Poll: What's wrong with piracy

[fenrizz]

]

OK then, let me put it this way: paying money for games is good enough for millions of people, what's so fucking special about you that you figure you should get the same games for free?

Because I easily can.
That would be the most obvious answer.

Note that I do not condone piracy, nor do I pirate.

 

[Screamarie]

While I know there are big money and industry parts to it, for me it comes down to one thing. It's stealing.

You can try and pretty it up, tell me you're not hurting anyone, you're not taking anything that has a phsyical body, but lots of people put YEARS of time and effort to make that with the intention of selling it for profit to pay their bills.

It's stealing. End of discussion. The only time I do not have any problem with pirating is if you can't find an actual copy of it because it's too old or it's not sold in your country.

 

[Klopy]

Companies need money to keep going, so pirating is bad.
Sometimes a game may not seem interesting but you can torrent it, so its... good?

I dunno. It seems like a fight between WANT and NEED here. There is no GOOD about torrenting. Its stealing for personal gain. And yes, its stealing. Its putting a fake copy of the game in front of you, in place of a game that would have cost money.

Yes, I have torrented. But, to be honest, nothing that adds up to over 20 bucks. I've downloaded some music and a couple of games that aren't even in stores anymore or that I've owned at one point. The music I could have downloaded off of Youtube for free(but woulda taken more time) anyway.

Ever heard of a game called Demigod? Well.... Read this.

You may have heard by now that recently released PC game Demigod has been thoroughly raped by pirates, to the point where, at one point, only 12% of the title's online users were legitimate customers. That is pretty damn harsh, and developer Stardock has some equally harsh words to say about it.

"Demigod is heavily pirated," writes Stardock boss Brad Wardell. "And make no mistake, piracy pisses me off.

"If you?re playing a pirated copy right now, if you?re one of those people on Hamachi or GameRanger playing a pirated copy and have been for more than a few days, then you should either buy it or accept that you?re a thief and quit rationalizing it any other way."

Hell hath no fury like a PC developer scorned. At last count, it's suggested that over 100,000 naughty pirates have ripped Demigod off, so one can understand why Wardell is pissed. Still, I doubt trying to shame them on his blog will sway public opinion, especially when most pirates have already rationalized in their heads that they are freedom fighters rather than brain burglars.
http://www.destructoid.com/demigod-dev-to-pirates-accept-you-re-a-thief-131731.phtml

TD;DR. Only 12% of Demigod's online users were legitimate customers. This pretty much ruined the company. They can't make games anymore because of the fear of more torrenting and lost money.

Please... We want to fund companies that make fun games, right? It gives them incentive to make more. If everyone stole, then no one would want to make games anymore. You're not being a hero by sticking it to the man. You're saying that you deserve the months of labor spent on the game for free. Think think think. They spent months on this. They wanted like 30 bucks for this game. Not even 60. And it was destroyed.

 

[fenrizz]

While I know there are big money and industry parts to it, for me it comes down to one thing. It's stealing.

You can try and pretty it up, tell me you're not hurting anyone, you're not taking anything that has a phsyical body, but lots of people put YEARS of time and effort to make that with the intention of selling it for profit to pay their bills.

It's stealing. End of discussion. The only time I do not have any problem with pirating is if you can't find an actual copy of it because it's too old or it's not sold in your country.

It is not stealing, nor is it theft.
It is copyright infringement.

The law says so, so please stop insisting that it is.
I'd rather discuss the implications and impact of piracy.

 

[Screamarie]

While I know there are big money and industry parts to it, for me it comes down to one thing. It's stealing.

You can try and pretty it up, tell me you're not hurting anyone, you're not taking anything that has a phsyical body, but lots of people put YEARS of time and effort to make that with the intention of selling it for profit to pay their bills.

It's stealing. End of discussion. The only time I do not have any problem with pirating is if you can't find an actual copy of it because it's too old or it's not sold in your country.

It is not stealing, nor is it theft.
It is copyright infringement.

The law says so, so please stop insisting that it is.
I'd rather discuss the implications and impact of piracy.

According to dictionary.com - to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force.

Yes, it is copyright infringement but that doesn't mean it's not stealing as well.

Also, you are not the king of these forums. If you wish to discuss the implications and impact of piracy then you may do so, but that doesn't mean I can't answer the question of "why am I against it?" that the original poster posed. Stop pretending that you know better than everyone else.

 

[fenrizz]

While I know there are big money and industry parts to it, for me it comes down to one thing. It's stealing.

