Poll: Was ME1 really as good as we remember or was Saren just an idiot antagonist?

[boag]

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If Saren never attacked Eden Prime, Sovereign could have just flown into the Citadel, and Saren could have used his SPECTER status to request docking.

-Saren requests a private meeting with the council, and is than in the tower.

-Sovereign interfaces with the Citadel, and causes it to close.

-Geth that have been packed into Sovereign activate, and assault the Citadel directly.

-With the Citadel cut off from reinforcements, and it's local security in disarray, Saren kills the council, and activates the Citadel's mass effect relay.

-Reapers pour through and the galaxy is prepared for another cycle.

So let me get this straight...

Saren turns up in a vast ship, like, larger than anything in Citadel space and of a truely alien design. The council looks at this thing and goes "Haha, it's okay, he's a SPECTER! Why would we possibly question him arriving in a titanic ship beyond the scale of even our greatest dreadnoughts? Who are we to question Saren's almighty pimp-wagon?". Then the ship not only docks, but suggestively latches onto the central spire, all the while the council, C-Sec, and everybody else on the Citadel just nods along with this.

Saren then deploys with his Geth... Fighting into the most heavily protected part of the Citadel, activating the central controls before anyone realises something is awry. Your entire plan hinges on everyone looking at Sovereign, an eight kilometre long ship and not thinking that there's anything weird about it at all, even after it starts molesting the effective capital of all sentient life in the galaxy.

http://alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/misc-genius-l.png[/quote]

Well derpy hooves, isnt it ironic that your description is exactly what happens at the end of the game, minus saren still being a spectre.

 

[Vault101]

The thing is I dont hate Kai Leng because hes such a badass attack dog who trumped me, I hate him because hes this mild annoyance the game keeps on shoving in my face.

You can say Bioware meant to make a shit character, but at the end of the day, it doesnt matter. Hes still a shit character.

actually I agree in a way...thats "sort of" what I ment

everything about him makes you hate him, his "ohhh Im a BADASS!" apearence (you dont get to be cooler than ME!). And when he bursts in youre automatically thinking "who and WHAT the fuck are you?!" you dont know who he is but your know he's an asshole (and you know hes going to have some kind of role due to his detailed unique apearance)

he just pops up at the worst possible points to screw up youre mission

and he's not even as badass as he would have you belive, he runs and hides shepard calls him out on this

so It may have been problematic if he was intended to have a bigger role (I thourght he might even end up a on your team, thankfully this wasnt the case)

he is a shit charachter, but he serves his purpose..he's just a mook whos going to end up killed by you, and you hate him but for the right reasons

finishing him off wasnt quite satisfying enough..

 

[Vault101]

Once again my boys at CDProjekt have me covered. If you want to see a mook who wants to kill you done right, play The Witcher 2.

Im not saying Kei Leng being a crappy charachter is excusable (he has a role in the novels and such, but unfortunatly for the uninitiated he's not much of a charachter)

I am saying that him being a shit charachter doesnt bother me as much due to his role in the story

it would be different if he was like..say a squad member or somthing (you know..the obligatory "morally qustionable" one..thank god that didnt happen)


anyway..point taken

 

[T.D.]

As I see it Sovereign and Saren didn't know why the signal to the keepers had failed. It might be an interference with the keepers, or something wrong with relay itself. So launching an attack to secure the Citadel would've given them temporary control, but if they couldn't fix the problem on the Citadel then they would be trapped and take the brunt of a counterattack which because they didn't have control over the Mass Relays they would get. And Sovereign is the only Reaper within reasonable distance of our Galaxy. If it died the galaxy would be warned, and the Reapers wouldn't be able to use the Citadel. So the Reaper chose, instead of charging at the problem without a solution, to find the solution. Which meaned infiltration by indoctrinated spies. But such spies can only find out so much. It is likely they found that the conduit had been key to stopping the Reapers activating the Citadel, probably from the second Prothean beacon.

So they start looking for the Conduit. Which is why Saren went to Eden Prime (to clear up the info from his beacon), to Feros (to get the Cipher) and Noveria (to find Ilos). In this time he still doesn't know what the Conduit is, or how it works. On Ilos he would've found out that the Conduit was merely a mass relay to the Citadel and that only the keepers had been tampered with, which meant they COULD just activate it manually. So they made a full on assault, confident that, now knowing the problem, they could solve it quickly enough to avoid a counter attack.

