal music or software for example? That would you a criminal, the very people you're happy with the deaths of.

I feel really REALLY sorry that you have such a shitty world view.

For fuck sake. Use your brain, we are not saying "the guy stole a sugar packet from McDonalds....shoot that bastard". A criminal that threatens lives deserves no life, especially if they are attacking me or my family. AS IN A PERSON THEATENING ME AND MY FAMILY!!! Does that make it easier all in capitals because i do not care about shoplifters or online music pirates. Just those that threated the life of me and the people i love. If they are killed through me defending myself then i will smile because i have protected me and my own. I do not want to kill but neither did i ask to be robbed. Equal means we treat people the same. How does a criminal treat people the same?

Responding with lethal force to a threat of lethal force makes sense. Technically, I believe that's what the police is here for, and there's much less chance of someone threatening you with lethal force in a place where killing devices aren't sold in supermarkets, but you'd be justified in shooting and I don't believe you or anyone reacting like you should go to jail.

And neither should Baker. But the precedent set for him is that he wasn't sure whether someone was threatening him with lethal force. He didn't know if his attackers were armed, he shot because he FEARED they were armed. And it's a reasonable guess in a place where even joggers carry weapons, but it's just too much of a slippery slope. They've now officially legalized killing on a hunch, killing as a retaliation to unarmed assault, and killing for petty theft, and not at the hands of trained law enforcement, but by barely capable civilians.

 

[Danpascooch]

From what I read, I think he was wrong.

If he had seen the muggers and they had threatened him or something before immediately attacking, he should have pulled the gun and that would most definitely have scared them off.

However, if he was jumped IMMEDIATELY with NO time to show them he has a gun or fire a warning shot, he was alright.

I don't believe that's what happened though.

EDIT: EIGHT shots!? Yeah, he was wrong.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Whether what Baker did was "right" or not is up to each person's personal sense of morality. But he did what he was supposed to do. If you don't feel your life is in danger, you don't pull your gun. If you pull your gun, you shoot to kill. That's not morality, it's training.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the boy deserved death, but I will say that when you decide to enact violence on someone, you are taking your life into your own hands. Some people learn that lesson. Others never get the chance.

 

[Danpascooch]

But me. All criminals have no right to live, especially if your crimes involve the killing, exploitation and abuse of innocent people. Any one sticking up for the rights of criminals are pathetic. There own actions are breaking the law. So if they die or get injured commiting that crime then that is tough.

I want a world where the innocent are deemed more worthy than the criminals. Doesnt seem like it these days.

I want a world where everyone is treated as an equal human being. Clearly not the one you're after. I assume you've never done anything in your life, never downloaded illegal music or software for example? That would you a criminal, the very people you're happy with the deaths of.

I feel really REALLY sorry that you have such a shitty world view.

For fuck sake. Use your brain, we are not saying "the guy stole a sugar packet from McDonalds....shoot that bastard". A criminal that threatens lives deserves no life, especially if they are attacking me or my family. AS IN A PERSON THEATENING ME AND MY FAMILY!!! Does that make it easier all in capitals because i do not care about shoplifters or online music pirates. Just those that threated the life of me and the people i love. If they are killed through me defending myself then i will smile because i have protected me and my own. I do not want to kill but neither did i ask to be robbed. Equal means we treat people the same. How does a criminal treat people the same?

Responding with lethal force to a threat of lethal force makes sense. Technically, I believe that's what the police is here for, and there's much less chance of someone threatening you with lethal force in a place where killing devices aren't sold in supermarkets, but you'd be justified in shooting and I don't believe you or anyone reacting like you should go to jail.

And neither should Baker. But the precedent set for him is that he wasn't sure whether someone was threatening him with lethal force. He didn't know if his attackers were armed, he shot because he FEARED they were armed. And it's a reasonable guess in a place where even joggers carry weapons, but it's just too much of a slippery slope. They've now officially legalized killing on a hunch, killing as a retaliation to unarmed assault, and killing for petty theft, and not at the hands of trained law enforcement, but by barely capable civilians.

I would say he was alright if he fired one shot, but he fired EIGHT that is way beyond ANY reasonable self defense.

 

[macfluffers]

snip

Put it this way: If it was you who was assaulted on the street, are you going to give half a shit about the welfare your assailants? Would you have any sympathy if they dropped dead?

I would say he was alright if he fired one shot, but he fired EIGHT that is way beyond ANY reasonable self defense.

God, I'm so tired of repeating myself. Eight shots is not excessive. Handguns are not accurate, and you need to put multiple bullets into someone to kill them. One bullet would have probably missed, and if it hit, it wouldn't have been a kill shot.

 

[Danpascooch]

'The statute provides immunity for a citizen who reasonably believes they are in danger of serious bodily injury or death or the commission of forcible felony,' said Suarez.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1346574/Jogger-Thomas-Baker-shot-dead-unarmed-mugger-released-charge.html#ixzz1BP0Us6uP

Commission of forcible felony? WTF does that mean? Can I now shoot dead someone who forces me to give them money but does not threaten me physically?