You can try and pretty it up, tell me you're not hurting anyone, you're not taking anything that has a phsyical body, but lots of people put YEARS of time and effort to make that with the intention of selling it for profit to pay their bills.

It's stealing. End of discussion. The only time I do not have any problem with pirating is if you can't find an actual copy of it because it's too old or it's not sold in your country.

It is not stealing, nor is it theft.
It is copyright infringement.

The law says so, so please stop insisting that it is.
I'd rather discuss the implications and impact of piracy.

According to dictionary.com - to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force.

Yes, it is copyright infringement but that doesn't mean it's not stealing as well.

Also, you are not the king of these forums. If you wish to discuss the implications and impact of piracy then you may do so, but that doesn't mean I can't answer the question of "why am I against it?" that the original poster posed. Stop pretending that you know better than everyone else.

Then stop claiming that piracy is something that it is not.

From Wikipedia:

The actus reus of theft is usually defined as an unauthorized taking, keeping or using of another's property which must be accompanied by a mens rea of dishonesty and/or the intent to permanently deprive the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use

You are not the king of criminal law.
And under the law piracy is not the same as theft.

Stop pretending that you know better than the law.

 

[Harlief]

I keep hearing people pirating game just so they can try them out and then buy the actual game... WTF?!

1. You literally stole a copy of the full game.
2. Just because you can buy a copy doesn't mean the one you stole should of been on your computer in the first place.
3. What's going to stop you from just running off with that stolen copy anyway? It's the full game and you don't need to do anything else.
4. Um... don't do it?

First thing: that's not what 'literally' means, and secondly: you assume that pirates don't have a conscience.

How many other industries have a 'try before you buy' or a '30 day money back' policy? Not unheard of, not considered immoral, so.... why is it considered immoral to try before you buy with video games? Demos still exist, but not for all games. Why do demos exist in the first place? Try before you buy.

What's more, not all piracy occurs before the sale because of horrible and hard to use DRM that takes away from the gaming experience.

 

[Savagezion]

-Snip-

You may have heard by now that recently released PC game Demigod has been thoroughly raped by pirates, to the point where, at one point, only 12% of the title's online users were legitimate customers. That is pretty damn harsh, and developer Stardock has some equally harsh words to say about it.

"Demigod is heavily pirated," writes Stardock boss Brad Wardell. "And make no mistake, piracy pisses me off.

"If you?re playing a pirated copy right now, if you?re one of those people on Hamachi or GameRanger playing a pirated copy and have been for more than a few days, then you should either buy it or accept that you?re a thief and quit rationalizing it any other way."

-Snip-

Haha, I love Brad Wardell. That isn't sarcastic either. He is great for the industry and it is a shame this happened. Notice the part in his quote "for more than a few days". This guy actually gets it. Pirates should be buying Stardock's stuff just to support him and his views within the industry.

There is slightly more to that story though. (Just note the part that states "at one point".)

Here:http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/04/demigod-sales-triumph-over-piracy.ars

Now it isn't slanted for the sake of this thread.

 

[Screamarie]

While I know there are big money and industry parts to it, for me it comes down to one thing. It's stealing.

You can try and pretty it up, tell me you're not hurting anyone, you're not taking anything that has a phsyical body, but lots of people put YEARS of time and effort to make that with the intention of selling it for profit to pay their bills.

It's stealing. End of discussion. The only time I do not have any problem with pirating is if you can't find an actual copy of it because it's too old or it's not sold in your country.

It is not stealing, nor is it theft.
It is copyright infringement.

The law says so, so please stop insisting that it is.
I'd rather discuss the implications and impact of piracy.

According to dictionary.com - to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force.

Yes, it is copyright infringement but that doesn't mean it's not stealing as well.

Also, you are not the king of these forums. If you wish to discuss the implications and impact of piracy then you may do so, but that doesn't mean I can't answer the question of "why am I against it?" that the original poster posed. Stop pretending that you know better than everyone else.

Then stop claiming that piracy is something that it is not.

From Wikipedia:

The actus reus of theft is usually defined as an unauthorized taking, keeping or using of another's property which must be accompanied by a mens rea of dishonesty and/or the intent to permanently deprive the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use

You are not the king of criminal law.
And under the law piracy is not the same as theft.

Stop pretending that you know better than the law.

If you noticed I never denied it wasn't copyright infringement.

