Poll: What do you think about circumcision?

[Y_P]

Circumcision on babies is plain wrong and violates basic human rights*. Somehow most healthy nations like Sweeden, Finalnd don't do it, somehow England stopped it years ago, somehow Australia woke up and rates dropped, rates seem to drop in Canada too, people in Germany, France, Italy, Greece don't do it unless it's the immigrants.


*) Source: common sense & logic

What are the medical benefits?

it lowers the risk of some infections and STD's.

But the question is: why would anyone take extreme measure of dealing with a certain condition and use it as a prevention? Most things circumcision alledgedly prevents are prevented a lot better with condoms.


/omg, my first post is about circumcision :O

 

[Sewora]

Incorrect. You can also have various forms of cosmetic surgery done. Breast enlargements, nose jobs, eye lifts, tats, piercings, colligen injections, botox, braces, etc.

An no, an infant has ZERO say in what medical procedures are performed on them.

What would you say if the norm somewhere was for parents to force kids to take painful plastic surgeries? If you'd condemn that, you're essentially a hypocrite, because that's essentially what circumcision is, plus the fact that it makes sex less pleasing.

I've held a baby for their circumcision. They cry just about as much as if they have a dirty diaper.

And I'm not a hypocrite if you read what I've repeatedly said in this thread. If there is a cultural/religious imparative and there is no conclusive scientific evidence of harm or benefit then its the parent's call and preserving tradition is probably a good thing.

If there is no real reason to do it and the procedure had uncertain science, then better to be safe and don't do it. (And no, your statement on sexual pleasure is not confirmed by the science at the moment)

If there is conclusive evidence of harm that outways any good, don't do it.

That set of steps applies equally to any form of medical procedure on a child (and for that matter, I'd apply that same standard to myself.)

First off, who is even talking about how much it hurts the baby? We all know it does, and crying is their ONLY form of language, it is how they tell you things, so it sounds the same whether it's due to hunger or pain, you just have to learn to read your child.
It was not long ago that we didn't give children anasthetics at the dentist because kids didn't feel pain because no one could remember feeling pain when they were that young. Well.. We now also know that it's almost impossible to remember anything from before the age of 5, the time when your brain starts developing that part of the memory. Hence why alot of 5 year olds has alot of fabricated memories because it goes a bit bonkers and they get things mixed up.

Second, it IS proven that circumsizion in fact reduces sexual sensation in the male and for the female during intercourse, mainly because of shafing since the natural construction called the foreskin that is supposed to prevent unecessary shafing is nonexistant. It's called friction. Just look it up, there's a billion unbiased articles about it.

Third, religious beliefs have caused murder, rape, molestation, mutilation, mass executions, pillaging, slavery, and almost every form of misery and pain you can possibly think of.
Why is it that we throughout history have let it happen? Because it was right at the time, and no one dared question it. It is time that we as a species drop these religious nonsensical archaic traditions and start evolving beyond the need for silly rituals and start appreciating the real beauty and rarity of our existance.

 

[springheeljack]

I got circumcised as a child and I was not of the Jewish faith
and I do not remember what it felt like to have it removed though my mom tells me I cried and cried (hey I was a baby get off my back)
And I know for damn sure that I have never had any "psychological issues" due to the supposed traumatic experience i do not even remember

Foreskin is gross/hilarious. Off with it

The psychological issues men can have is not due to the traumatic experience since no one has any real vivid memories from before the age of 3. The depression and psychological issues is due to the realization of the loss of a part of their bodies, and their parents decision to take the freedom of choice away from them.

Well I just do not see that happening I mean its not like you had a doctor cut off your hand at a young age or one of your ass cheeks now that would be traumatic
but the foreskin on your penis I don't think so
Now if we were discussing a topic such as feet binding then yeah I would say that it is such a cruel thing to do to a child and it will have long term negative effects

 

[Glic2003]

I've researched this subject quite a bit, so I'll just throw in my comments, for whatever they're worth. I'm not circumcised, so most of this is just anecdotal. Also, I didn't read all 12+ pages of the thread, so I don't know if my comments are just repetition. Anyway, these are the pros and cons as I see them:

I've always found it extremely easy to masturbate with a foreskin; possibly too easy as I always tended to do it a lot. So I could understand parents wanting to cut it off for that reason. I still enjoy intercourse with a partner, but I feel like I can get off faster and easier when it's just me and the foreskin.

