Poll: Was ME1 really as good as we remember or was Saren just an idiot antagonist?

renegade7

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The reason is that Saren didn't know that the Conduit was the Citadel, and by the time he found out there was a warrant for his arrest so his whole plan would have failed if he had just shown up at the Citadel. And the Reapers' plan called for absolute subtlety, so having dozens of double agents in place, wouldn't have worked. The reason being that the people in place wouldn't have been nearly as skilled at subterfuge and avoiding detection as him and if they had been caught the whole plan would come apart.

But ME1 was my favorite in the series for its gameplay, much more RPG-ish than the others.

Story was kinda meh though, Saren just wasn't an extremely compelling villain.
 

Gigatoast

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ME1 is still a great game, but it doesn't really hold up to some of the nostalgia induced praising. It's got more problems then people choose to remember, but to be fair, at least it doesn't have StarChild.
 

anthony87

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Man......this thread has really reminded me of how great a villain Saren is. I really must give ME1 another playthrough.
 

Risingblade

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After reading Deception I grew to appreciate Saren a lot more. I really was hoping they'd bring him back somehow.
 

AbstractStream

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I've been replaying ME1 and it's almost as good as I remember. I've been spoiled by the new combat and graphics from ME3, so going back to low res Garrus kind of sucks. Other than that, it's still freaking great. I liked Saren from the start. Never thought he was stupid.
...Kai Leng on the other hand >> But I digress. I know that isn't part of the discussion.
 

viranimus

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ME1s story was practically bad compared to ME2. Ive said this before but, I was kinda shocked because in playing ME1 I was so disinterested with the story I actually did not even have a romance in my playthrough. I didnt look for one, felt no compulsion to look for one. To me thats fairly damning considering the romance issue was a major point of the games controversy, and if I could not be bothered by a major block of content that really says something.
 

DustyDrB

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I can do enough mental gymnastics to overlook that plot hole. So...yes, Mass Effect is really that good. And Saren was a fantastic villain.

Also, because I hate this idea that you can't like all the games: Mass Effect 2 is still my favorite game ever, and Mass Effect 3 was freaking brilliant aside from two flaws (Shepard speaking on his own too much, and the ending).
 

artanis_neravar

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Elamdri said:
So, I recently started a full ME1-ME2-ME3 run to build a new character and I just finished ME1 a few days ago. I was sitting there watching the ending and going...wait a minute.

Because here is the thing. You spend THE ENTIRE GAME hunting Saren. Saren is hunting the Conduit. Saren needs the Conduit to bring back the Reapers. So you're trying to find the Conduit the entire game. But then at the final hour you find out that the Conduit is just a backdoor onto the Citadel and it's the CITADEL that Saren really needs to bring back the Reapers, not the Conduit.

but wait a minute.

Saren was a SPECTRE, an above-the-law Supercop with nearly unlimited power and access on the Citadel. Not only that but he was the BEST of the SPECTREs.

So my question then is why didn't Saren just just have Sovereign and the Geth Fleet just suddenly stream through the Mass Relay while he waltzed up to the Citadel Tower in the Chaos and activated the Citadel Relay? We know that he had Krogan and Asari support, and they already have Citadel access. He could have had a ton of double agents on the Citadel ready to attack on his command. He also was able to sneak Geth onto Noveria and we know the Citadel had a huge security upgrade after the attack, so it's not unreasonable to think he could have snuck Geth onto the Citadel as well.

I mean, if he had done that rather than go attack Eden Prime, then no one would have known he was a villain, Shepard wouldn't have ever been tapped to assemble a crew and likely wouldn't have even been on the Citadel, and the human fleet wouldn't have been standing by to save the Citadel and destroy Sovereign. Hell, the only reason Saren NEEDED the Conduit at all in the first place was because he played his hand in the first 5 minutes of the game and declared himself a villain and got himself banned from the Citadel.

Hell, it seems like the whole story of Mass Effect 1, not to mention even giving Shepard the opportunity to stop him, was predicated entirely on the absolute incompetence of Saren. And yet, ME1 get's praised as the story with the best writing...when the whole story is only possible because the main antagonist is a buffoon.

I mean, am I missing something here? Cause I've thought about it for a while and it just doesn't make any sense to me.
Why do all the bad guys have bad ass voices? Why can't the final boss of a game have Joffrey's voice from Game of thrones?

OP: Because the Mass Effect gods said so? Why did the Turians start the First Contact War rather than just making contact? People make bad choices sometimes.

However I think the real answer is - Indoctrination takes time. While Saren was willing to attack a Human colony (he had a noted distaste for humans) he didn't want to put the council and his fellow turians at risk, so Sovereign sent him to solve another potential problem while he was indoctrinated.
 