But because of Shepard they weren't quick enough, and that's why they failed.

 

[Joccaren]

Correction, Shepard had no clue what it was, we don't know if Saren and Sovereign were on the same boat.

The only reason Shepard knows that what he is looking for is called conduit, is because he listened to Saren talking about it.

It's probable that Saren knew more about it.

Yet he didn't know where it was nor how to get there, so I am doubtful he knew what it was as well. Saren likely knew it was the tool the Protheans used to somehow stop the Keepers from receiving the signal, but I find it unlikely that he knew exactly what it was, or what it did.

 

[Vault101]

you know what I kind of wish?

I dont mind calling them "Reapers" its apropriate of course...but I think it sounds alittle silyl after a while, doesnt really do them justice

I would have thourght it would have been cool if they came up with some kind of foregn prothian name for them, somthing omnivous

 

[Elamdri]

Saren was a SPECTRE, an above-the-law Supercop with nearly unlimited power and access on the Citadel. Not only that but he was the BEST of the SPECTREs.

So my question then is why didn't Saren just just have Sovereign and the Geth Fleet just suddenly stream through the Mass Relay while he waltzed up to the Citadel Tower in the Chaos and activated the Citadel Relay? We know that he had Krogan and Asari support

What are you talking about?

He goes to Eden Prime to find out information about the conduit, this is what makes him a villan yes, but he couldn't by-pass this step otherwise he wouldn't know what to do, so he never could have Krogan and Asari support without going to Eden Prime (Also, the Krogan army came later, and by Asari support, I assume you mean the official Asari army of biotics?).

I don't believe that. It's not unreasonable that they wouldn't have known what the conduit is by the beginning of the game, but regardless, Sovereign still clearly believed that he could have activated the Citadel relay manually, or else there would have been no point to everything that they were doing. If that was the case, they should have ignored the Conduit, called the Reapers, and wiped out everyone. Then once we were all dead, they could have looked for the Conduit and fixed the problem before leaving to dark space

And yes, he did already have Krogan and Asari on his side. Wrex tells you during the game that before Eden Prime he worked with Saren once on a Mission with a bunch of other Krogan and we know that he had Matriarch Benezia and her Asari Commandos before the game started.

, and they already have Citadel access. He could have had a ton of double agents on the Citadel ready to attack on his command.

Who would these people be? Not fellow spectres, not c-sec, everyone else would've had to be... an enkindler, not to be suspicious, I don't see how that could've worked.

They would be the Asari Commandos and Krogan Mercs that I just talked about. Hell you see Asari all over the place and Krogan aren't that uncommon on the Citadel. There is no reason he couldn't have had a bunch of them show up on the Citadel a day in advance and wait. We learn in Mass Effect 2 that the Citadel had really lax security and there was a huge crackdown after the battle.

He also was able to sneak Geth onto Noveria

That was the side-kick played by Mirina Sirtis. And the Citadel isn't a planet, so there's no where to hide giant geth in containers, unlike the ice plains of Noveria.

Right, of course. How could I forget. Because there are no giant warehouses on the Citadel that are filled with giant shipping containers filled with synthetics...oh wait, except for like that level in Mass Effect 2 which was a giant warehouse on the Citadel filled with shipping containers filled with smuggled mechs...

Mass Effect 3 might be the best Mass Effect - but only just. If it had a proper story conclusion to back up all of the great plot through out the game, no one would be questioning anything about it, not really. Mass Effect had excellent everything, its just a completely solid stand alone game, ME2 doesn't do that at all, its only good as a building block from ME1, and ME3 probably is a good stand alone game, but its only really competitive with ME1 once you've played ME1/ME2 and have that investment of wanting your Shepard to do what you want. ME1 has the unfair of advantage of not having to follow itself, the problem with them setting the bar so high with that first game, is there was virtually no where to go but down if changed anything - which they did in ME2, the combat was horrible - and correcting for it in ME3 brought it back somewhat, but ultimately without that conclusion, ME3 can never be said to have a greater story and thus overall be as solid a game as a result, as ME1 will always be remembered to be as.

