Poll: There are only 2 genders....right?

[Phlap]

From a biological standpoint, there are 2 sexes. One with 2 X chromosomes, and 1 with an X and a Y.

If someone identifies as a man or a woman, regardless of their biological sex, I'll respect that, and refer to them as he or she as per their preference. I'll even go a step further and add that if they don't feel comfortable fully identifying with either sex, that's OK with me too. (Not that I believe anyone needs my approval.)

From a Tumblr standpoint, there are more genders than there are Pokémon.

I will not take anyone seriously if they start referring to themselves using "genders" they've just made up on the spot, or start issuing me a list of "Fe/Fi/Fo/Fum" pronouns to use. The fact that I'm starting to see this kind of thing pop up in actual classes at university worries me.

This sort of thing didn't exist 10 years ago, and it's just being pulled out of thin air by people with nothing better to do with their time than invent nonsense on the internet to make themselves seem interesting.

I try to be tolerant and understanding, I really do. But I draw the line at "Magigender" and other similar terms invented by over-imaginative teenagers.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

From a biological standpoint, there are 2 sexes. One with 2 X chromosomes, and 1 with an X and a Y.

If someone identifies as a man or a woman, regardless of their biological sex, I'll respect that, and refer to them as he or she as per their preference. I'll even go a step further and add that if they don't feel comfortable fully identifying with either sex, that's OK with me too. (Not that I believe anyone needs my approval.)

From a Tumblr standpoint, there are more genders than there are Pokémon.

I will not take anyone seriously if they start referring to themselves using "genders" they've just made up on the spot, or start issuing me a list of "Fe/Fi/Fo/Fum" pronouns to use. The fact that I'm starting to see this kind of thing pop up in actual classes at university worries me.

This sort of thing didn't exist 10 years ago, and it's just being pulled out of thin air by people with nothing better to do with their time than invent nonsense on the internet to make themselves seem interesting.

I try to be tolerant and understanding, I really do. But I draw the line at "Magigender" and other similar terms invented by over-imaginative teenagers.

On that last point I'm inclined to agree. Varied and fluid gender identities are one thing, and they cover any reasonable identities. But when it comes to something like wanting random pronouns, and to be identified by something that has no referential basis... That actually damages the transgender community, and it makes us look bad and crazy.

Every person like you who at least tries to understand, respects our wishes, and at very least tolerates if not accepts us for who we are, it... Restores a bit of my faith in humanity, and helps me write off the intolerant and ignorant people that seem to be around so much.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

I have always been unsure about this idea of other genders. Like what exactly is gender without any reference to one's body supposed to even be? I can understand feeling that one's body should be of the opposite sex and thus saying one is of another gender. But outside of feeling suited to a specific sex, what is gender supposed to be? I can even get how gender fluid etc makes sense in this. But what is anything utterly outside of male and female supposed to mean? For myself gender means nothing except that I'm comfortable in my male body. It doesn't mean to me that I have certain traits beyond that. Like I could like wearing dresses and looking female (I don't but hypothetical), but so long as I'm fine with my body I don't see how I'd be anything but male because male doesn't mean 'wants to look manly' or any such thing

 

[Hagi]

Ah the color analogy is actually a applicable one here! You see the red and blue colors, but you're essentially ignoring the yellow, the green, the purple, the brown, and all the other colors of the spectrum. It's like they say, not everything is black and white, there are plenty of shades of grey, and all sorts of other colors. Hence why the rainbow analogy is often made when it comes to gender identity and sexuality.

I'll clarify by talking about cisgender as the standard, while it is the standard because the vast majority of people fall into male/man, or female/woman. So that's the standard of the binary, but if you deviate from that, you're suddenly outside the binary. Think of it not as a graph but as a sphere, where cisgender male and cisgender female represent the north and south poles, everyone else falls into neither pole and somewhere inside the rest of the sphere. I hope that clears up my position.

You're still left with two defining poles. Male and female.

There's no third pole in your story.

Which is my point.

I get that male/female as simple, restrictive, mutually exclusive concepts are insufficient to describe human gender. But that's just not how I see male/female. To me, they're complex, dynamic concepts that can be expressed in many different ways and can coexist in the same person. And, in that form, I think they're sufficient to describe human gender and have not seen, read about or heard about anything that'd require a third concept to be introduced.