During prolonged intercourse, the foreskin can get sore, as it can be a bit sensitive. Using a condom always seemed awkward to me, and can lead to a weird "tangled up" feeling that I found really uncomfortable. Also, the foreskin adds some extra thickness, meaning small or average sized condoms might not fit at all.

Some women seem to like a foreskin, some don't. My own girlfriend said it looks unattractive, yet she seems to really like the actual intercourse. So perhaps this is a matter of function being more important than form.

I've never really understood the "hygiene" arguments. The foreskin creates a natural lubricant, which carries a slight odour with it. It has nothing to do with being "clean". As far as I'm concerned, cutting off a foreskin to keep a glans cleaner would be like cutting off my eyelids to keep my eyes cleaner.

It is possible for a circumcision to go wrong, and that's not a risk I would be willing to take if I had a son of my own. Certainly it is rare, but it has happened. Imagine having to go through life with a mangled penis! Also, while it may be considered minor surgery for a baby, having a circumcision as an adult is apparently much more complicated, and much riskier.

One thing I've never understood: I'm under the impression that cutting off the foreskin would make my penis thinner/smaller, since the foreskin seems to add some extra bulk to it. And most men seem to want their penis as large as possible, so why would any man be in favour of trimming part of it off?

 

[imnot]

Im probelry not going to like the awnser to this,...

But how can you circumsise a female?

 

[Colour Scientist]

Im probelry not going to like the awnser to this,...

But how can you circumsise a female?

Google it and feel the horror.
It's pretty gruesome.

 

[Cheesus333]

I'm not a fan of it, personally, but I see no reason at all why someone shouldn't be allowed to choose that for themselves.

As for parents choosing for them, well... no. That's just plain unfair.

Im probelry not going to like the awnser to this,...

But how can you circumsise a female?

Google it and feel the horror.
It's pretty gruesome.

Don't google it for the love of God don't google it.

Google pulls no punches. Ask someone who is not likely to show you pictures.

 

[imnot]

Im probelry not going to like the awnser to this,...

But how can you circumsise a female?

Google it and feel the horror.
It's pretty gruesome.

The only reason I asked here was because I was scared google would give me pics!
Seriously my inability to not click links has led me to more than enough pictures of genetalia today!

 

[Colour Scientist]

The only reason I asked here was because I was scared google would give me pics!
Seriously my inability to not click links has led me to more than enough pictures of genetalia today!

As far as I remember, the first few pictures are diagrams as opposed to actual photos. If not though, I'm sorry.

 

[Sewora]

Im probelry not going to like the awnser to this,...

But how can you circumsise a female?

Well, women also have foreskin so if I had no idea I'd assume that's what they'd remove. (Also known as the clitoral hood. It serves a similar purpose but has remained intact throughout history, lucky for women.)

But female circumsizion ranges from cutting off the labia minora to the clitoris and even sewing the vagina shut.
It's horrible, and it's often performed on girls who are old enough to realize what's going on, who are struggling against it and suffering.
Boys would do that to, if they were held down and cut into, especially a very special part of their body that they've gotten used to.

 

[Rodrigo Girao]

Food for thought: female genital cutting was once legal and relatively common in the USA and UK.

 

[Pipotchi]

3) Assuming you live in a 1st world nation, most penises are circumcised at birth. Chicks these days, especially with our society that is fixated on grooming, aren't used to seeing an uncircumcised penis. It looks weird, to them at least.

It's not common at al in Western Europe afaik

You're correct, outside of the religous communities its pretty rare in UK, Germany France etc and very rare in the Scandinavian countries.

I assume the original poster believes the term first world nation ends at the USA's borders

 

[Sewora]

There's an interesting fact to take into consideration: Gender equality. The fact that men are forced into being circumsized whilst women are not. That by itself is wrong by human rights standards.
And yes, forced, since they never have the option not to be if their parents have the power to have it done to you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_and_law

Bit of a good read.

