Poll: When did WW2 begin?

[TheIronRuler]

When Poland was invaded.

Germany broke the treaty of versaille and thus the allies and Axis were at it again. Okay, Germany had violated the treaty many times within that year but it was Poland to call help from the English and French.

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If going by that logic, I think that the abandonment of Czechoslovakia in Munich was the beginning of the war.

 

[fix-the-spade]

I'd say 1937 as that was the beginning of full scale open war, up until that point there had been various incidents, but they had been relatively small scale. After 1937 the fighting wouldn't stop until 1945, that other powers didn't get involved is largely irrelevant, they were drawn into an ongoing conflict in the far east. The European war started up somewhere in the middle of all that, thanks Adolf!

Actually, weren't Brazil and Argentina on the verge of joining the Axis in 1940?

They kind of were (both have large German immigrant populations, larger then), but the prospect of getting into a shooting war with the British Empire meant logic prevailed, so officially at least they remained neutral (But German warships regularly ran for South American ports). Then Pearl Harbour kicked off and the prospect of fighting the Empire and the States at once made them all neutral powers by default.

 

[Gabanuka]

I'm gonna say the invasion of Poland. That's when the shit hit the fan and the clusterfuck began.

Though really war was inevitable for years. Just to be a hipster I'm gonna say January 17, 1936. When you go on the radio saying "Guns will make us powerful; butter will only make us fat" wars going to happen.

 

[mad825]

When Poland was invaded.

Germany broke the treaty of versaille and thus the allies and Axis were at it again. Okay, Germany had violated the treaty many times within that year but it was Poland to call help from the English and French.

.
If going by that logic, I think that the abandonment of Czechoslovakia in Munich was the beginning of the war.

What logic may I ask?

Both of the world wars were started-off by the superpowers fighting each other.

 

[Commissar Sae]

I'm going to be 'that guy' and say that 'WWII' is a misnomer... the first 'world war' was the Seven Years' War (which lasted nine years... -_- 1754-1763).

Anyway, I'm... conflicted on this if we're just talking about my background. I'm Chinese... so it started in 1938... but I'm also a Brit... so it started in 1939... but as far as it becoming a 'world war' it started in 1941.

So, there are arguments for the core conflict from which WWII stemmed, but it can be argued as to the degree to which each local conflict contributed to the global impact of the war at large. *shrug*

Damn, beat me to it. Was just teaching my class about the Seven Years War and explained how it was really WWI.

OT: I always considered the war to have started with the invasion of Manchuria, but that comes more from my studies of East Asian history than any real logical reason. The Brits and the Americans get involved at that point but the fighting doesn't really start for them until 1939 and 1941 respectively. Though there were various British and Canadian embassy troops in China that were involved in fighting as early as 1937.

 

[TheIronRuler]

When Poland was invaded.

Germany broke the treaty of versaille and thus the allies and Axis were at it again. Okay, Germany had violated the treaty many times within that year but it was Poland to call help from the English and French.

.
If going by that logic, I think that the abandonment of Czechoslovakia in Munich was the beginning of the war.

What logic may I ask?

Both of the world wars were started-off by the superpowers fighting each other.

.
"Okay, Germany had violated the treaty many times within that year but it was Poland to call help from the English and French."
Germany had violated the treaty many times. My example shows the aggressive steps Hitler made on Czechoslovakia. Remember this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO725Hbzfls
Yep. War.

 

[Commissar Sae]

When Hitler wasn't accepted into art school.

I would have preferred another bad artist to what Hitler became.

He was actually pretty good.

Yeah he was, but the popular art styles at the time were much more abstract, and so he was refused for not painting in a sufficiently modern style. This was the kind of painting they wanted him to be making.

Spoiler

 

[TheIronRuler]

I've had a chat with some of my buddies about the beginning of WW2 - specifically, when did it begin? We all knew that September 1st, 1939 was the 'official' beginning of the war, since this is the date most historians agree upon, but I was still not convinced.

Here are the number of options for you to choose from, and my explanations:
1.1931, September 18. Mukden Incident. Japan invades Manchuria and establishes a puppet state there [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukden_Incident], Manchukuo [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchukuo]. This may seem harmless, but this is the beginning of Japanese meddling in the Chinese remains of the Qing dynasty.
2. 1937, July 7-9. Marco Polo Bridge Incident [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo_Bridge_Incident], which sparked the incursion of Japan into Chinese soil and the Sino-Japanese war which only ended in '45.
3. 1938, March 11 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss#1938], Annexation of Austria.
4. 1935, October [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Italo-Abyssinian_War], Italian-Ethiopian war.
5. Invasion of Poland by Germany, 1939, September 1. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland]
6. Pearl Harbor bombing. 1941, 7-8 December. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor] 8th of December had the USA officially enter the war.
7. 1938, 30 September. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement] The betrayal at Munich, where Czechoslovakia was royally screwed by its allies.

