Poll: Would we all be cool with a female Link?

[garcian67]

Okay, just to start off I think we've reached an agreement on a lot of things, so I'm only replying to the few points you made that I still take issue with.

Excellent.

Zelda is a the reincarnation of the goddess Hylia. This is the first reason "Zelda can't be a guy".

Only the Zelda in Skyward Sword is specifically stated to be the reincarnation of Hylia, the rest are just descendants who inherent some power through the royal bloodline. I don't think it says anywhere that EVERY Zelda is a reincarnation of the goddess. Not that it even matters since there's no rule saying you can't reincarnate as someone of a differnet gender anyway.

This point is where our disagreement is, apparently. Zelda, in any game (except maybe spirit tracks, never played that one so no clue) is always Hylia.

According to who? You? That sounds like an assumption you've made?

In skyward sword, it is stated explicitly that this cycle, the goddess, the hero, and the evil, will continue ad infinitum. Unlike many of my points, this has been directly told to us by Nintendo.

No it hasn't. Yes, the CYCLE will repeat. The cycle of Ganon rising and Link defeating him with the power of Zelda and the triforce. This doesn't mean that Zelda will be always be a reincarnation of Hylia each time.

I followed your suggestion and actually did some research to confirm this. Here's the wiki page for [a href="http://zeldawiki.org/Hylia"]Hylia[/a]. Notice the part where it says:

"Beginning as a divine entity, she was later, by her own choice, reborn into a mortal form as the first incarnation of Zelda, making her the true ancestor to the Royal Family of Hyrule and explaining the magical powers passed down within their bloodline."

Keywords: first incarnation

All of this is true, unequivocally.

If you read the page for [a href="http://zeldawiki.org/Princess_Zelda"]Zelda[/a] it basically says the same thing from Zelda's perspective. The first Zelda in Skyward Sword was the reincarnation of Hylia, every following Zelda was simply inheriting the power through the Hyrulian bloodline.

It isn't a matter of simple inheritance, however. Every member of the royal family possesses some measure of Hylia's power due to blood relation with her first mortal form. This much is known and agreed upon.

As to the Zelda's herself, I look to the numerous occasions where she, in-game, must be "restored" or "awakened" in order to defeat the evil. (wind waker, minish cap, spirit tracks where she is separated from her soul) I see this as the revival of the true hylia, while the whole family possesses some power, the Zeldas we have seen are the result of the entirety of hylia's dormant power being realized.

Never, anywhere, is it stated that each Zelda is herself a reincarnation of Hylia, and it's strongly implied that that isn't the case. If each Zelda is actually Hylia herself, Nintendo hasn't said so to my knowledge.

No, we aren't lucky enough to have such a thing stated explicitly. Whether each Zelda is Hylia herself or merely possesses a measure of Hylia's power, the argument at large is not greatly weakened.

That assumption also brings up the problem of what happens when Zelda births a daughter, because both mother and daughter should inherit the Hylian power, yet they're alive at the same time. Are they somehow both Hylia?

No. Hylia only takes on mortal form when she is needed to combat the evil. This is her role in destiny. This, again, is explained, directly in skyward sword. It is told to the audience by Hylia herself.

Then why is Zelda's power passed down through her bloodline as stated in the games and every wiki page about her or the royal family?

If it's simply Hylia taking human form why would she always have to be a direct descendent of the first Zelda? Couldn't she just be any random chick, or guy for that matter?

The power is passed to every member of the family, but we have only ever seen young princess zeldas use it. There was a time when a king of hyrule used the triforce and (likely) the power granted to him by hylia to keep hyrule at peace for a long time, but this is never the setting for a game, only told in the lore.

As to why it must be a member of the royal family, it has to do with the bloodline. When hylia chose to be reborn as a mortal, she essentially gave up a measure of her omnipotence. Her spirit appears to be bound to the bloodline started with the first princess Zelda in skyward sword. This is evidenced by the terrible events that occur in the downfall branch of the timeline, after Ganon exterminates every descendant of the goddess and is able to take complete control.

In this way, she cannot be a random person because her spirit must follow the blood. At least, this is true for what we have seen so far.

Just as Link always possesses the spirit of the hero, and Ganon/Gannon is Demise's malice given form. This is nigh on indisputable, as laid down, explicitly, in skyward sword.

It seems like there's a difference between being possessed by a spirit, and actually being the literal reincarnation of a goddess, which is what you are claiming every Zelda is.