I assume the original poster believes the term first world nation ends at the USA's borders

Yet many of us in Scandinavia considers the US to be the third world.

 

[Bento Box]

I know this is getting off topic but I wanted to address this

I don't believe in ritual animal sacrifice -- and I don't believe that just because your religion says so, you should be compelled to kill an animal for no tangible reason.

We kill animals for food clothing and for fun all the time. At that point does it really matter that one person kills a deer because he likes hunting and another person kills a deer because his god wants him to (assuming the deer is not made to suffer)?

I don't believe in ritual self-flagellation -- and I don't believe that just because your religion says so, you should flagellate yourself for any reason other than self-gratification.

If it's an adult they should be able to hurt themselves for any reason they choose.

1: the difference is precisely between the hunter who kills the animal for sport, and the hunter who kills the animal for food. One person is killing with purpose; the other is being a wasteful, murdering, sadistic ****.

2: I agree whole-heartedly, and I can see few instances of an adult choosing to flagellate himself aside from purposes of self-gratification. That's not what ritual self-flagellation is, though. Ritual self-flagellation is saying, "I'm sorry for being a worthless, pitiful sinner, unworthy of your love, Sky-Daddy. Here, let me punish myself for being an insignificant worm before you."

 

[Y_P]

I'll just add something funny.

When I was in early teens and watched stupid US comedy movies about teenagers, school and whatnot, there were often scenes about masturbation, and always the guy held lube in his hands, always lube and paper towels. I understood paper towels ;p but I tell you, I never knew what lube is for I kinds thought it's some kind of cleaning measure to use after lol. Seems like circumcied men tend to need some extra help to make it natural, as I have everyting at hand.

There is no way in hell that mother nature/God/evolution made a mistake, if it's there, it's there for a reason it's pretty much as simple as that.

 

[Kanlic]

Nonsense. That only flies if you were to never take a shower. Besides, how about we just cut off all our limbs then? Those can also infect after all.

And considering you likely used arms and fingers to type your post, all limbs that can infect, you don't even follow your own line of reasoning.

I'm sorry, but that's retarded logic right there. I understand going to the extreme is the point of arguing, but you are essentially arguing that there should never be stairs because Mt. Everest is hard to climb.Circumcising a penis near birth literally does nothing but prevent the possibility of future infection. Chopping off your arm can lead to phantom limb pain, not to mention inhibit your ability to interact with the world.

I know you can clean it, I'm not stupid. My question is why risk it. You could go camping for two weeks, or hell, he's a boy. I know lots off guys who just go days without realizing they needed to take a shower. It's damage control.

Also, why is it that doctors immediately circumcise the penis if the parents don't say anything? Please tell me because I'd like to know why a physician with 15 years of training would do something so "harmful."

All the more reason not to practise genital mutilation at all eh? Besides, it's totally immoral to mutilate a child that has no choice in the matter. It's even immoral to mutilate a child that has seen no other ideas except religious dogma, and pretend it was a free choice.

I'm an Atheist and am glad my parents, who are also not religious, decided to give me the snip. Guess what, I haven't felt pain or any kind of discomfort my entire life, and I'm walking around feeling pretty good about myself. Besides, its as benign as getting your ears pierced, or if you want a more intense comparison, getting your appendix removed. There is no harm, I don't get why you are getting so uppity about this.

Sorry, what? I can see such a thing happening in Israel, but outside of that, needless genital mutilation is not practised at all. Heck, female genital mutilation is even a crime in just about any country. Circumcise a girl here and you're going away for 10-15 years in prison.

Female circumcision is harmful, that's why we don't do it. Male circumcision is beneficial, that's why we do it. Also, I apologize, I can't speak for the rest of the world, but that's how it is in the U.S.

Again I wonder where you're from that you say that. Such a thing is completely unknown to me. It even sounds outlandish. Why would any woman approve of genital mutilation unless they've been indoctrinated with the religious dogma that pretends it to be a good thing.

Have you seen an uncircumcised penis? It's awkward to look at and kinda gross. I have literally asked all five of the women nearby me just now what they thought, and they all told me they prefer circumcised. They tell its easier to work with, and by golly I agree.