 

[Olas]

People here are saying that sex is a biology thing, while gender is a cultural thing, but it's still a cultural thing based on biology.

In roughly the same way a movie like Rudy or The Amityville Horror is "based on" a true story, perhaps.

What's that supposed to mean?

It means that just as a movie can plausibly claim to be "based on a true story" with a bare minimum of factors having actually occurred in real life (there was a guy named Rudy who played in a Notre Dame football game; there is a house in Amityville), cultural gender definitions can be claimed as "based on biology" from very minimal, broad standards (a tendency towards different muscle distribution, capability of childbirth).

And both tend to be claimed for manipulative reasons, movies because being "based on a true story" drums up more interest than its own merits, and genders being tied to biology in order to claim their essentialist status. Not accusing you of this, of course, but "biology" tends to be claimed by people who believe it to be an equal or near-equal to culture as an influence on gender, while either not realizing or ignoring that even the definitions of "femininity" and "masculinity" vary widely depending on the time period and group of people examined.

In other words, it's technically true, but doesn't say nearly as much as it's trying to imply.

I think you're bringing up gender politics that isn't really part of my original point. All I was saying was that our concept of gender very clearly has it's roots in the biology of sex, not something else. So to say that biology is irrelevant seems like a stretch.

There are lots of dichotomies we can apply to people that aren't based in sex, like introversion/extroversion, pessimistic/optimistic, timid/courageous. To say that the concepts of femininity and masculinity are equal to these in their influence from sex, I think we can agree, is intellectually dishonest. The fact that the cultural implications of these ideas are fluid doesn't alter the fact that their basis is essentially sexual.

I find the movie comparison a bit inadequate, simply because there we're talking about a very specific story where manipulating essential details can completely alter the meaning. Whereas with gender and sex, or at least gender, we're talking about a notion that is vague by nature and has never been presumed to be perfectly 1:1 with it's source. The notion that men can act girlish, and that women can act manly is as old as recorded history.

 

[Padwolf]

I have no strong opinion one way or the other. Nah, I just accept people are who they are these days. But yes, I guess there are 2 different sexes.

 

[AgedGrunt]

"Man" and "woman" are words humans invented to describe certain groups of people.

Man and woman are words used to define matured human males and females. Animals aren't called men and women; they can have their own names. The nouns are used to distinguish creatures by their sex. Unlike them, what humans have done is advance technology, allowing people to change what we see as identity. Doesn't mean our words were invented for any different purpose than that of other species; it's about biology.

But we have defined what manhood and womanhood look like. These are superficial things and personality traits that anyone can change. But biology doesn't change, so that's why there's discussion; no trans person has a complete sex transition because that's currently impossible. Until there's anatomical conversion, there will be problems in thinking of biology as a fluid thing we can change, like hair color.

You can be biologically essentialist about this if you want, but you have to understand that "man" and "woman" as words and concepts carry far much more weight than just "was born with a penis/was born with a vagina". It'd be disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

I think most people understand there's far more to man and woman than biology. What I don't think enough people understand is that, while there's a lot of stuff that doesn't have to be gendered (e.g. careers, hobbies), anatomy doesn't work the same.

 

[Politrukk]

From a biological standpoint, there are 2 sexes. One with 2 X chromosomes, and 1 with an X and a Y.

If someone identifies as a man or a woman, regardless of their biological sex, I'll respect that, and refer to them as he or she as per their preference. I'll even go a step further and add that if they don't feel comfortable fully identifying with either sex, that's OK with me too. (Not that I believe anyone needs my approval.)

From a Tumblr standpoint, there are more genders than there are Pokémon.

I will not take anyone seriously if they start referring to themselves using "genders" they've just made up on the spot, or start issuing me a list of "Fe/Fi/Fo/Fum" pronouns to use. The fact that I'm starting to see this kind of thing pop up in actual classes at university worries me.

This sort of thing didn't exist 10 years ago, and it's just being pulled out of thin air by people with nothing better to do with their time than invent nonsense on the internet to make themselves seem interesting.

I try to be tolerant and understanding, I really do. But I draw the line at "Magigender" and other similar terms invented by over-imaginative teenagers.

