Poll: The fantasy RPG genre needs more practical equipment

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

The "fantasy" needs more "practical"...

OK. Just that statement right there makes me wanna slam my head in a wall. Unless that fantasy delves into concepts centered around practical things and practical means...it's a goddamn fantasy! Let it be what it is.

I tend to just take things in the context of which they are presented, laugh at the ludicrousness of some things and note the awesomeness of things that pique my attention, and just...play on.

 

[NiPah]

The major issue that I haven't seen addressed in this thread is the use of fear in warfare.
Sure practicality has it's place in warfare, but if your equipment doesn't cause your enemies to shit themselves in fear then you're missing a major tool in your arsenal.
Motifs of death, hell, and the bones of their fallen comrades are all quite practical to have adorning your armor, sure you still want to move freely, but what's more menacing, a large traffic cone with a sword:

Spoiler

Or something that seemingly crawled out of hell for the soul purpose of ending your life?

Please point me the armor that "seemingly crawled out of hell for the purpsoe of ending your life" that fills these quotas:

1. Must be possible to actually make.
2. You have to be able to sit down and huddle about, without getting a spike in your face.
3. Not be a danger to guys next to you.
4. Must be possible to walk around in.

So please, do point me some examples.

Māori warriors would be a good example of a practical armor, not much armor to speak of but used heads of dead enemies, tattoos, and extreme facial gestures.
As for armor, Chinese and Japanese often had skull and death motifs for their masks:

Spoiler

I admit I'm not as well versed in historical armors, I was more making the point that fear is a very powerful weapon in warfare. In World War 1 chemical weapons were extremely ineffective but as a psychological weapon it was a beast, same with tanks in World War 2, not really that powerful but if you see one rolling towards you you freak out.

Also good examples would be Africian and Native American armors, but google has been sucking when trying to find historically accurate examples.

(lastly can it with the vinegar, I'm just here to have fun).

 

[ninja666]

Oh, and I'm not sure how far you take things, but I'll also point out that if your looking for pure realism and historical accuracy you might want to see if you can contact one of the more strict SCA cantons, you'll find a lot of like minded people in such organizations. People that are pretty much anti-fantasy, and get picky about the authentic appearance of costumes and such down to the buttons, acting to ensure everything is properly "period". Fantasy and history are heavily at odds when it comes to this kind of stuff.

I certainly don't take things that far. I'm pretty lenient to be honest. I'm all in for a little realism mixed with fantasy. As I mentioned before, to me FromSoftware does a great job at making "practical" fantasy armors - they look inspired by authentic historical ones (in Demon's Souls' case - Italian and Spanish, in Dark Souls' case - Western Europe and Middle East with a touch of Asia and Africa), they all have a personal "touch" of the designer (a spike there, a horn there, you get where I'm coming from), but most importantly they look like they can actually protect you. I don't get why is it so hard for game designers to grasp a concept that armor is supposed to protect and not just look good?

 

[SonofSpermcube]

SO if...this Armour...isn't all

You'd have to be really brave not to shit your bowels out when seeing something like this during battle.

No you wouldn't. Look at those little T-rex arms. Dude's got no reach.

 

[ninja666]

I mean just look at Skyrim. The iron armor you posted is pretty mundane outside of the horned helmet and lack of sleeves. That's pretty much the case for most of the armor up to stuff like elven.

Sure... Whatever you say...

 

[Nemusus]

Basically, it's something you'd not be afraid to wear into a real battle. It has to be sleek and slender, fit well, protect every part of your body equally and allow you to be mobile. I don't know how buff you'd have to be to be able to move and fight with a Warhammer or Warcraft-styled armour.

I'm not sure why you included the Skyrim armour in the impractical set. Yeah it's sleeveless, but it seems to allow more arm/shoulder movement than if you were wearing plate armour. I'm not excusing all of Skyrim's armour by the way- the Daedric set in particular looks like it'd poke your eyes out as you try and put it on.

Overall though, I think they definitely need to make female armour more practical, but only to the same extent that male armour is. Most of the time, the armour tends to be a stylistic thing, and there's not too many ways to make practical armour stylish without more or less recreating different historical armour sets. For games that do have more of a focus on history, then sure, they should be 100% down to earth when it comes to the design, but the ludicrously impractical armour in fantasy RPGs is as much about making a distinct impression as it is about being armour. They could perhaps stand to be a little less gaudy, but not to the extent you seem to be suggesting.