There is a difference. Link, for example, in most adventures does not appear to possess the spirit of the hero for much of his life. He is a simple boy/man until something spurs him to heroism, and he then becomes the hero. In the case of Zelda things operate differently. The hylian royal family has an intimate connection with the goddess, being that the progenitor of the line was the first reincarnation. Hylia does not use every family member as a vessel, though it is likely she acts as a kind of conscience or advisor as hinted at in A Link to the Past. When she takes direct physical form, it is as princess Zelda. It is always as princess Zelda, but that does not make every Zelda hylia, merely all of the Zeldas we have seen.

But why? you ask, are all of the zeldas Hylia?

In three sentences: Hylia is necessary to defeat the evil which threatens the land. Were she to not appear, the hero would fail and the world would be conquered/destroyed/enslaved and so on. This hasn't happened (with the exception of one branch of OoT) and thus every Zelda we have seen is Hylia.

Please provide evidence of this assertion. I've already provided my counter evidence above.

Evidence of which assertion?

I shall attempt to cover all of them:

About every Zelda being Hylia, the three sentences written are the core of my reasoning, this taken with the notes further up should describe why I think this, and you are free to dispute that reasoning.

As to the statement that is appears Link doesn't possess the spirit of the hero for much of his life: Here I am talking about the length of Link's life before he becomes a hero. In OoT he is thrown into the cycle fairly young, but even there he must prove his courage by purifying the deku tree. In Twilight princess he is in his mid/late teens before he does anything outright courageous, it is when he attempts to save Talo. In wind waker he is a normal boy until he sets out to save his sister. In all of these instances, there is a period of his life where, it is implied, he does not appear outwardly special. This, to my mind, shows that the spirit is selective about who it chooses to inhabit, and it picks someone who has demonstrated courage and has a reason for fighting (saving a loved one usually seems to be the theme) beyond merely participating in the cycle.

I don't think stopping the (arguably) most powerful being in Hyrule is a fair requirement for proving that one has courage. Ganon can only be stopped by the power of the triforce, but he's special.

That's just the thing though, Zelda did stop ganon by herself. In OoT, after link returns to the past. He warns Zelda about what will happen if ganon is left unchecked. She uses this knowledge to prevent his rise to power and ganon is executed. She didn't do this on her own, without the hero, because she lacked the courage to take such a brash action (ganon was already influential and well-liked at the court).

You're still missing the point. I'm not talking about her possessing the courage to stop Ganondorf. I'm just talking about courage in general. You were basically describing her as a big pussy who couldn't do anything physical or dangerous on her own. And I think that's untrue in at least several of the games.

I will address this later on in the statements about blind courage and character flaws, as I believe it will fit best there.

Zelda has proven in many instances that she can be a bold, daring character

I wouldn't go that far. What Zelda has shown, through gameplay with the certain boss fights, and in OoT with sheikh, is that when she must act, she will, and she will take a wise action.

You can call it "wise action" if you want. It doesn't change the fact that she often puts herself in dangerous situations that a more fearful person would shrink away from. She may be doing it for a logical reason, but it still requires courage I'd argue.

I also find it weird that you treat "blind courage" like a positive trait over rational courage. The times in Windwaker when Link tries to charge blindly at Ganondorf he nearly dies and only survived by other people coming to his rescue.

I am not treating his blind courage as a positive trait, as I mentioned before, without being tempered by Zelda at several points throughout the series, Link would have been killed before he was able to amass enough power to actually defeat ganon.

"when Link tries to charge blindly at Ganondorf he nearly dies and only survived by other people coming to his rescue"
A thousand time this. This idea is a staple of the series. It goes all the way back to the base conflict between the three virtues, courage alone won't stop powerful malice, it needs to be applied with wisdom.

Zelda doesn't generally put herself in dangerous situations though. Tetra does in the beginning of Wind Waker, but she is somewhat of a special case and is seemingly unaware of her true identity. Even conceding that example, however, it still stands that Zelda makes choices without the type of courage displayed by the hero. In twilight princess, for example, when Zant invades she surrenders rather than go to war. It can be argued this also takes a type of courage, and it does, but it is different from the virtue embodied by the triforce. Back to OoT, she hides as Sheik, rather than clear the temples and awaken the sages, despite possessing the power to.

In boss fights, all that is really shown is that, in conjunction with the hero, she is a badass. When Link is there to support her, she will do whatever is needed to defeat ganon, but when Link is absent, this initiative is largely absent as well.

His disregarding logic seems like a flaw to me. I'd argue that it's his amount of courage, not his lack of reason, that makes him special. Of course this is all very speculative and a bit off topic.