On that last point I'm inclined to agree. Varied and fluid gender identities are one thing, and they cover any reasonable identities. But when it comes to something like wanting random pronouns, and to be identified by something that has no referential basis... That actually damages the transgender community, and it makes us look bad and crazy.

Every person like you who at least tries to understand, respects our wishes, and at very least tolerates if not accepts us for who we are, it... Restores a bit of my faith in humanity, and helps me write off the intolerant and ignorant people that seem to be around so much.

This sounds like a jab at me combined with your earlier response although I'm very accepting of the concepts to a limited boundary (I draw my lines at gender fluid, the rest was just a genuine question to get the discussion going and learn about the views others have).

 

[Rogue Trooper]

Yeah a human being can only either be male or female. Sex and gender are the same thing.

 

[Yan007]

There are only 2 genders/sex (and a possible 3rd when genes don't do what they were supposed to).

I don't care if you think you're a man/woman/puppy/pokemon/supergendered in a man/woman's body. If you look male I'll treat you like a man, if you look female I'll treat you like a girl. If you look like a man who tries to be a woman I'll treat you like a man (just extrapolate from that for all possible permutations).

I'm not going to be rude and call you "the fag", but I won't go out of my way to modify my speech unless it feels natural to call you a woman/man because you really look like one.

Still, the bottom line is that I don't really care, but will avoid interaction with trans people outside a professional setting because their presence makes me feel awkward and I'm tired of being told how to talk in their presence. Oddly enough, I do have gay friends, but you wouldn't know it because they don't define their sexual orientation as what defines them in social settings.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

From a biological standpoint, there are 2 sexes. One with 2 X chromosomes, and 1 with an X and a Y.

If someone identifies as a man or a woman, regardless of their biological sex, I'll respect that, and refer to them as he or she as per their preference. I'll even go a step further and add that if they don't feel comfortable fully identifying with either sex, that's OK with me too. (Not that I believe anyone needs my approval.)

From a Tumblr standpoint, there are more genders than there are Pokémon.

I will not take anyone seriously if they start referring to themselves using "genders" they've just made up on the spot, or start issuing me a list of "Fe/Fi/Fo/Fum" pronouns to use. The fact that I'm starting to see this kind of thing pop up in actual classes at university worries me.

This sort of thing didn't exist 10 years ago, and it's just being pulled out of thin air by people with nothing better to do with their time than invent nonsense on the internet to make themselves seem interesting.

I try to be tolerant and understanding, I really do. But I draw the line at "Magigender" and other similar terms invented by over-imaginative teenagers.

On that last point I'm inclined to agree. Varied and fluid gender identities are one thing, and they cover any reasonable identities. But when it comes to something like wanting random pronouns, and to be identified by something that has no referential basis... That actually damages the transgender community, and it makes us look bad and crazy.

Every person like you who at least tries to understand, respects our wishes, and at very least tolerates if not accepts us for who we are, it... Restores a bit of my faith in humanity, and helps me write off the intolerant and ignorant people that seem to be around so much.

This sounds like a jab at me combined with your earlier response although I'm very accepting of the concepts to a limited boundary (I draw my lines at gender fluid, the rest was just a genuine question to get the discussion going and learn about the views others have).

That's not how I intended it. I'm pretty open to established gender identities that are in the nebula of transgenderism including agender, and possibly outside the established assuming it's reasonable. What I mean is use of absurd pronouns. I can deal with using they for example in the singular. For genderfluid and genderqueer identities personally I've found them to be laid back about pronoun use generally, though I'll match the pronoun used for them to how they're presenting. To be perfectly honest genderfluid people don't flip gender identity every few minutes, or hours, that's being schizophrenic, but more like on a basis more like a day, several days, a week, or weeks. At any rate, what I was getting at is that I appreciate at least an effort to be understanding and tolerant from people in the context of transgender people in general. That is as opposed to being strict to the biological to the point of being hurtful and stubborn for whatever reason.

 

[Dizchu]

I think most people understand there's far more to man and woman than biology. What I don't think enough people understand is that, while there's a lot of stuff that doesn't have to be gendered (e.g. careers, hobbies), anatomy doesn't work the same.

