Poll: The Nanjing Massacre

[SckizoBoy]

Considering that most Chinese are ignorant of their own history, due to the government restriction of information, I dont think you have any right to call us ignorant.

My father worked in China very often before he retired, he happened to be there on the date of the Tienanmen Square massacre, he attempted to discuss it with the chinese engineers he worked with, they had never heard of it.

Japan have been giant assholes throughout most of their history, they have never cared about anyone who was not Japanese and treated everyone else like dirt.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March

No it is not ethical to punish anyone for the sins of their ancestors, under any circumstance.
But we must learn from history instead of avoiding it, we may not like to discuss the evils of man, but if we dont, we WILL repeat them.

Here's where I love the quote (which is ever so apt, given what you've said):

'History repeats itself because no-one was listening the first time.'

For all we try to express contrition, we should be made aware of all of mankind's transgressions, but not so that judgement may be cast. I don't think any nation's history is without blemish, so ultimately, no-one can claim any sort of superiority in that regard.

 

[Angerwing]

Chinese Holocaust... do you mean the Cultural Revolution?

*looks up*

I remember that. China called it an 'accident' and successfully pissed off Japan.

Read about it in a book "Lost in Planet China". Funny, but very informative.

Uh, what are you talking about?

 

[LongAndShort]

And the generals that commanded the massacre still have honored places in the shrine of Japan's war dead. But hey, they were simply trying to rid Asia of Western Imperialism, so it's alright...

"Yasukuni is a shrine to house the actual souls of the dead as kami, or "spirits/souls" as loosely defined in English. It is believed that all negative or evil acts committed are absolved when enshrinement occurs. This activity is strictly a religious matter since the separation of State Shinto and the Japanese government in 1945. The priesthood at the shrine has complete religious autonomy to decide to whom and how enshrinement may occur. They believe that enshrinement is permanent and irreversible. According to Shinto beliefs, by enshrining kami, Yasukuni Shrine provides a permanent residence for the spirits of those who have fought on behalf of the emperor. Yasukuni has all enshrined kami occupying the same single seat. The shrine is dedicated to give peace and rest to all those enshrined there. It was the only place to which the Emperor of Japan bowed."

Courtesy to wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine

Ha, that's interesting, I had no idea. I still don't like it. After reading that and the wiki I'd now say that they shouldn't have been enshrined in the first place. But hey, there's nothing I can do about it but grumble on the internet. And say that I appreciate the information.

 

[Vuljatar]

What do you think of the ignorance of this in western society?
-Why do you think that ignorance exists, and what could be done to remedy it?

I wasn't aware that there was prevalent ignorance of this. I thought it was, more or less, common knowledge.

Do you think Japan should admit to the events that transpired, rather than denying all knowledge of them?

It would be nice, but at this point, with all (or almost all) of the perpetrators long dead, I just can't see it being worth the trouble.

Would it be ethical to punish the descendants of those involved for the crimes committed?

Obviously not, that's as preposterous an idea as reparations for slavery.

 

[Pegghead]

It's not ignorance, people just learn about what most affects the their country.

Pretty much this, I mean I've heard vaguely of it in the past but I'd hardly call not knowing much about a massacre that occured on the part of what would become the west's enemy for the next few decades that occured right before the bloodiest conflict in human history "western ignorance" (which you repeated about a dozen times).

I mean, is the average person in the UK aware of the Coniston Massacre of Australia's history? Probably not, and I don't blame them.

 

[Gigano]

It is quite natural and unproblematic that people on other continents are not particularly aware of something that happened nearly 70 years ago. One cannot be required to shoulder problems so far away in time and space, which there is absolutely nothing to be done about anyway.

It would be wise for Japan (and other countries like Turkey) to admit their dubious past in regard to genocides - certainly didn't harm Germany to do so - but since extremely few people who participated are alive, then the people of the current nations have little to do with it.

It would obviously be profoundly unethical to punish people who have not committed any crimes themselves, and are thus not guilty of anything, for whatever their ancestors might have been up to.

 

[AWAR]

Heard about it, but what about the larger in scale Greek-Armenian genocide of 1920s? There are loads of countries that still don't recognise it which is about as criminal as denying the holocaust.