It is most certainly a flaw. It is Link's biggest flaw, and one reason both the hero and the goddess (or Zelda, since we still have disagreement here) are needed to stop Ganon. We have seen what happens to Zelda when link is not there, She disguises her identity and attempts to avoid Ganon altogether (OoT, while link is maturing). We can assume what would happen to Link should he attack ganon well before he is ready (basically any game in which link confronts ganon before the very end). It is this dependency I am referring to when I call Zelda timid. She has the power (at least in OoT) to defeat ganon on her own, but she doesn't act because it is risky. Link, on the other hand, almost actively tries to get himself killed due to rage. Zelda is incredibly wise, but almost too cerebral, she seems to believe that observation will make the right path clear to take, whereas link just wants to break some bones, no matter where that would leave him.

Zelda's flaw is that she's not enough like link and Link's flaw is that he isn't enough like Zelda, it harkens back to the theme of duality underlying the series.

Vice versa there are certainly instances where Link appears cowardly. (see anytime he encounters a redead)

Link does not appear cowardly in any sequence involving enemies, to my knowledge. Your comment about redheads I assume is directed towards to light flirting that occurs in the series? in which case bashful might be a better word? I am not sure of your meaning here.

I said "REDEAD" not "REDHEAD", as in these things:

Which literally paralyze Link with fear long enough to begin humping him like a catholic priest. I'm not trying to call Link a coward, I just want to point out that his courage has limits as well.

I honestly forgot those things existed and always just called them zombies. This can be viewed as his courage having limits, which it realistically must (just as ganon's power and Zelda's wisdom have limits). Or it could be argued that the scream they use to paralyze Link bypasses courage and is a more magical/biological effect, but this is conjecture and not very supportable.

In any case, it doesn't change the fact that Link's courage is his defining trait.

Record for Longest post?

Not even close. You must not have been here when Mass Effect 3 came out.

I can imagine.

 

[mattttherman3]

Hahahaha, this will never happen. Nintendo is far too happy with the status quo when it comes to zelda games. The last 2 were essentially the same with the exception of the skyward sword baddie being Gannon merged with the twisted metal clown.

 

[The_Lost_King]

I think it is just a stupid idea. We don't need to go around making popular characters female just because feminsm is a hot topic right now. If you want to have a game with a female main character go make a new IP. I have nothing against playing females in game, infact I have played females when there is a choice between male and female, I do ,however, have a problem with changing an established character's gender just because of feamles wanting more female character.

 

[Coakle]

My reasons for believing a strong connection between femininity and divinity in the LoZ universe in order of decreasing strength are as follows:
4)In OoT 5 of the 7 sages, or 4 of 6 not counting Zelda, are female.
5)In Wind Waker 2 out of 3 sages are female (neglecting Makar because makar is a plant without a gender
6)The Gerudo in OoT are lead in Ganon's absence by two witches who act as soothsayers. They were also Ganon's surrogate mothers and helped him hone his sorcery

There are some counter arguments to this, you can point out the several prominent male spirits in twilight princess, or the minor deities of certain tribes in wind waker and OoT being male, but I believe the feminine argument is stronger.

I would avoid using Sages to prove the connection between Divinity and Feminity. Sages seem to need a medium in order to use the power of the Goddesses (OOT: Medallions WW: Intruments TP: Mirror of Twilight, or Zelda herself), just like Link.

That gender shouldn't play any role in the duties of being a Sage is emphasized pretty heavily. Although girls are the majority for OOT, there are none in TP. Makor is characterized as a guy and his predecessor was a guy as well. It's also established that until a Sage's duties are over they cannot marry.

The existence of girl Sages supports the idea that a girl could be Link, since they are limited to using objects to work with divine power, despite their femininity. I don't think it's enough support, since the Sages' traits are tied closer to Zelda's than Link's.


I'd drop the 6th point as well. There are a lot of different types of magic in LoZ. The magic that Twinrova uses seems to be based off the ice and fire rod designs, which were made by Hylians. The magic Great Fairies and Zelda taps into is the divine stuff.

Off-Topic: Nice job making this thread into an interesting read. Olas too.

 

[Pink Gregory]

Here's an idea. Y'know how, at the end of Wind Waker, it's Link and Zelda battling Ganon as a team?

Take that idea and apply it to a game. Sure it does require having an NPC follower (or some kind of odd split control scheme) for the entire game, and that would require a lot of careful design to make work; but the dungeons in WW that involved Makar and Medli were interesting.

