Poll: There are only 2 genders....right?

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I'm a woman. I dress feminine but all my hobbies are masculine, I don't get along with girly girls or macho men. I tend to be drawn to tall aggressive women & timid feminine looking men, but I'm not a sexual person. I guess I'm more of an anti-gender person. I suppose it's the same thing as Genderfluid? Not sure...

Genderfluid is basically applicable to people who have no set gender identity, they go from one to the other depending on what they feel when they wake up in the morning. Some days/weeks/months/whatever they feel female, others they feel male, and others they feel neither. I'd kind of say your post-gender, or just have a preference for people who don't conform to the gender rules.

 

[Mong0]

As far as I'm concerned, there are only 2 genders; both are biological classifications regarding the reproductive capabilities and its associated genes of an individual organism. I also don't want to play pretend with people who don't like their sex.

Yes because gender dysphoria isn't a real thing and transgender people don't have a valid expectation to be refered to by gender pronouns that fit them and their identity best. Wait... That's the opposite of the truth, and it's hurtful to transgender people. Not only that, but saying "playing pretend with people who don't like their sex" is both insulting and condecending. Seriously look at what the person before you posted...

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder, not a reflection of reality. People are what they physically are, whether they like it or not. I'm under no obligation to lie for anyone, and care very little about the feelings of anyone who would demand that I do so.

The DSM-V physician's desk reference manual does not call gender dysphoria a mental disorder or mental illness, and neither does any other valid psychological data. So right there you're absolutely incorrect. Also if I came up and misgendered you intentionally you'd be angry with me, so how is it any different for a trans person, especially when it takes no real effort on your part? It's not, and if you expect me to respect your feelings, it's a two way street, respect, you don't get yours with out giving back in kind. So your argument doesn't hold water.

Registered to say that I strongly agree with this guy.

This is a mental disorder and comes entirely down to perception. Well, my perception is different and I do not see a 3rd+ gender, just as I do not see the body of christ in a cracker.

You want to start a dumb cult? Sure, go ahead.
You want the freedom to do that? Sure, you already have it.
You want to wear a crazy hat at work to show your faith? Go for it.
You want me to stat saying your hat is actually your hair? Well now sadly it has become about me, and not you, and I am gonna say no.

Except that gender dysphoria is not a mental disorder or mental illness, no psychiatrist, psychologist, or therapist of any kind will agree with that is a disorder either. At least none who didn't get their diploma out of a cracker jack box.

Also non-sequitur argument is non-sequitur, you're not being asked to call a hat hair, you're being asked to use comfortable gender pronouns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder
"Gender identity disorder is classified as a medical disorder by the ICD-10 CM[7] and DSM-5 (called gender dysphoria).[8]"

Even were it not, it is still a disorder that afflicts the mind, causing one's feelings to detach from reality, so my point would still stand. Regarding your second point, you're assuming that the transgendered's desired gender is the actual gender, which is what I disagree with in the first place. Also, if you just walked up to me and misgendered me, I'd probably just be curious and a bit amused.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder
"Gender identity disorder is classified as a medical disorder by the ICD-10 CM[7] and DSM-5 (called gender dysphoria).[8]"

Even were it not, it is still a disorder that afflicts the mind, causing one's feelings to detach from reality, so my point would still stand. Regarding your second point, you're assuming that the transgendered's desired gender is the actual gender, which is what I disagree with in the first place. Also, if you just walked up to me and misgendered me, I'd probably just be curious and a bit amused.

Right there in that wikipedia article it says medical disorder not mental disorder which was not changed from the DSM-IV where it states: "The DSM-IV-TR diagnostic component of distress is not inherent in the cross-gender identity; rather, it is related to social rejection and discrimination suffered by the individual. Dr. Darryl Hill insists that GID is not a mental disorder, but rather that the diagnostic criteria reflect psychological distress in children that occurs when parents and others have trouble relating to their child's gender variance. Transgender people have often been harassed, socially excluded, and subjected to discrimination, abuse and violence, including murder."

So that argument just fell flat. Both are available on the the article you linked too.

"My opinion invalidates your self expression" is an argument that shows no respect for the other person, or in other words not an argument that holds water if you expect any basic respect from the other person.