 

[AWDMANOUT]

Yeah, I had to do a project about that in school last year.

Of course it's a terrible thing, but it was so long ago. Most of those people are dead by now anyway.

As long as we remember from now on that killing people (especially mass amounts of people) is a definite no-no, I think we can thrive as a human race without needing to look back and punish what our old folks did.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

While the Rape of Nanjing was a disaster beyond imagination, these kind of atrocities are hardly uncommon. For example there is actual Holocaust, what the Nazis did to the Soviets, what the Soviets did to Eastern Europe, the Rwandan genocide, the Armenian genocide, the Crusades. This kind of crap happens...

Exactly. The reason so many human made tragedies and massacres are glossed over or unknown to the general public is because there have been so damned many of them. It doesn't matter how many you list, you'll always have forgotten a fair number of others (and when it's on the internet, it's almost inevitable that someone with a connection to the people who suffered it will take personal offense at the oversight).

There's just too much horrible shit that's been done for it to be humanly possible to remember all of it.

 

[derelict]

If you think that's bad, ought to see what also happened around that time. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731]


People were altogether different back then. Can't really fault anyone today for the world views of the past. Best to just remember and get a move on.

I read into that link. And every person who took part in all that should of been executed after the war. I'm sure some were. It takes alot to disgust me but this did. Japan was fucked up back than.

The thing that makes it a bit harder to judge is, a great deal of advances in modern medicine can be traced back to that mess in 731. The US basically granted clemency to the butchers there in exchange for their medical data. Guess you can turn even the worst episodes in humanity into something useful.

 

[Exterminas]

Personally I consider it silly to call people out for not knowing about every gruesome murder there has been in mankinds history. To be blunt: There have been a lot.

Did you know Karl der Große comitted a genozide on the saxons? No? Ignorance of your culture!!!

Cultural ignorance is something different than average non-historian indivduals of that given culture not knowing about a given event in any other nations history.

Honestly, you can't know about all the massacers.
You know about the killing of the Zulu by the British? No? Ignorance!


History is full of horrible events, no chance of knowing all of them.

 

[mireko]

I did know about it. We have schools here too, see.

What do you think of the ignorance of this in western society?

This is one of the more well-known war crimes after the most obvious ones. How about the Armenian genocide? How about Rwanda? How about the Bosnian genocide? How about what Congo looks like today? To be honest, though. I don't know how ignorance on this topic would affect anyone who doesn't deal directly with Japan or China's history.

But sure, I'll concede that more people ought to know what happened. You could say that about pretty much any event in history, even the ones that don't involve the rape, torture and slaughter of millions.

On the plus side, Japan hasn't invaded anybody since WW2.

-Why do you think that ignorance exists, and what could be done to remedy it?

Again, they teach this stuff in schools. That's probably also the best solution.

Do you think Japan should admit to the events that transpired, rather than denying all knowledge of them?

Okay, going to have to admit some ignorance here. I know there's a strong revisionist base in Japan, but haven't they admitted to this? If not, then they definitely should. I have to wonder why you included this question, it's pretty obviously rhetorical.

Would it be ethical to punish the descendants of those involved for the crimes committed?

No. It would be morally and ethically bankrupt. One of the foundations of society is that people who commit crimes are punished. You can't punish people who haven't done anything, that's absurd.

 

[Cipher1]

I dont think its ignorance on the western society its more a case that most focus on the causes of the war and then there nations specific involvement then possibly a bit about the treatment of the jews. I mean in Britain in my school we learned about the causes the rise of Nazi Germany, the Phony war, the Battle of France, Dunkirk evacuation, the war in Africa, the battle of Britain, D Day and finely Burma and the Burma Railway.

Also quick question to people who dont live in England Australia New Zealand are you taught about the conflict in Burma? just asking because its not normaly talked about when it comes to topics about WW2

 

[Steppin Razor]

There's a lot of heavy praise in that trailer, I expect good things from this. Well... good in a film making sense, not the actual Rape of Nanking.

Oh, I don't know about. I've heard that about half the people involved enjoyed the rape of Nanking. Sorta like how statistics show that 50% of all people enjoy date rape.
[small]Hurr hurr I'm so funny.[/small]

OT - I knew of the massacre, but only an estimated death toll and summary, not so many details. After reading more online, I feel disgusted. I will never cease to be amazed by the things we will do to one another, in a negative manner of course.