I suppose all I can really do is ask you to see it from their perspective. Imagine if you were the same as you are now, but everyone treated you as if you were of the opposite sex. Wouldn't that drive you crazy? Would you continue to be yourself, despite the dismissal of those around you or would you pretend to be that other gender just to appease them? If someone of one sex appears indistinguishably as someone of another, why is it anyone's business which chromosomes they have or even what genitals they have? I don't know about you but I don't see a lot of genitalia when I go outside, people tend to wear clothes.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

There are only 2 genders/sex (and a possible 3rd when genes don't do what they were supposed to).

I don't care if you think you're a man/woman/puppy/pokemon/supergendered in a man/woman's body. If you look male I'll treat you like a man, if you look female I'll treat you like a girl. If you look like a man who tries to be a woman I'll treat you like a man (just extrapolate from that for all possible permutations).

I'm not going to be rude and call you "the fag", but I won't go out of my way to modify my speech unless it feels natural to call you a woman/man because you really look like one.

Still, the bottom line is that I don't really care, but will avoid interaction with trans people outside a professional setting because their presence makes me feel awkward and I'm tired of being told how to talk in their presence. Oddly enough, I do have gay friends, but you wouldn't know it because they don't define their sexual orientation as what defines them in social settings.

Sexuality doesn't show, gender presentation does, also linking transgender with otherkin is rather insulting. Also a lot of transgender people don't pass when starting transition, that doesn't make a transwoman any less of a woman just because she doesn't pass, same goes for a transman still being a man. Also with a trans people battle depression due to non-acceptance and out right hostility, it's possible for someone in that situation to be just one more misgendering away from suicide. You're not being told what to say... It's a request for understanding and to do something that won't make someone feel worse about themselves.

 

[Yan007]

There are only 2 genders/sex (and a possible 3rd when genes don't do what they were supposed to).

I don't care if you think you're a man/woman/puppy/pokemon/supergendered in a man/woman's body. If you look male I'll treat you like a man, if you look female I'll treat you like a girl. If you look like a man who tries to be a woman I'll treat you like a man (just extrapolate from that for all possible permutations).

I'm not going to be rude and call you "the fag", but I won't go out of my way to modify my speech unless it feels natural to call you a woman/man because you really look like one.

Still, the bottom line is that I don't really care, but will avoid interaction with trans people outside a professional setting because their presence makes me feel awkward and I'm tired of being told how to talk in their presence. Oddly enough, I do have gay friends, but you wouldn't know it because they don't define their sexual orientation as what defines them in social settings.

Sexuality doesn't show, gender presentation does, also linking transgender with otherkin is rather insulting. Also a lot of transgender people don't pass when starting transition, that doesn't make a transwoman any less of a woman just because she doesn't pass, same goes for a transman still being a man. Also with a trans people battle depression due to non-acceptance and out right hostility, it's possible for someone in that situation to be just one more misgendering away from suicide. You're not being told what to say... It's a request for understanding and to do something that won't make someone feel worse about themselves.

Look, what I mean is beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you want to call yourself a woman and you were born a man I don't care, but don't expect me to live my life as if your choice was mine and to naturally refer to you as your new gender if you can't cross the uncanny valley effect. I also consider myself a very tolerant and accepting individual. That is, I tolerate and accept that some want to do things that I do not like and I let them be and alone without interfering with their choices or their life. Eventually, there will come a time when trans people are considered part of the norm and people like me won't exist anymore. As you wish to have people change, also understand that some people don't want to change but are willing to leave you alone and in peace and even fight for your right to live in peace if need be. As I often go out to fetish/BDSM events in Montreal, I found my live-and-let-live attitude good enough.

A few things too:

1- I don't know what's different between transgenders and otherkins tbh. One is being born with the wrong gender, the other the wrong race. I'm sure your assertion that being an otherkin is insulting would be an insult to them. Reminds me of a few gay people who came to my high school for a conference who were telling us being gay was just as ok as being straight, but that bi-sexual people are disgusting because they only think about sex (their words, not mine).