We had three dates in mind, but because I didn't want the thread to be about our discussion I also added 4 more dates to the mix. They may seem like the stepping stones towards WW2... you're probably right. Still, aggression can also be manifested in diplomacy.

As a historian myself, I can most assuredly tell you that September 1st is NOT the date most historians agree upon. It is the date most American highschools (and presumedly, European Secondary School) text books teach. There is a HUGE difference.

Historians argue over all of the dates you just mentioned. Some also extend it to the late 40's due to a number of subsequent wars that were sparked because of the WWII (directly or indirectly).

In my opinion, Japan sparked the war PROBABLY with its initial invasion of Manchuria (Mukden Incident), but given the relative peace of for a few years following that, I would then say probably 1935.

The reality of what you bring up is that WWII really was a bunch of words over a period of a couple decades all bunched together.

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I'll tell you the truth here - I had this argument with my internet buddies and they all yelled at me and told me the war started at 1939 while I insisted that it started on 1937 in the Marco-Polo bridge Incident. I brought this up and added some options that don't fit at all (Like the Munich agreement with Czechoslovakia and the Anschluss with Austria.

Did you really think I can start a proper debate here in the off-topic section? I would get ignored to death. If you want we can start a chat about this here. Japan left the League of Nations in '33. Hitler left the League of Nations in '33. Italy left the League in '36. With the anti-Comintern alliance, the forces of the Axis were already obvious before the war even started.

 

[Bill Nye the Zombie]

When Hitler wasn't accepted into art school.

No, no, no, it was when Hitler wasn't killed by a gas attack, or while fighting in WWI.

 

[TheIronRuler]

I've had a chat with some of my buddies about the beginning of WW2 - specifically, when did it begin? We all knew that September 1st, 1939 was the 'official' beginning of the war, since this is the date most historians agree upon, but I was still not convinced.

Here are the number of options for you to choose from, and my explanations:
1.1931, September 18. Mukden Incident. Japan invades Manchuria and establishes a puppet state there [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mukden_Incident], Manchukuo [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchukuo]. This may seem harmless, but this is the beginning of Japanese meddling in the Chinese remains of the Qing dynasty.
2. 1937, July 7-9. Marco Polo Bridge Incident [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo_Bridge_Incident], which sparked the incursion of Japan into Chinese soil and the Sino-Japanese war which only ended in '45.
3. 1938, March 11 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss#1938], Annexation of Austria.
4. 1935, October [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Italo-Abyssinian_War], Italian-Ethiopian war.
5. Invasion of Poland by Germany, 1939, September 1. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland]
6. Pearl Harbor bombing. 1941, 7-8 December. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor] 8th of December had the USA officially enter the war.
7. 1938, 30 September. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement] The betrayal at Munich, where Czechoslovakia was royally screwed by its allies.

We had three dates in mind, but because I didn't want the thread to be about our discussion I also added 4 more dates to the mix. They may seem like the stepping stones towards WW2... you're probably right. Still, aggression can also be manifested in diplomacy.

As a historian myself, I can most assuredly tell you that September 1st is NOT the date most historians agree upon. It is the date most American highschools (and presumedly, European Secondary School) text books teach. There is a HUGE difference.

Historians argue over all of the dates you just mentioned. Some also extend it to the late 40's due to a number of subsequent wars that were sparked because of the WWII (directly or indirectly).

In my opinion, Japan sparked the war PROBABLY with its initial invasion of Manchuria (Mukden Incident), but given the relative peace of for a few years following that, I would then say probably 1935.

The reality of what you bring up is that WWII really was a bunch of words over a period of a couple decades all bunched together.

.
I'll tell you the truth here - I had this argument with my internet buddies and they all yelled at me and told me the war started at 1939 while I insisted that it started on 1937 in the Marco-Polo bridge Incident. I brought this up and added some options that don't fit at all (Like the Munich agreement with Czechoslovakia and the Anschluss with Austria.

Did you really think I can start a proper debate here in the off-topic section? I would get ignored to death. If you want we can start a chat about this here. Japan left the League of Nations in '33. Hitler left the League of Nations in '33. Italy left the League in '36. With the anti-Comintern alliance, the forces of the Axis were already obvious before the war even started.

Wait, I don't get it, what would we be arguing over? haha. As far as I can tell, we agree on everything. Except maybe that your friends disagree that it started before 1939, but I'm assuming you're American and/or European, in which case, of course they do - discussions with internet buddies is hardly an academic setting. Take any sort of upper level History course at a university on the subject and you'll begin to see the stark contrasts of opinion. That's what I was referring to. China, for example, considers it to have begun in 1931/37.

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Yeah, my internet buddies are mostly American/Canadian, this is where I got the 1941 argument from (A bloke argued that since it didn't involve America, it wasn't a WORLD war, so it started in 1941).
I'm neither, look at my profile and you'll see my country of origins.