 

[ninja666]

I'm not sure why you included the Skyrim armour in the impractical set. Yeah it's sleeveless, but it seems to allow more arm/shoulder movement than if you were wearing plate armour.

There happens to be an artery located under your right armpit, that when cut would make you bleed to death in seconds. Coincidentally, the armpits, along with whole goddamn arms, in this armor are perfectly open to any enemy attacks. A stab or a cut while you're raising your sword at an enemy and you're dead.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

whether it's high fantasy, like Oblivion, or dark fantasy, like Diablo.

Diablo isn't dark fantasy - it's still high fantasy. Actually, Diablo III is higher fantasy that, say, Skyrim.

If you want Low Fantasy (aka Dark Fantasy) you pretty much need to drop down to the Witcher. And the Witcher games tend to be higher fantasy than the Witcher novels upon which the games are based.

But I digress.

OT: It really depends on the art style of the game. Art style - a consistent visual style - matters a lot more than any specific look.

If the game looks realistic, then the armor (and weapons) should look realistic to real world armor from the same era.

If a game is very stylized, then the armor (and weapons) should look stylized in the same style.

Edit: And here's one more:

Anima Tactics characters (pictured above) have a very stylized art style. Their armor is less than practical (either due to coverage issues or over-the-top decorations) but it looks artistically beautiful and it is consistent within the art style of the world.

 

[Cryselle]

I'm not sure why you included the Skyrim armour in the impractical set. Yeah it's sleeveless, but it seems to allow more arm/shoulder movement than if you were wearing plate armour.

There happens to be an artery located under your right armpit, that when cut would make you bleed to death in seconds. Coincidentally, the armpits, along with whole goddamn arms, in this armor are perfectly open to any enemy attacks. A stab or a cut while you're raising your sword at an enemy and you're dead.

To expound on this, your arm is also usually the closest thing to the enemy, and even if you are not killed by a strike to it, if you're forced to drop your own weaponry because of a forearm or hand wound then death is a very likely next step. Arm protection is very very important in a sword fight, the epicly showy 'run the enemy fully through the chest with your blade' was not really a common event. Poking an opponent in the sword arm until he can't wield his blade anymore is a very solid strategy, and is why I'd not want to duel a person skilled with a rapier.


That being said, I'm okay with fantasy armor sets being impractical, because a major goal of them is to be recognizable. They want people who don't really know much about actual armor to be able to tell, at a glance, what a friend or enemy is wearing and be able to mentally assign a 'danger rating' to them. Sometimes from a distance.

 

[Eddie the head]

Skyrim guards need better kneepads

So like her?

Spoiler: Kneepads

I'm not joking when I first saw that picture that's the first thing I noticed.

More on topic. I guess I can see where you're coming form. When I did play WoW and games with very ornate armor I always preferred the slimmer builds because after a point it just starts to look silly.

 

[default]

Meh, it's all just aesthetics and personal taste. Some people like that sort of visual design. I sure as fuck don't. It pisses me off and it just looks tasteless, clunky and overdesigned. I was talking to some friends about this last night actually as we played Guild Wars 2. They didn't get it, they prefer their 'awesome' and 'epic' fantasy armour and looked down on my simple helm, coat of mail and basic straight sword. It is nice having all that character variety and personality in an MMO, but it's not my style.

If given the option I will almost always transmute my high level gear to look like a plain and simple but still fashionable suit of armour, or just play a game with half decent art direction.

The major issue that I haven't seen addressed in this thread is the use of fear in warfare.
Sure practicality has it's place in warfare, but if your equipment doesn't cause your enemies to shit themselves in fear then you're missing a major tool in your arsenal.
Motifs of death, hell, and the bones of their fallen comrades are all quite practical to have adorning your armor, sure you still want to move freely, but what's more menacing, a large traffic cone with a sword:

Spoiler

Or something that seemingly crawled out of hell for the soul purpose of ending your life?

Please point me the armor that "seemingly crawled out of hell for the purpsoe of ending your life" that fills these quotas:

1. Must be possible to actually make.
2. You have to be able to sit down and huddle about, without getting a spike in your face.
3. Not be a danger to guys next to you.
4. Must be possible to walk around in.

So please, do point me some examples.

Agreed. To me if I see a massive Blizzard or Warhammer-style dark knight with his giant glowing eyes, massive oversized axe, skulls and with shoulder pads the size of bathtubs it just looks fucking stupid.

Where's the subtlety and taste in design? Yeah it's fantasy, but that doesn't mean everything has to look so stupid and over the top.

Like this for example. No design substance whatsoever.