I never said I knew better than the law. I only said that to me, it's theft. By my understanding of stealing, pirating on the web is taking the property of another, the property of the developer and publisher.
The original post was about if piracy is wrong in a moral sense. Stealing is wrong in a moral sense. To me piracy is stealing. Therefore piracy is wrong in a moral sense. I'm not discussing the law. I'm discussing the moral implications.

 

[SwagLordYoloson]

If I sell potatoes and I am earning an Insane Profit. I lose a potential of 20% sales due to you making cardboard cut outs of Potatoes and handing them out, sure I don't need those sales, but I fucking want them for more money. So I can buy a new Benz, you know why? cause they are my fucking Potatoes.

 

[Hexenwolf]

Because Piracy has the capacity to Kill the Video Game Entertainment Industry.

When it comes down to it, the investors in the companies hold the purse strings. If they can't see a viable profit to be made in the venture of 'make video games' simply because a huge chunk of the profit is lost to Theft... then they will just take their large bags of money and go else where. Invest in something that has safer or more reliable returns.

No more money = You won't see games like Modern Warfare 3 or Skyrim.

Although it is very 'gloom and doom'-y.
But it is something that is entirely capable.

it is undoubtable that many major investors have stopped putting money into Design studios and publishing companies simply because they did not feel that a +30-40% loss of profit due to Theft was acceptable.

But Skyrim and Modern Warfare 3 have just sold millions of copies. I remain unconvinced that piracy has the capacity to destroy the industry, poor sales are what could kill the industry, and although sometimes piracy may contribute to that it is silly to say that piracy is the only reason. Personally I wish that publishers would be more honest and say "please don't pirate our games because we want more money" not the current rhetoric they spew that all game sales go into some mythic "new game fund" and that by buying games you are directly contributing to the next game.

You ARE directly contributing to the next game. The three main things you mentioned the money going towards were: repaying production debts (if the company goes under due to debts, then they're not making new games), repaying investors (ditto previous statement + insures future investors), and investing in the future of the company (this is simply a long-term version of keeping the company afloat: which is better when you win the lottery, blowing all the money immediately and then going back to your old life or investing it and living comfortably for the rest of your life?)

As for your actual original question, is it morally wrong to pirate? As wrong as it is to steal. A lot of people get hung up on whether or not it's technically "theft," but ultimately that's just semantics. Whether it's theft, or a different harmful act that requires a different name, (like oh, I don't know, piracy), you are still taking something you did not create without permission.

 

[haruvister]

Did the film lose money? Was it torrented a significant number of times?

I understand how this might not apply, but a film that gains exposure a lot of exposure via torrent, is more likely to make money than a film that that is so unknown no one even wants to torrent it

Too early to say if the film is going to make money. I take issue with the idea of torrents being a barometer of success because this would appear to presuppose that pirates are using torrent sites as some kind of try-before-you-buy service, which as I mentioned before seems hopelessly optimistic.

I realise you're generally talking about AAA games. But again, who makes that distinction? Something like Dead Island presented itself as a AAA title, yet we'd be kidding ourselves if we thought Deep Silver had the clout of, say, Bethesda. Does that make Dead Island only a AA game? And so do we pirate it a bit less than Skyrim..?

 

[Knusper]

Well sure if you pirate a big game, it's not going to be felt so much, but it ruins PC gaming for the rest of us. This is why we only get crappy console ports for most of our games. However, no amount of whining going to change much, and it's a shame.

 

[mcattack92]

One good thing I see from piracy is that it generates interest in a particular series. If a game is torrented and the player enjoys it, they may be more willing to then shell out money for the game or to purchase the sequel.

I know that a lot of Australians (Including myself) who torrent tv shows is because that we normally have to wait some time before they even grace our shores with their pressence. We generally need to wait upward of several months before the teasers for that season or series are shown on our tv stations.

Even though I have torrented games and TV shows, the ones I have enjoyed the most, I have gone out and actualy purchased.I mainly torrent games because they may not have had a demo or trial.

 

[Sparcrypt]

Such a stupid argument this one. I have friends who INSIST to me that because it's copying it's not stealing. They tell me 'if I copy a car, I haven't taken anything so it's fine!'. Yeah. Tell that to the people who made the car who will now go broke because they only sold one and everyone else copied it for no cost.

At the end of the day, a bunch of people have invested their time, skills and money into a product. If you feel that you are entitled to enjoy that product without giving anything back to those people then you're pretty much an idiot.

I *really* don't care if people pirate games. Honestly I don't. But people who try and insist there is nothing 'wrong' about it are annoying. Then you get the ones who say 'but the games industry does THIS.. and THAT.. and those things annoy me! So I feel that entitles me to download all their stuff for free. Somehow.'