 

[Waddles]

Why make Link female? Just for the sake of it? If you wanted a female character you could, you know, make a new character

 

[Karadalis]

Sure why not... heck at this point Nintendo has tried everything else...

 

[The Material Sheep]

You know I wouldn't have an issue with female link. However I'd rather they just have a game based around Zelda. Ocarina of Time from the Shiek perspective could be cool since there is a lot of fill in the blank to deal with there. At the end of the day, I feel like gender swapping link is not needed when the series has a lot of good female characters already, that would be perfect for a protagonist of a Zelda game.

 

[Paprik]

For a very long time I actually thought Zelda was the main character and that it was a blonde girl. Bad art and name design is fun sometimes.

 

[nondescript]

Link is so androgynous that I don't think it matters one way or the other. He has no voice, he's only vague male to begin with, no obvious sexual leanings and all his skills could be picked up a "chosen one" that was a girl. Anyone upset by this suggestion I think is having a knee-jerk reaction to an established character. The name would probably change, but that's the only real masculine thing he has going for him.

 

[Savagezion]

That wiggle room is exactly why Link doesn't need to be a girl.

It goes both ways. The wiggle room can also be exactly why Link can be a women if Nintendo so chooses to.

I don't see a reason why you must change Link's gender to add depth here. The story isn't deep, pretty much anything'll do.

Nobody claimed that making Link a women for a game was going to add depth. At most people suggested that it might add interesting gameplay changes such as if said female Link was a Gerudo.

Gender bending Link by itself isn't some genious or in depth writing tool and it brings nothing to the table.

Who is claiming that a female Link will add more depth into the games?

Even in your example, it was making him a Gerudo that added anything. Which it added in the way of the story and him being Gerudo adds more than him swapping genitals. Hell, it's the only thing that adds anything and what it is trying to add is depth (through shifted perspectives) to the world and/or lore. Which can be done without a sex change.

It is shallow with nothing supporting it.

There is nothing really supporting a male Link either aside from being the default gender for 20 years simply due to fan familiarity.

Ah, so it has at least 1 thing supporting it then, doesn't it? Don't act like 27 years of being a iconic character in the gaming industry is not such a big deal either. I would say it is due to Miyamoto's vision, not fan familiarity. We are only familiar with it because that's how he made Link.

Gender bending is every bit as shallow as those saying the writing in the game already is.

Genderbending is only shallow to you. However for other people it can be a pretty fun and creative outlet. Look how popular the genderbent Adventure Time characters are. They got so popular that they were even thinking about doing an offshoot series. Nobody got their panties in a twist about that.

A fun and creative outlet? Because your avatar is a girl in green instead of a guy in green? You must have been overjoyed when Link got a red tunic and a blue tunic. Think of the possibilities...

Nice example comparing a 27 year old flagship franchise character with a TV show who has been on for like 2 years and had gender bent in like 1 year. Yeah, they are totally the same thing. I love Adventure Time and Avatar: TLA/Korra so yeah I am totally cool with gender bending being on the table. Even through reincarnation or without it specifically. My neices find it funny that often when they see me playing a game I am a playing a girl character. (Whcih I often do because they are around.) Yet, I am not only not cool with gender bending Link, I find it pointless and retarded. Especially over simply asking for a female counterpart. Nobody can tell me why this is "OK". "Let's mutilate a character cause we're bored with a series" is what I am seeing. I am not "OK" with that kind of mob mentality. God forbid you just don't buy it if you're bored.

The game isn't being sexist if it doesn't change Link and to do so would be pointless.

And nobody claimed that Link not being a woman was sexist either.

Not claimed, but passive aggressively implied.

...

This is also ignoring the fact that people in other fandoms have no issues with genderbending canon characters themselves. Games however seems to always make a big damn fuss about things like this like a single game featuring a female character as main as opposed to a male one will end the whole damn franchise in ashes.

The bolded part shows you are impying that not being cool with letting people gender bend Link is due to some sort of fear of female characters. (Which usually translates to sexism) It implies that this really isn't about Link, its about having a woman be the main character. More specifically, a male one no longer get to be the main character. If someone isn't OK with that (even though everyone I have seen in the thread is against change for the sake of change, not against female protagonists) they are on a sexist crusade to defend their boys club mentality. This goes back to a thread I made LONG ago about how this whole thing in gaming is no longer about solving the problem of females being underrepresented and misrepresented in the industry - its a witch hunt aimed to call out the community as sexist even if it means making shit up to do it.