Also if you were disrespecting me by misgendering me and I did the same to you, you'd take offense with it rather quickly, because I wouldn't be stopping until you did.

 

[cikame]

If a man wants to be a woman, that's fine, i'll call them a woman, but he's still a man and always will be. There are only two genders and you will always be what you were born to be.

Animals don't have this confusion, and all we are are intelligent animals.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

So... My answer to the question is twofold. Under strict definition of the term, there are three manifestations of sexual characteristics in the human animal; male, female, intersex.

To those of you arguing the XX XY defintion, I will respectfully point out that there are in fact five criteria used to determine if a person is male or female:

1) The number and type of chromosomes
2) The type of gonads (sexual reproduction organs - testes or ovaries)
3) The sex hormones produced (the ratio of testosterone to estrogen)
4) Internal reproductive anatomy
5) External genitalia

People in whom all five of these critera are not all male or all female at birth are considered 'intersex'.

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex )


Personally, I tend to group people in my head into five particular sexual groups; male, female, female-presenting intersex, male presenting intersex, and neutral/androgenous/both. Again, this is just my personal perspective. It has nothing to do with science, social norms or gender representation.

Seems like an arbitrary list, actually.

I have Klinefelter's (XXY), low testosterone, all that jazz, partial breast growth when I was 16, REALLY awkward body issues as a kid that really didn't help coming out to my parents ... I don't consider myself intersex. For the majority of people who would be on that list would be overwhelmingly KS people like me.

Also how does the number of sex chromosomes determine sex? Are we talking barr bodies included, or other things I'm failing to take into account? If they mean it to mean; "You have 47 or more chromosomes, you are intersex."

Which seems like a pretty stupid thing to say to someone with Klinefelter's who actually manages to produce offspring via surgery to extract viable sperm and artificially inseminate an ovum from the mother. How can you be 'between sexes' and produce a baby from your own baby gravy? Basic genetics, the Y still makes a 'male' in most aspects, but the majority of Klinefelter's (XXY, XXXY, XXYY) patients have low testosterone production. Often develop secondary sex characteristics... but the majority of them would still likely call themselves males.

This whole intersex thing seems kinda arbitrary unless self elected.

(Edit) ALso, I identify as genderqueer (genderfluid, specifically, depends of my mood when I wake up) ... so it kinda plays havoc if that initial list is true, and your list is how you see people. Seems much simpler to just treat people as they say they are and present as and call it a day. Also, I feel uncomfortable people thinking of me as intersex when I've never seen myself as intersex. Probably for the same reason I would have trouble with people treating me as male if I don't present male. I would imagine the KS males would not take kindly, in most cases, to not being thought of as males and there's no reason not to either.

(Edit of an Edit) They should also have a sixth criterion on that initial list; Do they consider themselves intersex, male or female? And just have this override EVERYTHNG above.

 

[Mong0]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder
"Gender identity disorder is classified as a medical disorder by the ICD-10 CM[7] and DSM-5 (called gender dysphoria).[8]"

Even were it not, it is still a disorder that afflicts the mind, causing one's feelings to detach from reality, so my point would still stand. Regarding your second point, you're assuming that the transgendered's desired gender is the actual gender, which is what I disagree with in the first place. Also, if you just walked up to me and misgendered me, I'd probably just be curious and a bit amused.

Right there in that wikipedia article it says medical disorder not mental disorder which was not changed from the DSM-IV where it states: "The DSM-IV-TR diagnostic component of distress is not inherent in the cross-gender identity; rather, it is related to social rejection and discrimination suffered by the individual. Dr. Darryl Hill insists that GID is not a mental disorder, but rather that the diagnostic criteria reflect psychological distress in children that occurs when parents and others have trouble relating to their child's gender variance. Transgender people have often been harassed, socially excluded, and subjected to discrimination, abuse and violence, including murder."

So that argument just fell flat. Both are available on the the article you linked too.

"My opinion invalidates your self expression" is an argument that shows no respect for the other person, or in other words not an argument that holds water if you expect any basic respect from the other person.

Also if you were disrespecting me by misgendering me and I did the same to you, you'd take offense with it rather quickly, because I wouldn't be stopping until you did.

