Poll: Too easy..

[xbeaker]

I was talking about the first one. I loved that game, but I don't think I ever made it past Death. A good friend of mine has the Japanese version of Dracula X for the TurboDuo. If you really want a punishingly difficult game, see if you can get you hands on that. I think the best of the series was Symphony of the Night, which I believe is the one they have on XBL.

 

[dnv2]

Maybe a lot of them are relatively easy, but I don't see that as a bad thing. Many of us have lives and work to deal with, so we have less spare time. I don't know about you guys, but in this case, I like my games short. Some games take up so much time that it's almost impossible to continue, and thus ever finish the game (if you have a job). Take for example Company Of Heroes... that second Hill mission, where you have to defend the Hill and counter attack the Germans. That mission is ridiculously difficult especially because you're heavily outnumbered ~ 20 to 1, but it's also just not fun to play for points in that one mission. This results in my losing interest because I haven't advanced into that game for weeks, and every time I do try, I fail. And there's not even a "skip level" cheat (if there is, let me know).

Don't get me wrong, I prefer challenge in my games. But if anything prevents me from advancing into the game, be it bad gameplay design or bugs or whatever, I just want to uninstall that shit.

Not to jump on the band wagon here, but you do kind of put across that because you have a life you are too 'Cool' or busy to spend time on games.

Not all gamers who consider themselves to be serious about playing games are lonely, elitist losers who have no other commitments in life and therefore call everyone 'Noobs', (Like a guy I encountered in Zombie Master a mod for HL2)I for one have a fairly active social life, a steady girlfriend, a house to keep up to, a dog, a guinea pig and not to mention my job and my housemate who leaves dirty dishes everywhere!

I still find time to play plenty of games, because it's my main hobby really. I choose to put my spare time into it because it's something I enjoy. You can't comnplain when you find a game too time consuming if you choose to play it in the first place. Plus most games nowadays have save features where you can save wherever you want, I know CoH does.

By the way if you didn't mean it in any derogatory way then fine, sorry for the rant. But do you honestly prefer shorter games? Don't you feel like your wasting your money?

 

[Arbre]

I think FFC's point was that an easier game allows to move through the game faster, which is good when you don't have much time to spend on them.

Harder games are just more demanding, and if you play only one hour, you won't advance as much as you will with an easier game.

I don't think one needs to look farther than that.

Besides, most games can be set to different difficulty levels, based on a middle difficulty level that is more or less universally found nowadays.

An exception would be Ghouls. That one has a middle difficulty level that is really worth the hardest levels in modern games, and the top difficulty is really on for dedicated players (no lifes lolz) or very talented ones.

 

[Andrew Armstrong]

I think there is no reason for this thread to exist. The application of variable difficulty levels selectable by the player has removed all forms of "easy" and "hard" - as long as you can play at a basic level, "easy" should be enough, while "normal" for people who play often and "hard" for those wanting to go the extra mile.

And how hard is Contra, etc., once the game has been played often? Not very hard.

Matters of perception (and rose tinted glasses) show up a lot in the posts here, I'd say difficulty levels go a lot more towards pleasing everyone. Some games still don't include them however, which is a shame.

And anything can be made more difficult. Give the player 1 health unit, and have all the enemies have 1000 health and perfect accuracy. Not much fun though.

 

[Mallus]

Difficulty in games varies, which is the idea. As for the advancing A.I., that takes longer then multipliers or such which is the idea that you can flip something and it suddenly becomes just a lot harder. I do like the Crysis examples though, if only because it is different. Here's a thought, do 'modern' games seem more inconsistent in difficult levels? As mentioned in various other places the difficulty curves seem to be really odd in a lot of games lately. While yes, books for instance have the climax then an ending/epilogue it seems some games are attempting to mimic the idea with having the hardiest parts in the middle areas instead of the end which is rather weird. Others are just completely random as far as I can tell, Halo 3 in some areas is a fairly good example. If you don't have a guide then the skulls turn it into a game of 'what just happened?' as it can do anything from make the difficulty shoot up to the point of an exercise of mind-melting hatred and frustration to the 'grunt birthday party' which has their heads exploding with confetti if I remember correctly.