2- I know suicide very well. Many of my friends were driven to suicide post-divorce, many after losing their jobs, home, wife, children, mostly in that order. They had no support from the system that labelled them as deadbeats and their only way out of a life of indentured servitude was suicide. I myself was one jump away from suicide after being thrown out of my home by my ex on Xmas Eve for not having enough money to get her an iPad after I had sold almost everything I owned to afford rent and being able to put food on the table for her and her son (from another man, might I add). After losing everything and deciding to kill myself, I decided to live for myself instead.

2b- I don't use threats of suicide when I argue and usually won't tell anyone in a conversation because this is not a logical argument. People have thousands of reasons to kill themselves every single day and if you push it to the extreme, living your own life peacefully probably pushed some weirdos to kill themselves because they worship Lord Chaos and can't bear a (somewhat) peaceful society. I absolutely refuse any part of responsibility for any person's suicide for me not liking their life choices and refusing to associate with them.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Look, what I mean is beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you want to call yourself a woman and you were born a man I don't care, but don't expect me to live my life as if your choice was mine and to naturally refer to you as your new gender if you can't cross the uncanny valley effect. I also consider myself a very tolerant and accepting individual. That is, I tolerate and accept that some want to do things that I do not like and I let them be and alone without interfering with their choices or their life. Eventually, there will come a time when trans people are considered part of the norm and people like me won't exist anymore. As you wish to have people change, also understand that some people don't want to change but are willing to leave you alone and in peace and even fight for your right to live in peace if need be. As I often go out to fetish/BDSM events in Montreal, I found my live-and-let-live attitude good enough.

That's all well and fine, so fair enough. But remember that gender identity in a gender dysphoric person is tied to self esteem, something we generally have very little of, especially if we don't pass.

A few things too:

1- I don't know what's different between transgenders and otherkins tbh. One is being born with the wrong gender, the other the wrong race. I'm sure your assertion that being an otherkin is insulting would be an insult to them. Reminds me of a few gay people who came to my high school for a conference who were telling us being gay was just as ok as being straight, but that bi-sexual people are disgusting because they only think about sex (their words, not mine).

That's alright. Well aside from actual neruo science that links transgender people with the gender they identify as, rather than their birth sex is one thing. As far as I know no such distinction like that with otherkin. I know some thinking about it more, and they also don't usually make much of an assertion about their identity as an animal or mythical creature, it's more a convention and behind closed doors thing. If someone walks up to me in a fur suit, makes an animal noise and expects me to pet them though, I'll be a little alienated, unless it's someone I know well. Also I've had gays give me the line; "there is no such thing a bisexual, you're either gay straight or lying." So I know how you feel

2- I know suicide very well. Many of my friends were driven to suicide post-divorce, many after losing their jobs, home, wife, children, mostly in that order. They had no support from the system that labelled them as deadbeats and their only way out of a life of indentured servitude was suicide. I myself was one jump away from suicide after being thrown out of my home by my ex on Xmas Eve for not having enough money to get her an iPad after I had sold almost everything I owned to afford rent and being able to put food on the table for her and her son (from another man, might I add). After losing everything and deciding to kill myself, I decided to live for myself instead.

I've had my fair share of friends have crises with suicide, most of them were trans, so it's a remarkably difficult and sensitive thing for me that really does hit home. In the case of trans people it was because their life was made so miserable by everyone around them, and transgender people, due to emotional abuse and being denied transition, are at extreme risk of suicide. I'm lucky, I've had it really easy, with accepting family members and friends for the most part, and I've never been abused physically for being trans. Addressing that last part, that woman deserves any and all scorn humanity can throw on her, seriously you give up everything to provide, and she does something that petty... Unforgivable. It's good you came out of it though.

2b- I don't use threats of suicide when I argue and usually won't tell anyone in a conversation because this is not a logical argument. People have thousands of reasons to kill themselves every single day and if you push it to the extreme, living your own life peacefully probably pushed some weirdos to kill themselves because they worship Lord Chaos and can't bear a (somewhat) peaceful society. I absolutely refuse any part of responsibility for any person's suicide for me not liking their life choices and refusing to associate with them.