Eh, man's willingness to inflict pain and suffering upon his fellow man is pretty fascinating in a morbid sense.

On topic
Uhh.... I forgot exactly what I was going to say while I was trying to slip in a date rape joke >.>
Something about me knowing basic details about this topic, but nothing in-depth.

 

[emeraldrafael]

snip

is this also called the rape of nanking, or am I thinking of another city entirely?

OT: I wouldnt say there's ignorance. Like i said, I may be thining of another city entirely, but I rmemeber learning about nanking in history class, and how horrible it was. besides, I'm sure the chinese dont know much about our own massacres (speaking as an American of the west), such as the way we pretty much laid waste to the native people, and the way the government tried to systematically destroy the mormons before they could get off the ground. But I guess would talk about it for a day, maybe sum up what it was like and pick some of the top massacres to get the overall view of the war outside America's view (again, speaking as an American), and more from people who lived closer where the japanese landing on your beach over night was a very real and terrifying possibility.

Should Japan admit it? yeah, they should. I mean, what can you do, it was war, thats what you do. it goes back to what i said in another thread, i dont get all this humanity that goes about in war today. personally, if I fought a war as a general, I'd fire/carpet bomb an entire place, civilians be damned, cause that means that war will end quicker. The winner writes the rules, and right now, I dont think japan would have much to worry about besides maybe monetary compensation and any of the high ranking guys still alive standing trial (Though I doubt it. I dont think this would get the ire Nazis did. Just because japan and China have always disliked each other, and China was in something of an open war, while the jews were the innocents).

Should descendents be punished? of course not. You odnt hold people to the sins of their forefathers. Thats like saying we should punish every child and/or grandchild of german soldiers. What good would it honestly do, other then bring up more hate?

EDIT: also, most japanese admit they did something. its just the officials, and of course tehy will, they want their freaking jobs.

 

[OneOfTheMichael's]

Isn't it spelled Nanking? But wow... i didn't really know of that but it's still a horrible thing.
fingers crossed it doesn't happen again, to anyone at all.

 

[Capt. Crankypants]

Oh yes. Gladly, this sort of thing is taught in (at least my school's...) Modern History classes. We learned of it as the 'Rape of Nanking/Nanjing', and that's what it's stuck with me as.

 

[Johanthemonster666]

I knew from the title that this thread was going to get out of hand...

The Japanese slaughtered thousands by machine gun, bayonet, sword, chemical/biological weapons and starvation. If you're going to reduce it to numbers (which I hate in these arguments, as they are meaningless when discussing human rights violations and brutality) more people died at the hands of the Japanese occupation forces in China, Korea, The Philippines, and other occupied islands than were killed by the two atomic bombs.

The civilian Japanese government made a deal early on with the U.S that they would surrender Minister Tojo and all the other military ultra-nationalists government leaders in exchange for the emperor's hands being washed of war crimes and violations of the Geneva convention.


The atomic bombs dropped by the U.S were quite horrific, but do not excuse these crimes and many of the people responsible beneath the top most people (who were executed or imprisoned) got away with it because they destroyed a lot of evidence of the Japanese biological warfare experiments on POWs and Chinese civilians. Many of these individuals were listed as monkeys and other animals to further cover up the biological warfare testing section's activities 9and to reflect the militant imperialist ideology that all prisoners and civilians that were not of Japanese origins were so inferior that they were to be considered animals).

Again Escapist, intellectualizing and making excuses does not remove blame and responsibility where it is due and the Japanese military and government were and a not removed from responsibility. The U.S sends delegates every year to commemorate the victims of the atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki;Germany has compensated and continues to support victims of the Holocaust (all of them) and teaches it's youth about the horrors of the Nazi regime uncensored.The Japanese on the other hand, have only offered vague and frankly half-assed apologies for the imperial government's occupation, oppression, humiliation and mass murder of the people's under it's rule in Korea, China, Vietnam, the Philippines and so on.

Edit: The Japanese education system DOES NOT teach Japanese youth about what happened because it wishes for them to forget, and clueless wonder why China and Korea continue to resent their peaceful and non-nuclear/confrontational nation.