..

What is WRONG with you? If you don't like how a company does something, don't play their games - voting with your wallet is great. And again, if you want to download their stuff for free because of the bad things they did then fine, go nuts. I don't care. But don't try and tell me you're entitled to their products for free. You're not. They make it, they set a price and then you either buy or not. Those are the only moral choices. You're free to make other choices (ie, pirate) but grow a pair and just admit you know it's wrong and that you plain don't care.

Think of it this way - would you say stealing a game from a store is wrong? Most would say yes. Well, that has the same effect on the game devs as downloading it - ie, you get to play their game for free. Granted it also hurts the retailer but purely from the dev point of view, no difference.

 

[Olrod]

If I borrow a book from a Library, is that stealing?

What about if I photocopy all the pages so I can keep the photocopies when I return the book?

If you're depriving another person of having a copy of that game, it's stealing. Piracy isn't actually "stealing" even if it isn't a very nice thing to do.

 

[Arrzarr]

I see piracy as wrong. Unless there is no other reasonable way to get the content. Piracy is the theft of intellectual property.

The awkward bit in my eyes is defining reasonable. In this I agree with extra credits in being unable to get the game in your country or the game being so old that there is nowhere still selling it.

now for a shameless plug for WWW.GOG.COM or good old games who make old games like dungeon keeper, alpha centauri and others work in a DRM-free environment.

 

[Yopaz]

I pretty much agree with you.
I mean, piracy is the lost of a potential sale, but all of the top pirated games are still selling massively well and are still making a fuckload of money for the creators of the game.
It isn't good, but I don't think it is as bad as a lot of people here make it out to be.

I take it you missed the part about Alan Wake being the most pirated game on 360 in 2010 yet it's not what you'd call a huge sale success.

OT: Is it morally wrong to take something that will be a loss for one party that isn't needed in order to save lives? Stealing food to support your family is stealing, but it is heavily debated if it's morally wrong or not. Stealing a luxury item "because you want it" is not a good reason. Piracy is morally wrong and the attitude that "The game will sell tons of copies anyway" is the worst.
Piracy is bad. Not as bad as the industry claims, but still pretty bad. It hurts publishers and customers.

 

[katsabas]

Depends wholly on the game. I am not gonna pirate something like Unreal Tournament. I went out and bought the anthology even though I did have a cracked CD. I never pirate console games cause they are much harder to program from my own POV.

But. And this is a biiiiiig but. I will post an example of when I am gonna pirate a game.

I wanted to play Diablo II since I was 12. I always put it off in favor of something more urgent or a game I liked even more. Now, this week, I took my brother's cds to install it and while they didn't seem to have any scratches on them, I couldn't install the game. All that, while we paid for both the game and the LOD expansion. It can't be fixed cause there is something missing from the cds. So I got mad and installed a cracked version. I am loving it so far.

And then, Diablo III comes along.

Excited as I was cause I didn't know I want that game, I started browsing for prices. Found a special edition, a normal edition, reasonable money to spend on a PC game. But then I started getting burned by the fucking minute.

I can't pause the game ? No offline single player ? Password every time I decide to play ? Kicked if I decide to head out for an hour and then come back ? I am willing to pay full price on a game and you are questioning my trust by not only actually 'chipping' me so you can ID me every time I wanna play, but not allowing me to pause my game ? No Blizzard. You are not gonna make me grow out roots on my chair.

I agree with what Daniel and the others said about piracy on Extra Credits and I am with them. Ergo, 'pirating a game means that you are ready to put up with its flaws and that you think the game is worth playing inspite of them'. In that case, yeah, pirating would be wrong.

Here comes the but.

BUT. The reason I am gonna wait for a cracked version of Diablo III is because it will make an internet connection useless, allow me to pause without getting kicked and not question my trust while I pay 100 bucks for a limited edition. The cracked edition will make mincemeat of the flaws.

Like I said, it depends on the game.

 

[Arrzarr]

If I borrow a book from a Library, is that stealing?

What about if I photocopy all the pages so I can keep the photocopies when I return the book?

If you're depriving another person of having a copy of that game, it's stealing. Piracy isn't actually "stealing" even if it isn't a very nice thing to do.

sorry to torch your strawman but photocopying every page of a book and rebinding them is exactly the same. Also, there is a similar system with games, it's just that the rental price for a library is often £0 while a game which has had a much larger initial investment has a higher rental price.