Earlier you said that even wearing underwear was painfull, so you're contradicting yourself here.

I said once you're older it is. When your a baby you don't feel a thing, or more so you can't mentally process any potential pain. Besides what the hell does a kid do with his penis besides pee anyways. What I'm confused by is why anybody would actually be angry about being circumcised or the practice of circumcision in general. It's a non-problem.

--------------------------

1) The foreskin helps keep it clean and avoid infections, do some research. Following your logic we'd have to remove the armpits too or stitch the labia majora and minora to the thighs on women to expose the vagina and make it dry. The glans is supposed to be somewhat moist to keep a good pH balance. Please name one gland on the human body that's supposed to be dry and sandy.

2) Why would you do it at all if it serves no purpose? No one is doing it at adult age, it's just stupid.

3) One of the very few first world countries that still has circumsizion as a standard procedure is the US. And even there it's becomming less and less common.

Sure it helps keep the penis clean and avoid infections, that is if we are running around naked like we used to as a species. We now have clothes that serve this function, so the argument that we need it to keep clean has literally been evolved out of our system. Doing that other stuff you just mentioned is dangerous, and the risk of danger from a circumcision is minuscule.

When I said it makes no difference, I mean it makes no difference to the person growing up with either a circumcised or uncircumcised penis. When adult men get circumcisions for either religious or hygienic reasons. That is an issue because there are many sensitivity issues involved with adapting to a penis that is newly exposed to the world.

Finally, the U.S. is leading the world in medical innovation. Don't say we are doing it wrong if everyone else is playing catch up.

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It's not common at al in Western Europe afaik

Apparently neither is proper grammar or spelling. I guess I should have been more specific because I am speaking from an anecdotal perspective. From what I have read and heard, what I said is probably true, at least in the U.S. I can't speak for places like Spain or France.

 

[imnot]

Im probelry not going to like the awnser to this,...

But how can you circumsise a female?

Well, women also have foreskin so if I had no idea I'd assume that's what they'd remove. (Also known as the clitoral hood. It serves a similar purpose but has remained intact throughout history, lucky for women.)

But female circumsizion ranges from cutting off the labia minora to the clitoris and even sewing the vagina shut.
It's horrible, and it's often performed on girls who are old enough to realize what's going on, who are struggling against it and suffering.
Boys would do that to, if they were held down and cut into, especially a very special part of their body that they've gotten used to.

D: Why would you, what, I..., wat?

 

[Standby]

It's perfectly fine, and has positive medical benefits to it. People complaining about male circumcision being abuse are just whining for the sake of being whiney. Why does it matter to you? If you don't want to circumcise your boys, that's fine. But telling lies such as saying it lowers sensitivity (something you can't really measure), is just going too far.

Yes infclicting harm on new born babies for no reason is whining for the sake of it.

Actually its true because your cutting of lots of nerves. Say doctors remove nerves in your rm, its going to be less sensitive. You cant measure that, but there is difference becuase the nerves are absent.

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to log in and post here for the first time in months to interject.

Now I was circumcised when i was a child due to medical reasons, and without going into graphic detail, I have had no problems making do with this 'lack of sensitivity', just ask my girlfriend.

So please don't just assume that because someone is circumcised, they are somehow disadvantaged or 'broken' when it comes to using it, as it's quite offensive. Besides, by that logic if you're involved with someone else, it's only going to benefit your partner, so win-win!

 

[Archroy]

Here's a hypothetical question for those that are pro circumcision on health grounds. I have daughter who is just beginning to go through puberty. My grandmother died of breast cancer and my mother had a mastectomy because of breast cancer.

My daughter may therefore have a higher risk of developing the disease when she is older, particularly if she has inherited a genetic mutation that renders her more susceptible.

There are some adult women who take the very drastic step of undergoing a preventative double mastectomy when they find themselves in the unfortunate position of being at a very high risk.

If you accept that it is permissible to circumcise to (supposedly) prevent infections/STD's and penis cancer (very rare indeed), do you think it is also ok to perform a double mastectomy on a child to prevent breast cancer?