See, I never really much liked Mass Effect 1's story. I thought it was slow, I clearly think that the plot doesn't make much sense, and to be honest, I never much liked Saren as a villian. I don't buy his motivation. It comes off really forced to me throughout the entire game. He dialogue is corny and I think the part I like the least is when you do your "persuasion" challenges, he has this absolutely unrealistic shift in his character and way of thinking.

I liken it to the scene in Return of the Sith where Anakin helps Palpatine kill Mace Windu. Up until that point Anakin is really conflicted about what to do, and after Mace Windu dies he is having a breakdown, then Palpatine goes "Join me" and Anakin's like "Mkay." It's just a completely unbelievable shift in the character.

And it's the same way at the end of Mass Effect 1, when you convince Saren to kill himself. I was just sitting there like...really?

 

[Sexy Devil]

Actually I have a somewhat relevant question about ME2, though they likely covered it in the game at some point. Why the hell do they let Legion onto the Citadel without a second thought? All that beefed up security and they don't even notice the thing with a damn flashlight for a head.

 

[Vault101]

Actually I have a somewhat relevant question about ME2, though they likely covered it in the game at some point. Why the hell do they let Legion onto the Citadel without a second thought? All that beefed up security and they don't even notice the thing with a damn flashlight for a head.

because they think legion is a "personal assistance droid"

and the customs lady is a dumbass....so much so she thinks female comander sehaprd is a man "Im sorry sir"

 

[Sexy Devil]

Actually I have a somewhat relevant question about ME2, though they likely covered it in the game at some point. Why the hell do they let Legion onto the Citadel without a second thought? All that beefed up security and they don't even notice the thing with a damn flashlight for a head.

because they think legion is a "personal assistance droid"

and the customs lady is a dumbass....so much so she thinks female comander sehaprd is a man "Im sorry sir"

Whoa, c-sec is may actually be literally retarded. Only the seriously dumb criminals must get caught. No wonder Garrus quit.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Saren was a SPECTRE, an above-the-law Supercop with nearly unlimited power and access on the Citadel. Not only that but he was the BEST of the SPECTREs.

So my question then is why didn't Saren just just have Sovereign and the Geth Fleet just suddenly stream through the Mass Relay while he waltzed up to the Citadel Tower in the Chaos and activated the Citadel Relay? We know that he had Krogan and Asari support

What are you talking about?

He goes to Eden Prime to find out information about the conduit, this is what makes him a villan yes, but he couldn't by-pass this step otherwise he wouldn't know what to do, so he never could have Krogan and Asari support without going to Eden Prime (Also, the Krogan army came later, and by Asari support, I assume you mean the official Asari army of biotics?).

I don't believe that. It's not unreasonable that they wouldn't have known what the conduit is by the beginning of the game, but regardless, Sovereign still clearly believed that he could have activated the Citadel relay manually, or else there would have been no point to everything that they were doing. If that was the case, they should have ignored the Conduit, called the Reapers, and wiped out everyone. Then once we were all dead, they could have looked for the Conduit and fixed the problem before leaving to dark space

And yes, he did already have Krogan and Asari on his side. Wrex tells you during the game that before Eden Prime he worked with Saren once on a Mission with a bunch of other Krogan and we know that he had Matriarch Benezia and her Asari Commandos before the game started.

First, let us deal with the Krogan army deal: From the time the game starts to the battle of the Citadel, we are talking several weeks or even a few months of game time. Saren was probably aiming for a specific number of krogans and it is entirely possible that he did not have this number available by the time he went to Eden Prime and needed more time to clone and train them. Remember that the entire game is basically Shephard and friends fighting against the clock to prevent Saren from executing his plan, a plan that has been laid down since before the start of the game but hasn't been ready for execution.

Secondly, the beacon apparently holds information that might compromise Sovereigns existance and thwart the Reapers plans should it be known. Even if Saren has another lead on the Conduit, it makes sense that he wants to destroy the beacon before anyone else can activate it. Letting the human race or the council get their hands on a beacon that will tell you all about the Reapers and their intentions would most likely screw Sovereign and Saren over royally. Hence, Saren goes down to destroy it but in the process his role as an agent of the Reapers is revealed and Shephard learns about the Reapers.