 

[xenxander]

Now if it was just making the A.I. more intelligent, then that would be more of a fun challenge, rather than a frustrating challenge, and even if it didn't increase an enemy's health, attack, defense, or speed, it could still be an interesting trail fighting against a computer that is about as intelligent as you are.

This has been my major and pretty much only gripe in any game. I don't want the computer to suddenly get a health, economic, AND A.I. increase over me. I'd like the playing field to be level in all ways EXCEPT having the PC use more A.I. power.
when I play Rise of Nations, it's impossible to really get ahead on the highest difficulty, it just becomes a "survive while you can" until you at most get a force to 'finally' start causing some damage.
All I wish for, and it's what I just stated above - do not let the PC "cheat". just give them stronger algorithms to process their decisions and perhaps give them better path-finding abilities but DON'T decrease the handicap for them or make their resources so unbalanced they might as well have infinite.

 

[Force Feedback Codpiece]

I?m not looking down on you. As I said in my above post. I really hate when people pull out the ?Well I have a life? line. It come across as very holier then thou. Which is to say, you looking down on the rest of us, because anyone who likes difficult games must be some loser with no life who sits in his mom?s basement and plays teh hardcorz gamez all day. Whether you intended that way of not, that is how it reads.

I have no problem with easier games, or the people who play them. I don?t exclusively play difficult, long term commitment games. In fact most of my posts in this thread have been about ways to add challenge to games if people are finding them too easy, and defending the modern games. I just wish they would change up how they are made more difficult some times. And I have no problem with you, in fact I find most of your posts to be very intelligent.

No, I didn't intend it that way. English isn't my first language so I apologize if it came across as me looking down on people who prefer difficult games. I don't view those people who play those kind of games as nerds at all. In fact, I consider myself a nerd myself as well, lol.

I was just saying that some people prefer shorter games, nothing more. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with people sitting down for hours with their more "difficult" games either.

Your posts are intelligent too.

 

[Simmage]

Are modern games to easy? No, not really. The reason they put in a difficulty setting is so that people who think it's too easy can get up and make the game interesting. Some modern games are hard, some are easy. It really comes down to how much effort you put into playing that judges the games difficulty.

 

[dnv2]

I think there is no reason for this thread to exist. The application of variable difficulty levels selectable by the player has removed all forms of "easy" and "hard" - as long as you can play at a basic level, "easy" should be enough, while "normal" for people who play often and "hard" for those wanting to go the extra mile.

And how hard is Contra, etc., once the game has been played often? Not very hard.

Matters of perception (and rose tinted glasses) show up a lot in the posts here, I'd say difficulty levels go a lot more towards pleasing everyone. Some games still don't include them however, which is a shame.

And anything can be made more difficult. Give the player 1 health unit, and have all the enemies have 1000 health and perfect accuracy. Not much fun though.

The application of variable difficulty levels is what were actually talking about here. I.E the A.I etc. There's no need to come in and say this thread is pointless just because you dont want to talk about it or whatever.

If it was pointless then I wouldn't have got some many people giving their own views would I?

Furthermore it seems we've come to the conclusion here that 'Variable' difficulty as you call it is'nt enough.

 

[shadow skill]

Meh I don't think modern games easier than the older ones. I just think that as we get older we can apply different tactics to various games.

 

[xbeaker]

I have to disagree with you there shadow skill. Simple test.. go play one of the old games on the nes. Something you have not mastered from before. Even with all of the skill, tactics, and co-ordination most of us have developed over the years I doubt most people could make it through even half of the first Super Mario Bros. on their first try (literally, first try. As in never-played-it-before) Forget about the true killers of the day like Kid Icirus. Where as most people can make it through any modern game in about 15 hours of casual play.