IamGamer41

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Actually I just finished Mass Effect 1 tonight for the 10 time and Saren is still a awesome villain.Mostly because you only see him like 5 times the whole game.Also before the last fight he basically foretells the ending of the series. Soveren implanted him so he became 1/2 machine 1/2 organic.The pinnacle of evolution as he said. Kinda like the synthesis ending of ME 3.
 

gigastrike

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FINALLY! Almost 5 years after the game comes out and someone finally gets it! I had this EXACT theory way back when and no one took it seriously!
 

Nicolairigel

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In defense of "Why didn't he just wlatz in a and activate everything" accusation, I maybe wrong on this, so correct me if I am, but It seems like this was already Saren's plan before Shepard figured him out after the attack on Eden Prime. Saren couldn't risk anything while under investigation, and once Shepard had Tali's evidence Saren had no easy access to the citadel, meaning he had to gather his enforcements and invade. He also may have not had all of his forces completely ready before Eden Prime, so that would explain why he didn't just invade earlier.

But as everyone has already said, all stories have plot holes, It doesn't make Saren an "Idiot" Or Mass Effect 1 any less great. I still think it's my least favorite in the series, but it did have the best overall plot and narrative, while ME2 had the best dialogue and ME3 had the best gameplay. My order would probably go ME2>ME3>ME1.

And why is everyone hating on Kai Leng? I don't really think he was suppose to be the main Antagonist, It's not like he was the mastermind like Saren or Harbinger, the position really goes to TIM. Leng was just to suppose to be a rival, and Bioware did a great Job of making you hate the shit out of him. This of course lead to the best renegade option in the game. God, that moment was so satisfying. It would've been better if they brought him out at the start of the game, like on mars, if only to strengthen the rivalry and make it a bit more deep.
 

Vault101

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Nicolairigel said:
And why is everyone hating on Kai Leng? I don't really think he was suppose to be the main Antagonist, It's not like he was the mastermind like Saren or Harbinger, the position really goes to TIM. Leng was just to suppose to be a rival, and Bioware did a great Job of making you hate the shit out of him. This of course lead to the best renegade option in the game. God, that moment was so satisfying. It would've been better if they brought him out at the start of the game, like on mars, if only to strengthen the rivalry and make it a bit more deep.
I agree about Kei Lang

I feel that unlike Saren (or even the illusive man) were not really suposed to respect or see him as an eaqual villan

we are suposed to hate the miserable fucker, "ohh look at how BADASS I am nah! nah! nah! shepard, you cant hurt me!" and ohhh boy...we do

especially the first time you see him...he pop up out of nowhere, with his apearance you with "who and what the fuck are you!?" you know that hes not about to be brished aside

but yeah, having him on mars in place of the android..and having him beat up out crewmate/love interest would have made it even more effect (not that it needed to be)

DustyDrB said:
I can do enough mental gymnastics to overlook that plot hole. So...yes, Mass Effect is really that good. And Saren was a fantastic villain.

Also, because I hate this idea that you can't like all the games: Mass Effect 2 is still my favorite game ever, and Mass Effect 3 was freaking brilliant aside from two flaws (Shepard speaking on his own too much, and the ending).
I agree,(who says you cant like all of them?) I see the mass effect games
as one entity...ment to be played through rather than seperate

although Ive probably aleady said this to you...but in ME3 when shepard is speaking on her own she seems to show more personality than when I was selecting her options...and I dont mind that

I see your point though
 

Norrdicus

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Nicolairigel said:
In defense of "Why didn't he just wlatz in a and activate everything" accusation, I maybe wrong on this, so correct me if I am, but It seems like this was already Saren's plan before Shepard figured him out after the attack on Eden Prime.
In fact, Shepard didn't really "figure Saren out" either. If the dock worker hadn't been hiding behind the boxes, or Nihlus hadn't called Saren by name, Shepard could have never been told it was explicitly him

Saren was just under the effects of Murphy's Law for 5 minutes
 

Sniper Team 4

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You raise good points. I point out that all villains--and heroes too--are often 'idiots' because the game/story requires them to be, otherwise you wouldn't have a game/story. Take Skyrim for example. If Alduin had waited literally a few more seconds before attacking, the Dragonborn would have lost her head and no one would have been able to stop him. Yet, for reasons that are never explained in the game, Alduin chooses to attack at the WORST POSSIBLE MOMENT in the game, thus setting events in motion to end up getting him killed.
But that is a lame excuse, so I'll attempt to give logical reasons as to why Saren did what he did. Please notice the word 'attempt'.

Vigil suggests that Saren is just the most recent victim of Sovereign. It says that Sovereign has probably been using agents for many centuries, biding its time. This raises the question as to why it had to be Saren to do this. Why not other agents? Vigil suggests it's because Sovereign knew it would get stomped. A Reaper is strong, but if it revealed itself, the galaxy would unite and it would be destroyed before its mission was complete. So it waited. Saren just happened to come along at the right time for Sovereign. The Geth had been made and a faction followed it. It now had its army to launch the attack. It just needed an agent, someone who could move freely without drawing attention. In steps a Spectre who's already known for his extreme actions. Perfect timing.