Basically, the beacon was an unknown factor that threatened Sovereign's plan. Hence why Saren was there to remove it, which led to Shephard learning about the Reapers and Saren's betrayal. To me, it makes sense at least.

 

[Vault101]

Whoa, c-sec is may actually be literally retarded. Only the seriously dumb criminals must get caught. No wonder Garrus quit.

well obviously they couldnt do much about it (other than not allow you to bring legion on the citadel) so they just added that line

also the thing with the customs lady is an error

but in the end it kind of makes it funny, and I doubt the whole stupidness/retardesness was completly uninentional, so yeah, you kind of said it yourself...they knew it was stupid but ran with it

 

[Sateru]

:/ I saw Saren not really as a villain at all... I mean, he was kinda bipolar for a reason, he was indoctrinated. That is actually one of the good reasons behind Matriarch Benezia existing in the game. They show two sides of indoctrination... she was able to show just how powerful it was... she tried to resist it, she tried to be a spy that might be able to turn Saren away from his plans. Instead, Sovereign took her mind over... she said that she was able to make a sort of refuge in her mind, a place that she kept safe from indoctrination, but she was forced to do terrible things against her will. Saren on the other hand, he was swayed... hell, he was mostly augmented by the first time you see him. In his eyes, he believed that they couldn't resist the Reapers. They were going to win. Instead of fighting them, he wanted to show them just how useful their species was. He wanted to basically kiss ass because it seemed like the only other solution. There was die, and there was servitude... he chose servitude. Shepard is well known for having a silver tongue, he basically revealed to Saren that... in the end, Sovereign was just using him... and that Saren was basically a slave... unable to do anything except obey. In the end, Saren didn't realize just how far he had fallen... not until Shepard told him the truth. Saren became aware of it... he wanted his people to survive... but he didn't realize just how much he had sacrificed to do it. He was blind in his quest to save his kind, to save everyone he could or wanted to from Sovereign exterminating them. He did the only thing he could to free himself from indoctrination... especially since there was no way back from it. He could never be free... except in death, but even that was denied when Sovereign decided to puppeteer his corpse.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Saren was an anti-villian.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

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Well derpy hooves, isnt it ironic that your description is exactly what happens at the end of the game, minus saren still being a spectre.

Well yes, except then he set himself up to use the Conduit to arrive smack-bang in the middle of the Presidium right at the foot of the Council tower, allowing him to reach the main control system, undo the fiddling that the Protheans had done and hand over control to Soveriegn/himself. This allowed him to stop the Citadel being closed before Sovereign reached where it needed to be.

So I'm saying that yes, Saren did need to do all the stuff that he does to research the Protheans and find the Conduit or else the assault on the Citadel would've ended with Sovereign tapping on the outside of the Citadel and still unable to control it. A purely direct assault would not have worked or would at best have been very risky, and anything involving Sovereign getting anywhere near the Citadel would result in an all-out battle.

 

[boag]

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Well derpy hooves, isnt it ironic that your description is exactly what happens at the end of the game, minus saren still being a spectre.

Well yes, except then he set himself up to use the Conduit to arrive smack-bang in the middle of the Presidium right at the foot of the Council tower, allowing him to reach the main control system, undo the fiddling that the Protheans had done and hand over control to Soveriegn/himself. This allowed him to stop the Citadel being closed before Sovereign reached where it needed to be.

which he could have done anyways if he hadnt attacked Eden Prime, the fucking Council believed every word he said, he could have just come up and said, I need you all to evactuate, I fear someone may have planted us a bomb


So I'm saying that yes, Saren did need to do all the stuff that he does to research the Protheans and find the Conduit or else the assault on the Citadel would've ended with Sovereign tapping on the outside of the Citadel and still unable to control it. A purely direct assault would not have worked or would at best have been very risky, and anything involving Sovereign getting anywhere near the Citadel would result in an all-out battle.

the only reason he needed to do all that shit was because we needed an excuse for a game, Sarens need to do the idiot thing and attack eden prime is retarded.