I don't think "China" was "China" at the time. Manchuria wasn't exactly the Qing Empire it used to be, and as the Cliques were not very friendly they didn't often rush to the aid of each other. I don't think I can consider 1931 as the start of the war, since the actual puppet state was made at around '32-'33, and later you had a time of relative peace with a hot border.

 

[Product Placement]

It's entirely possible to argue that both WWI and WWII should be classified as the same war, with a pause in the middle, since the cause of the second war directly leads to the first. Same thing was done to a series of conflicts between Britain and France, called "The Hundred Years' War". The First World War was essentially a grudge match, intended to settle age old scores. Germany had a master plan to end the war quickly and it failed spectacularly. The second war had them use a revised version of the exact same plan, which allowed them to steamroll over Europe.

These conflicts are called World Wars, because they were intercontinental, what with England, France, Germany, oh hell... most of the European countries having off shore colonies, somewhere in the world. Yes, these are not the first intercontinental conflicts, and they're certainly not the last ones, but the sheer scale and manpower lost in these two conflicts make them inherently unique.

So yeah, you can technically call it the same war and thus say it started in 1914.

But since we do classify them as separate wars, the Second World war officially started in 1939. Sure, China and Japan were having their own fight, earlier, but it's considered a separate conflict that eventually merged into WWII.

 

[UrieHusky]

The conflicts and wars were just that, conflicts and wars.

The WORLD war started in 39, that's when the world powers got involved, I thought that was the definition..?
Really surprised there's any disagreement on this. I don't doubt the events that led up to 39 had a significant impact on it starting, but it didn't by definition start until the world powers jumped in as I said.

That's what I've always been taught so *shrugs*

 

[eternal-chaplain]

I honestly think that the Convention of Kanagawa in 1854 set things in motion, as before that point in time, Japan had been in a self-imposed isolation. When Commodore Perry showed with weaponry that outpaced theirs by a century, they obviously had no choice but to open back up. However, they still wanted to retain that age of isolation, and that is ultimately why they began the first Sino-Japanese war in 1894 along with the second in 1937 & subsequently invaded Manchuria.

To me it all started in 1854, and the conflicts after that just rolled up more and more mass until people began noticing it. We never consider it the beginning simply because the battles are just assigned to different wars.

 

[Gameslayer_93]

1939, since while America didn't start fighting until 1941, they were providing supplies and support to the Allied Forces and so were technically involved in the war in 1939

 

[WoW Killer]

Just because nobody mentioned it yet: you could say the European conflict began with the Spanish Civil War in 1936.

But it's all about that title of "WW2", which is an arbitrary thing in itself. If September 1939 is what's generally agreed upon, then I won't argue against it.

 

[Shock and Awe]

While the conflict began in 1931 with the invasion of Manchuria I would tag the beginning of the war with the textbook answer September 1939. I say this because that is when it truly became a World War. Before that it was simply Japan's wars of expansion. When Germany invaded Poland however it became a World Conflict as it suddenly involved not just Easy Asia, but Europe, Africa, and Australia as well. It became a global conflict.

However, if you really want to be an ass about it you could say that it was simply a continuation of the first World War seeing as it had almost all the same players on mostly the same sides. But thats a harder argument to make.

 

[TheIronRuler]

While the conflict began in 1931 with the invasion of Manchuria I would tag the beginning of the war with the textbook answer September 1939. I say this because that is when it truly became a World War. Before that it was simply Japan's wars of expansion. When Germany invaded Poland however it became a World Conflict as it suddenly involved not just Easy Asia, but Europe, Africa, and Australia as well. It became a global conflict.

However, if you really want to be an ass about it you could say that it was simply a continuation of the first World War seeing as it had almost all the same players on mostly the same sides. But thats a harder argument to make.

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...How? Japan was on the side of the Americans in WW1. The Ottomans that helped the Germans were a tiny player in WW2 (as the Turks). The reason why the same players were involved were because of god-damned France not building its fortifications in the Belgian borders, where Germany crossed and went to Paris... TWICE.

 

[TheIronRuler]

Just because nobody mentioned it yet: you could say the European conflict began with the Spanish Civil War in 1936.

But it's all about that title of "WW2", which is an arbitrary thing in itself. If September 1939 is what's generally agreed upon, then I won't argue against it.

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Hmm... You make a great point. In this the Soviets supported the republicans and the Italians/Germans supported the nationalists. I can't believe I forgot that.

 

[NightHawk21]

September 1939, but you're actually missing a date OP. Some people say that the war started on September 1st with the invasion of Poland, while other say it started on September 4th (or something like that; a few days later) when the rest of Europe started declaring war.

 

[TheIronRuler]

September 1939, but you're actually missing a date OP. Some people say that the war started on September 1st with the invasion of Poland, while other say it started on September 4th (or something like that; a few days later) when the rest of Europe started declaring war.

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Ah dear lord, that's three days. It's also the reason why I didn't put the Pearl Harbor attack and later the USA declaration of war (Which was a day later!) as different dates.