As for why Saren didn't just charge in at first, I think it's because he didn't know that's what Sovereign wanted. Sovereign was likely hiding its plans from Saren at the beginning because it knew Saren wouldn't play along if it told him up front. Remember, Saren was also studying Sovereign, trying to learn about it. I doubt he immediately went, "Okay, I'll help you wipe us out, or at least prove we can be useful." He was slowly indoctrinated and Sovereign fed him hints and clues to its ultimate plan, pushing him down the path without telling him fully where it will lead. Saren probably didn't know what the Conduit was until Virmire. He probably didn't even realize Sovereign was a Reaper when he attacked Eden Prime. He probably just thought it was a Reaper ship like Shepard at first. Why do this?
Again, it comes down to the fact that Sovereign is just one ship, and it knows it can't stand up to an entire galaxy alone. So it was trying to get all its pieces in place before making its move. It would slowly reveal itself to Saren as he was indoctrinated, so Saren would feel like he was the one coming up with the ideas, not having them fed to him. It was like a game of chess. Position yourself, lure your enemies into the positions you want them in, and then strike.

But Shepard screwed up Sovereign's plan on Virmire. By talking to Sovereign, discovering what Sovereign really was, and causing Saren to doubt himself (at least my Shepard did), Sovereign panicked. It was watching as its careful plan was undone by one human. So, it took the route that you think should have been taken first: direct approach. However, now Saren was outed as a traitor. There was no way he was getting back inside the Citadel alive. So the Conduit, the back door, was needed to get him there and make sure the Citadel was ready to go when Sovereign arrived. Off goes Saren on his mission, using a Mass Relay that puts him right by where he needs to be inside the Citadel. Sovereign itself charges into battle, waiting for Saren to start closing the arms so it won't be destroyed while it works, and then unleashes its true Reaper destructive power. Which, while devastating, was not enough to save it.

So, there are my answers for why Saren did things the way he did. Sovereign knew it wasn't ready, and that it would only get one chance at its task. It waited until everything was nearly perfect, but panicked when it saw all its work coming undone and rushed its plan. The end result is the very reason why it didn't have Saren do things that way from the beginning. Does that help?
 
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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
Stereotypical villain number 563043.
How exactly is he stereotypical? Most villains in every game/movie/TV show are just doing the bad shit because either a) They want power (eg. Sauron) or b) Just doing it for the lulz (eg. The Joker).

Saren was different, he was trying to do good even if his methods were a little extreme.

OT: Yes, Saren was a bit of an idiot but what would the effects of indoctrination have on him? Yes, the story had plot holes but then which story doesn't? Yes diolouge was cheesy but then I wasn't expecting Godfather quality writing.
 

BreakfastMan

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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
Saren was better than Kai Leng, which is kinda damning for Kai Leng, cause Saren was a shit character. Stereotypical villain number 563043.

Personally, I think ME1 was the worst game in the series by a considerable margin. The story was meh, the inventory management was cumbersome, the environments ranged from mildly interesting to boring, the conversations were very underwhelming...

Meh. ME1 is a huge MEH for me.
This. So many hot, steaming piles of this. It perfectly sums up my opinion of ME1.

Also, I found TIM to be a much more intriguing villain than Saren. Better presented, more visually distinct, better acted, the whole shebang. :/
 

Zetatrain

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skywolfblue said:
But but but then Saren wouldn't have had the opportunity to give long comic-book style villain speeches to Shepard! :p

It would have been pretty easy with the help of Benezia and some of her croonies to have taken most of the citadel tower anyway, especially with the element of surprise. Given that the bulk of the citadel fleet was away until Shepard warned the council, the geth fleet would have mopped the floor with what little defenses the citadel had.
Well to be honest we don't know for sure whether or not Saren's agents would have been able to infiltrate and take over the citadel tower. While its definitely a possibility, I think an even greater problem is being able to hold the citadel tower long enough with just a handful of agents. With the conduit, Saren can sneak an entire army onto the citadel which would be more than enough to hold the tower for an indefinite amount of time. Now while the geth fleet would have mopped the floor with the citadel defense force, all the citadel has to do is close up and wait for reinforcements to show up.
 

Vault101

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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
Saren was better than Kai Leng, which is kinda damning for Kai Leng, cause Saren was a shit character. Stereotypical villain number 563043.

Personally, I think ME1 was the worst game in the series by a considerable margin. The story was meh, the inventory management was cumbersome, the environments ranged from mildly interesting to boring, the conversations were very underwhelming...

Meh. ME1 is a huge MEH for me.
I know ive kind of already said this

but I dont think Kei Lang was really supsoed to be a "villan" villan

he's just the illusives mans favorite attack dog, nothing more , he jsut seems to exists for us to hate him...which he is very effective at

(from my other post) [i/] "ohh look at how BADASS I am nah! nah! nah! shepard, you cant hurt me!" [/i]