That is the crux if this topic, the overall reduction in difficulty in seeing those end credits.

 

[dnv2]

I have to disagree with you there shadow skill. Simple test.. go play one of the old games on the nes. Something you have not mastered from before. Even with all of the skill, tactics, and co-ordination most of us have developed over the years I doubt most people could make it through even half of the first Super Mario Bros. on their first try (literally, first try. As in never-played-it-before) Forget about the true killers of the day like Kid Icirus. Where as most people can make it through any modern game in about 15 hours of casual play.

That is the crux if this topic, the overall reduction in difficulty in seeing those end credits.

Thank you, again you summed it up for me.

 

[ShmenonPie]

Firstly, you spelt they're wrong in the poll, twice (you put 'there', as in 'there he is').

Secondly, I have to say that some games are total cakewalk, but others are really quite challenging, but the point doesn't really matter, as long as the game is fun. Are you really having fun when you have to repeat the same f***ing level 20 times before you finally manage to pull it off? I don't personally think so. Remember God of War and its 'blades of Hades' level (or something like that)? What a horrible piece of level design that was.

 

[shadow skill]

Xbreaker what you just said is total bull, what you are telling me is that having played had maybe a decade worth of experience would have no effect on a player's ability to get through a game like smb 1? Do you really think that people don't die in modern games even if they take 15 hours to finish? If you have never played a certain type of game before and therefore have no real pre-existing knowledge of how the game probably works it is going to be much more difficult than if you have decades worth of prior experience to draw upon.

The Super Mario Brothers games were some of the first games of their kind if not the first, so how the hell are you as a seven or eight year old kid who is experiencing videogames for the first time going to be able to just blow through the game as though it was not even there?

I used to think Devil May Cry was harder than it really is until I played Ninja Gaiden and finally figured out how to play in NGS, when I picked up DMC again I found it to be a much easier game because I applied modified NGS tactics to DMC and while I still do get rocked I am able to get through the game far more readily than ever before.

Oh and let me bring up halo 3 I put that game on Heroic and I died quite a bit however I can't say that the game was hard, it was more cheap than anything else what with all the endurance matches one has to go through in that game. So really me dying ten or fifteen times in a given spot was not a sign of increased difficulty as it was a sin of increased fatigue since there was a seemingly endless number of enemy waves to deal with and a limited supply of ammo.

Did anyone else notice how the really large flood creatures could take like three or four clips and keep coming but clubbing one that had not be otherwise damaged seemed to kill them instantly?

 

[xbeaker]

Shadow Skill you clearly have missed the point of what I said. No where in my post did I say half a decade of experience would have no effect on a player?s skill. I simply refute your claim that modern games are no harder then older games. I stand by that. You use Halo 3 as an example. Give that game to anyone who has some gaming experience and they could beat the entire campaign in a weekend. Where by the same note if you put an older nes game in front of that same player and it would probably take weeks to get though it.

Yes, as you gain skill in playing games in general are going to get easier. But this is not a question of them getting easier for an individual player. This is about the games getting a bit easier overall. I?m not passing judgment as to whether it is a good or bad thing. Those of you who like the trend towards easier game see to take it as an insult that others think games are getting easier as a whole.

Is Ninja Gaiden Black hard? Hell yeah. But even that cannot compare to the difficulty of some of the controller killers of the past. Save games and infinite lives are a big part of the reason. Yes, people die in modern games. They die a lot. But you just respawn and try it again. It makes for a much easier experience when death?s penalty is a quick load screen and losing 10 minutes of progression. Again, I am not condemning you for liking the more forgiving trend of modern games. But don?t fool yourself into thinking that games today are just as hard as they were in the 80?s

People are asking why anyone would want games to be more difficult. Simple, it is for the sense of accomplishment you get when you conquer it. It used to be a lot of fun to see who could beat what games. When you could knock out Mike Tyson in Punch out you got a certain level of bragging rights. Now days I never asked my friends ?Can you beat??? it is now a question of ?have you beaten??? And even when you aren?t just showing off on the playground there it feels great when you finally click with a game and beat it for the first time. Yeah, it will frustrate a lot of people. It will turn some people off of the game entirely. Some people like that challenge though, and there are very few games that provide it.