 

[monkey_man]

I'm sure i would care as much as I would when another different zelda game came out, IE nill, but I wonder why?
Why would it be so important to make link female? Would Zelda be then transformed into a male, to just change up the theme of boy saves damsel? Surely it would be a good change, considering the current male oriented, dominated and in a simple collection of words: unfair bigoted and stupid, world; This would not be a bad thing. But why a Zelda game? what would be the point? another cashcow for Nintendo? another blatant amount of "new" things to be done with a female link and male zelda, in all sorts of wacky spin-offs? why? Why can't a studio just develop a new IP with "boy gets saved by girl" as the main theme?

If that isn't what OP intended, then I'm just reduced to why? I don't see the need for a game with a female link. link's been male for as long as he's been link. Same as the Doctor, in Doctor Who. He could have been female for the last regeneration, it would canonically be possible. It's just unneeded. Why mess up the maintained continuity for something not very important?

I see the need for an increased female representation in games and gaming in general, but I play Tomb Raider, I played Fallout and Skyrim as a female character once or twice, I've been Chell. There are some strong females in games, we don't need to turn men into women for that. We could just do with more new IP's, having either a broad cast of mixed race or gender (like left4dead), or a game about a strong/dorky/smart/heroic/interesting/shy/whatever girl on an important mission to safe the world or something. it has been done, it has been proven to work.

So no, I would technically not have a problem with a female link. I just fail to see the entire point of having her. The roles could be reversed (it has been done I think, same goes for mario&peach), but swapping the genders? nah. It would just be "lol let's see if we can pull it off", or "lol, female representatives will net us money"

Or even just having a female link save a female zelda, a new IP would just be so much better. It would actually have a chance to be great. A woman rescuing another woman, not for love not for shits and giggles, but because she actually needs saving. If a game would do this, and would do this properly, it could shine.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

I've always wanted Zelda to go the way of a certain other popular Nintendo franchise and have the player select genders, considering that's the purpose of link from what I'm told, to be a link between the players and the game world.

 

[Amir Kondori]

I played both NES versions growing up and also Link to the Past, which imo is the best of the bunch. Of course then I bought a Playstation and never played another Zelda game.

I would definitely play a Zelda game with a female Link, provided it was on a platform I could play it obviously, and have no problem with it.

 

[FriedRicer]

I don't mind genders at all. But when it comes to Zelda there seems to be to ways it is exists- the "Legend" which is retold but continues differently- and the world of Hyrule we actually play in. The latter wouldn't bother me gender-wise but the former seems to feel like its supposed to have a repeat in a certain manner damsel in distress and all. It may not have began that way, but a sense of camp does seem to come from the LoZ now that makes me want the genders the way they are for the traditional implications they once reflected.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

Why make Link female? Just for the sake of it? If you wanted a female character you could, you know, make a new character

Because Nintendo can't make new things, GET WITH THE PROGRAM! Jeez.

*Would (probably) buy a Wii-U for Fem Link*

 

[Lazule]

I wouldn't care... Link has little personality anyway. (Except Toon Link he is cool)

Also a female Link would be like asking for more The Legend of Zelda hentai, I'm down...

 

[infinity_turtles]

I'm against swapping out character details like this in general. I find the gamingentertainment industry gives too few fucks about brand clarity as is. Now, as a proper spin-off? I have less issues with that, but still think they'd be better served by a Zelda/Sheik, Gerudo, or even Midna game.

 

[scw55]

I don't think there is nothing at all that can stop Link being a female and Zelda being a male
(in less those names are gender specific in Hyrule-Universe).

Since the story is that they essentially are consistently reincarnated, there's nothing stopping those beings from being reborn as any gender. Since it seems to be genetic inheritance as well. You'd never get a pure-blood Zora being Link as an example.

It'd be interesting how Nintendo would deal with it. Early Link seemed slightly effeminate anyway with his short-cut tunic...

It would make the sex-roles more equal. But it might not affect the gender roles. I wouldn't want the male Zelda to be effeminate and female Link to be butch, because that would just say "manly traits = strong, female traits = weak". Pirate Zelda gaves us a strong female character that wasn't masculin... and then she discovered her destiny and devolved into a china doll.

I'm pretty sure either genders are equally capable of being kidnapped/spirit spliced from their body by a super demi-god, so they wouldn't need to make Male Zelda a wet blanket.

But surely a better game would be a Female Zelda rescuing a Male Link? Why gender swap when you can just role reversal?