It's not so much a threat as a statement of how dire the situation is more often than not. I'm not kidding when I say this: Most trans people who come out before age 20 are met with violence, rape, emotional abuse, being denied treatment, being forced into corrective behaviour therapy camps, death threats, and often enough actually getting murdered. This extends not only to friends and family, who our most crucial support structure, especially when we're so alienated living in our own bodies, but it's done on a societal level too. Mix that with having low self esteem for not being able to be the person we want to be, to act the way we want, and having so little acceptance. It comes to the point for many that death is the only option, there are no others, zip, zilch. I'm not asking you to take responsibility for some one committing suicide because you don't accept, or even tolerate them. That wasn't actually my intention, but I was probably too blunt to get that across, for that I apologize. What I am asking is that you first consider how your attitude could negatively impact someone if you're forced to interact with them, I mean that's just common decency after all.

 

[Yan007]

That sounds fair enough. You made good decent points. I'll try to be more considerate although I refuse to verse into the new pronouns.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

That sounds fair enough. You made good decent points. I'll try to be more considerate although I refuse to verse into the new pronouns.

I honestly wouldn't expect that of anyone. In the English language we have binary male and female pronouns, and in all fairness they're really the only ones we can reasonably expect to have used. Hopefully having the correct ones used for us individually as much as possible.

 

[Danny Ocean]

This is my opinion obviously, but what do you guys think?

And can someone even explain to me what in the world qualifies something to be a new gender outside of biology?

I was going to act all exasperated that this is still such a hard concept for people to grasp, but then I figured that because these threads just don't stop coming, it must just not be a very intuitive idea. Which is understandable, when you think about it. Anyway...

"Sex" is a metaphysical attribute[footnote]Some would argue Social attribute[/footnote] which depends entirely upon sex-specific chromosomes: the Xs and Ys. For the most part, humans are reproduced with one of only two combinations: XX, and XY. However, there are also a significant number of humans reproduced with other combinations, such as just X, just Y, XXX, XXY, XYY, and so on. Of these, not all are able to function healthily as human beings, but many are. As such, they are equally 'valid' combinations of sex chromosomes and should be considered as just another variety of human.

"Gender" is a social attribute which can depend on anything. It is not present in every culture, and is not a biologically necessary feature of human societies. In many contemporary dominant cultures (including, probably, yours), it is primarily determined by a set of apparent phenotypical characteristics which only partly reflect sexual differences. In our society, there are only really two accepted genders: "Man" and "Woman", often conflated with "Male" and "Female" (see below). However, this is not the case in all cultures around the world or across time as, as mentioned, gender is not a necessary feature of human nature. In some cultures there are 3, 4, 5, or even more genders determined by various characteristics which can include features as arbitrary as what month you were born in, or where. Much like how we associate pink with femininity or blue with masculinity.

Of course, those people wouldn't call those characteristics arbitrary. Much as we don't call sexual characteristics, or other social characteristics, arbitrary in their determination of Gender.

But they are, really. We massively overplay physical differences between genders. Even the biggest, baddest, most aggressive, most manly man, when compared to the smallest, daintiest, kindest, most womanly woman, is still like 99.99% the same on the genetic and structural level, yet these tiny differences are used to justify radically divergent behaviour and treatment. Ex: The Draft. Women aren't so lacking in strength and stamina compared to men that they couldn't make good conscripts. Especially now the ability to kill someone only requires the ability to lift and aim a 2-3kg gun. Swords have always been pretty light, too. So why not draft them?

The Aliens watching us must be laughing.


Fundamentally there's no reason for things like this to be the way they are, even though it seems to many, right now, like it's the only way things could be. It's simply the result of ignorance. That's why the two terms are conflated so regularly.

It's like that story: Two young fish are swimming along, enjoying their day. An older fish swims by and says to them, "Morning! How's the water?" And the two young fish swim on for a bit before one turns to the other and asks...

"What the hell is water?"

 

[Dismal purple]

Well I read this article a while ago.
http://capone.mtsu.edu/phollowa/5sexes.html
But really it just describes different variations of male and female.

Biologically, there are only two sexes and a few rare individuals who come out somewhere in between. Gender is cultural though and while traditionally there are only two genders in Western society, other societies have a third, such as the Hijra [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)] of South Asia. So I'd say it depends on your culture, personally if people want to identify as a third gender then it's none of my business.

Hirjas are literally just transsexuals as seen through the cultural lens of south asia.