 

[Buonarroti1541 [deprecated]]

I'd have to think you guys are just more selective about the games you play then you let on, either that or you're focusing more on current gen games. I can think of several games off the top of my head from last generation that were rather tough, you just had to look for them. An obscure little platformer called Vexx made me want to break my controller, Godhand, the Otogi series, etc. In Ninja Gaiden Black's higher difficulty levels they actually introduced completely different enemies on top of old ones, with better A.I., more health, and multiple boss fights happening simultaneously. As for current gen games, I will admit that many major releases seem a bit easier on default difficulty levels, but there is usually always a way to ramp up the difficulty.

 

[shadow skill]

I say: Games grow easier as we age and continue playing them.

You say:

I have to disagree with you there shadow skill. Simple test.. go play one of the old games on the nes. Something you have not mastered from before. Even with all of the skill, tactics, and co-ordination most of us have developed over the years I doubt most people could make it through even half of the first Super Mario Bros. on their first try (literally, first try. As in never-played-it-before) Forget about the true killers of the day like Kid Icirus. Where as most people can make it through any modern game in about 15 hours of casual play.

That is the crux if this topic, the overall reduction in difficulty in seeing those end credits.

Yet somehow you magically do not discount the fact that you have a wealth of experience playing games of various types and magically I am offended by your flat out ridiculous suggestion that overall difficulty levels have dropped when compared to the bad old days where developers could only have very small environments and had to find a way to make their product last, and therefore resorted to techniques that really only alter the length of the game rather than increase its difficulty. If a game has ten levels and each takes about thirty minutes to finish and you use a no save system and say you die on level four and have to start all over again the only thing that has happened is that the amount of time it will take to finish the game has increased.

If you play MGS games properly the game will be over in about three hours, and by play properly I mean don't get spotted once, don't use health items, don't kill anyone save bosses, don't die/save. Sure its possible to just run through the game getting spotted everywhere etc and beat it, but just because you can does not mean the game is remotely easy.

Your arguments sound like those that people who don't understand how to play Tenchu correctly use to complain about that series of games. Sure the AI isn't exactly genius level but I would love to see people get a perfect score on every level and I do mean every one. Chances are that task won't be very easy for the overwhelming majority of people even with the AI being as "dumb" as it is.

You clearly do not understand what difficulty actually is and believe that how fast you can get to the credits is an indication of the difficulty of a game, yet you want to preach to me about fooling myself, please stop breathing your own air.

 

[dnv2]

Firstly, you spelt they're wrong in the poll, twice (you put 'there', as in 'there he is').

No actually I didn't.

'There' is common slang from the part of the country I'm from for 'They are' or 'They're' so no I never even intended to type what you put. It's how I'd talk normal through speech so it's how I typed it, sorry if this offended you greatly.

Shadow Skill why do you insist on trying to cause an argument when all xbeaker and everyone else did was give an opinion?

 

[shadow skill]

Oh so I'm the bad guy even though Xbreaker has deided to start preaching about the "good old days" implying that I and anyone else who doesn't agree with him is deluding themselves into believing that the games of today are really no easier than the games of twenty years ago.

But don't fool yourself into thinking that games today are just as hard as they were in the 80's

But oh I am starting a fight.... and you did use the wrong word though it is spelled properly.

 

[dnv2]

But oh I am starting a fight.... and you did use the wrong word though it is spelled properly.

Wow I really didn't think people like you came on here. Whatever, I guess there will always be people who just gain some weird pleasure out of being able to argue with anyone and everyone.

Thanks to everybody who has actually contributed to this thread!