 

[default]

Double post.

 

[MirenBainesUSMC]

I suppose I look for authenticity when the world crafted demands that it retains historical/factual design.

Of course you would be fighting decades of this sort of thing from fantasy art from the 60's-70's to the Manga art of today --- you'll still get skimpy non-sense armor or over the top, crazy armor with extras where extra's shouldn't be.

I would agree it all has to do with style. Its not very aesthetically pleasing if everyone is basically wearing uniformed armor with a slight difference being some coat of arms on say, a high ranking knight or if you will the proverbial " Black Knight" vs the " White Knight" cliche. Plus... I mean I can't really find too many people complaining about what Lady Death or Red Sonya looked like, who else can kill multiple enemy combatants and still look good in a tiny string bikini " armor" with maybe a few protective elements upon the forearms or legs?

I say there isn't a definitive answer because both schools of thought are good points. I think it would be a better argument to say that there should be possibly more games with practicality and authenticity in mind when being created.

Both sides have relevant stances on the issue.

There was a long and drawn out discussion in the BioWare forums of the same kind concerning the fashion-Sci Fi look of ME2 and ME3 vs ME1. In ME1, there was practical looking battle armor for Men and Women --- IE: Titan IV armor for Females and Males. They looked like real and practical space-Marine/infantry suits.

Now we fast forward to ME2... and it turns into Mass Sexual Effect: Bikini Space Bunnies and Space Chippendales Attack! The best you maybe saw was Shepard's N7/Cerberus armor....the rest of the team consisted of opened in the front revealing wear ( Samara ), Over-sexualized jump suit ( Miranda), Trench-Coat with Chest reveal ( Thane ), Cerberus Male Stripper ( Jacob) --- about the only people that looked the part was Garrus, Tali, Grunt, Zhaeed, and Mordin. The thing about it....the costume never changed and in some cut-scenes, they were able to just take it off with nothing else underneath! The same crap you wore out in the field acts like your night time pajamas.....that was absolutely crazy....BUT... it was stylish.

So there is a good direct comparison of competing ideas of what " should be". If it were me, I would more side with the how Star Trek and Firefly dealt with such situations but I digress.

 

[AntiChri5]

OP, i find myself agreeing with your premise but strongly disagreeing with many of your examples.

One thing i have to ask though, have you actually played Skyrim? How familiar are you with the context within which many of the examples you site exist?

 

[Khadhar]

"Sure, I may be surrounded by unholy soul-sucking demons from the darkest pits of my nightmares wielding evil magics the likes of which humanity cannot even comprehend, but those shoulderpads just don't seem plausible to me!"

This is the scenario I see in my head whenever I hear this argument...

Certainly, I can understand people preferring the realistic style, but in my case I personally hold to the principle of why bother with fantasy, if you aren't going to be fantastical?

I value the imaginative representation of the armour, rather than it's practicality, for the obvious reason we have no armour like this in real life is because it isn't possible. Fantasy deals in the impossible as it's bread and butter, dragons, magic, demons and monsters, elemental dimensions, time travel and alternate realities, where even the laws of physics do not always apply. I think the unrealistic armour is simply an extension of that, and allows for common themes in visual style and promotes imagination.

 

[ninja666]

OP, i find myself agreeing with your premise but strongly disagreeing with many of your examples.

I know confronting Mount & Blade or Dark Souls style of armor with Warhammer is a little bit extreme, but that was the point of it - to show how few games actually have an armor that can be called practical, while there are many games that either rely on Warhammer's idea of equipment completely, or do something inbetween, that more often than not looks equally stupid. Like Dragon Age 2 for example.

Looks kinda realistic, but there are so many giant, pointy parts that you don't really need a weapon while wearing it - you can just poke your enemy to death with your elbow.

One thing i have to ask though, have you actually played Skyrim? How familiar are you with the context within which many of the examples you site exist?

I've played Skyrim for many hours and I know the context of those armor sets. That doesn't really justify their stupid look, though. I mean, the game did some of the armor right. Why not the rest?

Diablo isn't dark fantasy - it's still high fantasy.

Diablo 3? Sure. Diablo 1 & 2 - if it's not dark fantasy, then I don't know what it is, but it sure ain't high fantasy.

If you want Low Fantasy (aka Dark Fantasy)

Dark Fantasy =/= Low Fantasy. The difference between them is the level of magic. You can have a dark setting with a lot of magic that's commonly used - it's Dark Fantasy. You can't have a setting where magic is commonly used in Low Fantasy.