I misread medical as mental, I'm actually kind of shocked that it isn't considering they have a mental or personality disorder for every little quirk.
The other half of my point, which has gone unaddressed, is the fact that self perception does not change one's physiology. Neither does sex reassignment surgery, as the body still retains the same sex genes, and there is no creation of reproductive organs. Additionally, sex being the reproductive classification of an animal is a widely accepted definition of the word, not an opinion.

 

[Anti Nudist Cupcake]

I think gender is something we just made up. You have a biological sex. This is a physical, observable trait that has functional meaning. Gender is all in our heads. What your thoughts are have no meaning whatsoever to the universe unless they are translated into practical application that alters nature. We can make up literally anything and just slap a "masculine" or "feminine" label on it. Blue used to be a girl's color a long time ago but switched places with pink, sitting with one knee over the other is considered effeminate in western cultures but not so much in european cultures, leg and facial hair are considered masculine traits even though they are biological traits typical to both women and men, etc.

I think we should live in a world where we can have a dynamic range of tastes and behaviours without having to keep ourselves narrowed down to conforming to any specific identity labels.

 

[Silvanus]

The other half of my point, which has gone unaddressed, is the fact that self perception does not change one's physiology. Neither does sex reassignment surgery, as the body still retains the same sex genes, and there is no creation of reproductive organs.

SRS quite clearly does change physiology; it changes genitalia and the chest shape, among other things. Genes are not all there is to physiology.

Additionally, sex being the reproductive classification of an animal is a widely accepted definition of the word, not an opinion.

Aye, because it holds true for the majority of animals, and is a useful general rule. This doesn't mean we should treat it as absolute. Doing so would discount injured people, or infertile people, from being considered male or female if they couldn't reproduce.

Similarly, notice that documentaries and even papers will characterise animal sexual behaviour by male-female pairings, because that behaviour is typical and a useful general rule. It's also far from absolute, and we shouldn't treat it as such.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I misread medical as mental, I'm actually kind of shocked that it isn't considering they have a mental or personality disorder for every little quirk.
The other half of my point, which has gone unaddressed, is the fact that self perception does not change one's physiology. Neither does sex reassignment surgery, as the body still retains the same sex genes, and there is no creation of reproductive organs. Additionally, sex being the reproductive classification of an animal is a widely accepted definition of the word, not an opinion.

That's right, but; sex is the physical descriptor, gender is the social and mental descriptor. This is why transgender is actually something that exists within humans.

By the way people keep mentioning genetics so I have an interesting thing to add: I have XX male syndrome, or de la Chapelle syndrome, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome] which is actually different from XXY genetics called Klinefelter Syndrome. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome]

 

[Naeo]

Terminological quibbling: sex is not gender.

"Sex"--i.e., biological sex--is generally fairly binary. While it may be a bit of an oversimplification, a male/female dicohotomy accounts for almost everyone if we're only looking at biological sex. Yes, there are some individuals who are hermaphroditic or for whom their sex is unclear, medically (not "I can't instantly tell by looking at them), but male/female generally works here.

"Gender," though, is how people self-identify. Gender refers to a cultural categorization of individuals based on their actions--manner of dress, language, etc--and, yes, often their biological sex. Unlike biological sex, a simple male/female dichotomy just doesn't work here. Some people identify as absolutely, super-duper, all the way male. Some people identify as just regular male. Some people identify as neutral/neither. Some people identify as a third gender. It doesn't strictly need to correlate with their biological sex (see, for instance, the existence of transgendered people, whose gender does not match their biological sex). Gender is an individual trait much like what food or music you like, and because it's an individual psychological/personality/etc trait, it's as variable as people themselves are. So there aren't just 64 genders--there are literally an infinite number of genders. Well, an infinite number of ways someone can identify their gender--as very masculine to very feminine and everything in between (and anything off of that two-pole spectrum), with the parameters for masculine/feminine/etc varying across different cultures. Being a continuous spectrum rather than a binary "male XOR female" situation, there are infinite ways someone can identify their genders.

So, no, there are not two, because gender =/= biological sex.