 

[macfluffers]

Commission of forcible felony? WTF does that mean? Can I now shoot dead someone who forces me to give them money but does not threaten me physically?

Probably. Threat of violence should be treated the same as violence.

 

[Danpascooch]

But me. All criminals have no right to live, especially if your crimes involve the killing, exploitation and abuse of innocent people. Any one sticking up for the rights of criminals are pathetic. There own actions are breaking the law. So if they die or get injured commiting that crime then that is tough.

I want a world where the innocent are deemed more worthy than the criminals. Doesnt seem like it these days.

I want a world where everyone is treated as an equal human being. Clearly not the one you're after. I assume you've never done anything in your life, never downloaded illegal music or software for example? That would you a criminal, the very people you're happy with the deaths of.

I feel really REALLY sorry that you have such a shitty world view.

For fuck sake. Use your brain, we are not saying "the guy stole a sugar packet from McDonalds....shoot that bastard". A criminal that threatens lives deserves no life, especially if they are attacking me or my family. AS IN A PERSON THEATENING ME AND MY FAMILY!!! Does that make it easier all in capitals because i do not care about shoplifters or online music pirates. Just those that threated the life of me and the people i love. If they are killed through me defending myself then i will smile because i have protected me and my own. I do not want to kill but neither did i ask to be robbed. Equal means we treat people the same. How does a criminal treat people the same?

Responding with lethal force to a threat of lethal force makes sense. Technically, I believe that's what the police is here for, and there's much less chance of someone threatening you with lethal force in a place where killing devices aren't sold in supermarkets, but you'd be justified in shooting and I don't believe you or anyone reacting like you should go to jail.

And neither should Baker. But the precedent set for him is that he wasn't sure whether someone was threatening him with lethal force. He didn't know if his attackers were armed, he shot because he FEARED they were armed. And it's a reasonable guess in a place where even joggers carry weapons, but it's just too much of a slippery slope. They've now officially legalized killing on a hunch, killing as a retaliation to unarmed assault, and killing for petty theft, and not at the hands of trained law enforcement, but by barely capable civilians.

I would say he was alright if he fired one shot, but he fired EIGHT that is way beyond ANY reasonable self defense.

Not sayin he was right to fire 8 shots. But i would keep firing until i felt safe. Not like he shot him with one shot and then shot him a further 7 times while on the floor. Remember he was scared for his life and i am sure you would do the same. Afterwards you may regret it but at that moment you would not be worrying about it.

The guy had a pistol with a laser sight and HOLLOW POINT ROUNDS designed specifically to cause maximum harm to unarmored targets.

Unless he was expecting to be mugged by a SWAT team, he had no business carrying around that kind of weapon for self defense while JOGGING.

The eight shots was just the final nail in the coffin.

 

[Odin311]

And neither should Baker. But the precedent set for him is that he wasn't sure whether someone was threatening him with lethal force. He didn't know if his attackers were armed, he shot because he FEARED they were armed. And it's a reasonable guess in a place where even joggers carry weapons, but it's just too much of a slippery slope. They've now officially legalized killing on a hunch, killing as a retaliation to unarmed assault, and killing for petty theft, and not at the hands of trained law enforcement, but by barely capable civilians.

Actually the laws on this are pretty clear, and has been this way for a long time. This shooting is not the first, nor will it be the last. And while tragic, it does not set precedent in any way.

 

[macfluffers]

The guy had a pistol with a laser sight and HOLLOW POINT ROUNDS designed specifically to cause maximum harm to unarmored targets.

Unless he was expecting to be mugged by a SWAT team, he had no business carrying around that kind of weapon for self defense while JOGGING.

The eight shots was just the final nail in the coffin.

Hollow points are also designed for minimal penetration, meaning that the bullet will stop moving once it hits flesh. They have more purposes than causing greater injury.

He obviously needed the weapon, so I don't see what you're complaining about.

And, as it's been said before, 8 shots is normal and expected.

 

[Danpascooch]

From what I read, I think he was wrong.

If he had seen the muggers and they had threatened him or something before immediately attacking, he should have pulled the gun and that would most definitely have scared them off.

However, if he was jumped IMMEDIATELY with NO time to show them he has a gun or fire a warning shot, he was alright.

I don't believe that's what happened though.

I guess that is the issue. Who knows how we would react in them seconds he had. After all the piece said he was punched in the face before he reacted. He was scared for his life and over reacted. I can accept that. But if them two people hadnt attacked him then they wouldnt have been shot. Am not condoning violence, just saying they made that choice and they suffered the concequence. Rather they were shot than read a story about a guy beaten to death and robbed. Atleast he fought back.

Muggers usually ask for money or something before they attack, it doesn't make a lot of sense, I'm not sure I buy the story.

Considering he was carrying a pistol with a laser sight, and hollow point rounds, and fired EIGHT SHOTS, it seems a little fucking crazy to me.

He overreacted, but when the stakes are as high as life or death, you need to be held accountable for your overreactions, you shouldn't be carrying that kind of weapon around unless you are trained and know how to properly use it in a crisis, as in, NOT SHOOTING A MUGGER EIGHT TIMES.