 

[AwesomeHatMan]

From how I've come to understand gender I would say that there would be over 7,000,000,000 genders, where every human being has their own unique gender and as such defining or referring to genders is pointless.

 

[mrdude2010]

Sex is what chromosomes you have: that's binary. Gender is what your psychological makeup is, and is more fluid.

 

[Zefar]

For me there are just 3. Male, Female and Trans.

Anything other than that I see you whoever claims to be something else that you're an attention whore who is in need of medical help.

Like most of those Otherkins or wolfkin people.

 

[Mong0]

The other half of my point, which has gone unaddressed, is the fact that self perception does not change one's physiology. Neither does sex reassignment surgery, as the body still retains the same sex genes, and there is no creation of reproductive organs.

SRS quite clearly does change physiology; it changes genitalia and the chest shape, among other things. Genes are not all there is to physiology.

There is also more to physiology than superficial form. The shape is the only thing that it changes. Saying that thats enough to change sexes is like spray painting black spots on a white dog and saying you have a Dalmatian.

Additionally, sex being the reproductive classification of an animal is a widely accepted definition of the word, not an opinion.

Aye, because it holds true for the majority of animals, and is a useful general rule. This doesn't mean we should treat it as absolute. Doing so would discount injured people, or infertile people, from being considered male or female if they couldn't reproduce.

Similarly, notice that documentaries and even papers will characterise animal sexual behaviour by male-female pairings, because that behaviour is typical and a useful general rule. It's also far from absolute, and we shouldn't treat it as such.

Infertile people still have their sex organs, usually. Injured people on the other hand, originally had their sex organs at one point, so genetically they're the same. I suppose with certain deformities you would have a point, they do fall outside of the normal definition of the sexes. That said, SRS isn't a deformity, its a self inflicted injury that so happens to heal in the shape of the opposite sex.

 

[Mong0]

I misread medical as mental, I'm actually kind of shocked that it isn't considering they have a mental or personality disorder for every little quirk.
The other half of my point, which has gone unaddressed, is the fact that self perception does not change one's physiology. Neither does sex reassignment surgery, as the body still retains the same sex genes, and there is no creation of reproductive organs. Additionally, sex being the reproductive classification of an animal is a widely accepted definition of the word, not an opinion.

That's right, but; sex is the physical descriptor, gender is the social and mental descriptor. This is why transgender is actually something that exists within humans.

By the way people keep mentioning genetics so I have an interesting thing to add: I have XX male syndrome, or de la Chapelle syndrome, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome] which is actually different from XXY genetics called Klinefelter Syndrome. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome]

I suppose that just means that we're referring to 2 separate concepts when we think of the term gender. Technically, according to merriam webster, gender can also mean sex. It doesn't really matter what its called though, what I care about when I think of how I'm going to relate to a stranger is their biological makeup. How they relate to themselves has no real relevance to me or my life.

 

[Jaeke]

Yep.

End of discussion.

Usually when I go to check the little box labeled "sex" OR "gender" there are only 2 options, not sure what much else there is to argue.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I suppose that just means that we're referring to 2 separate concepts when we think of the term gender. Technically, according to merriam webster, gender can also mean sex. It doesn't really matter what its called though, what I care about when I think of how I'm going to relate to a stranger is their biological makeup. How they relate to themselves has no real relevance to me or my life.

Well think about this. Can you be absolutely sure of what the other person's physical make up is, if they don't tell you? Does it matter if they're not a romantic interest for you? And if you know some one is trans, is it so hard to treat them as they present, rather than the parts they were burdened with at birth?

 

[Azure23]

My favorite thing about this thread (besides from letting me know who not to bother engaging with) is how many people are factually incorrect and unable to let go of ingrained, ethnocentric beliefs from their childhood in favor of actual academic and empiric evidence.

The amount of people claiming that "liberal academia has an agenda so we can't trust anything they say" is also hilarious. "Guys! I heard pharmaceutical companies are giving our children autism, they just want out money. let's not vaccinate and weaken herd immunity and bring back polio, because hey, why the fuck not yeah?" That's honestly how silly some of these people sound.

Fucking hell this thread is not good for my forum health meter but damn, it's so annoying.