Poll: Would you mind if Dark Souls had an easy mode

BloatedGuppy

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Hahahaha wow! I doff my hat to you, that might be the most effort anyone has put into a reply on these forums. You're being a particularly good sport, too, given how much shit I've served you. I am going to attempt to be concise in reply. My back is out, there's no way I'm typing this much.

viranimus said:
Wider assumes that the existing fanbase will remain. Given the outcry over it, it seems fairly safe to say that wont occur.
I don't think it's safe to say that at all. In sooth, neither you or I has anything even approaching reliable data on what might occur in terms of fanbase segmentation if From goes ahead and adds a difficulty slider to Dark Souls 2. The only people who MIGHT have that data are From themselves, who are the people talking about putting it in there in the first place.

viranimus said:
If a company willingly rejects their fanbase to "trade up" trying to reach a "larger audience" SHOULD they be rewarded for that type of loyalty to their customers?
There's no "should", it's a question of "if". I've seen this translation from "hardcore minority to a wider audience" before, most particularly with Bioware and Bethesda, and it seems to have paid off for them just fine. Bioware later went on to shoot themselves in the ass, but that was through ineptitude, not the market they targeted.

viranimus said:
While you are correct in this, as is life itself, everything is subjective. However, Just because someone finds it too difficult is not a reason to make it easier.
Of course it's not. And you go on to make a poetic point here about striving and not having everything handled to us and a culture of entitlement, and I understand that. What I'm trying to make YOU understand in turn is that we are not all born with the same abilities. I made an analogy of my own, earlier in the thread, of a guy graduating from Medical School and making the assumption that everyone could be a doctor if they applied themselves, they just lack his gumption. My girlfriend could play Dark Souls for 1,000 years and never get anything but more frustrated. My friend with two young kids couldn't be assed to repeat the same boss 20 times just to figure out his pattern so he could stop getting one shot 4 seconds into the fight. They'd just put the game down and never touch it again. And this is to say nothing of those who are too old, or too sick, or just lack the reflexes or strategic mindset. When I say "difficulty is subjective" I mean that for those people, and easier game might represent the same challenge that the harder game does for us. That's what difficulty sliders are all about.

viranimus said:
You personally do not care if a developer adds an extra feature to the game, so you think others who would are being unreasonable for doing so. So it does not matter WHAT justification they give, you dont see it as valid, because YOU dont care personally.
That's fair, I apologize.

viranimus said:
These are some of the reasons why the game exists, why the old school crowd gravitated and helped perpetuate the franchise. Its about personal pride, not sense of superiority.
Well, I am going to need to disagree there. That might be the case with you, but if you do not see the reek of sneering peen waving in the attitude and commentary of, at the very least, a very vocal minority of the DS community then you haven't been paying attention. Gaming is absolutely stuffed to the margins with people who want to use their ability with video games as a salve for their insecurities, and never shut up about how "hardcore" they are, or stop scoffing at the inability of others to echo their achievements. There's a reason you see so much hostility in discussions like this, and it's because individuals like that have poisoned the dialogue.

viranimus said:
Now, Im sorry, both analogies are dead on.
They're not. Immersion is subjective. Whether or not a gun actually exists to be used is objective. If you want a COD analogy, it would be adding an optional brawler mode, and then arguing that the existence of the brawler mode destroyed your ability to feel immersed in the gun mode.

viranimus said:
Knowing that makes it impossible to become fully immersed in the world because the threats the world present, even to those playing normal, no matter how hard it becomes you know that if the going gets rough you can make it easier on yourself with a simple reroll. Knowing that not only eliminates the immersion of being in that perilous world, it will actively alter not only your play style, but your experience in interacting with various NPCs. The ever present tension is gone. The ache when it feels like you are going to break your shield trigger button you are jamming it down so hard so as to not let it slip for a fraction of a second, Simply knowing that if you want all you have to do is speed run through easy mode to "learn" everything normal mode is going to throw at you so you can prepare accordingly instead of learning through trial and error. If people cannot accept that the difficulty IS a reason people choose to play this specific game and thus a rational argument against EM, there is no way that people playing for immersion in a world that IS broken specifically by the existence of an easy way out cannot be argued.
Now this is fair, and it's probably close to the argument I would give for why Dark Souls needs to be difficult in order to be rewarding. If someone told me they wanted to play through Dark Souls on God Mode, I'd say "Good lord, why?". Without the difficulty, it loses much of what makes it special.

NOW. THAT SAID.

You are AWARE I could download a trainer for this fucking thing today, if I wanted to? You're aware I could just farm souls and dramatically outlevel content, trivializing most of it...not through skill, but through tolerance for tedium? Heck, it's even EASIER than Everquest in that respect, as I don't need to make sure things are inside a con range in order to profit from their death. If I had the patience of Job, I could just farm the easiest opponent in the game for weeks. The ability to make Dark Souls dramatically easier, even with the push of a button, already exists. Is your immersion destroyed? Do you hate the game now?

viranimus said:
Look, pointing to advance placement in school is not a "flag" I have ever flown.
That's fine. But if you and I were having a debate, and I suddenly went off on a tangent about my precocious life as a gifted child and my whopping IQ, your eyes would roll right out of your head. It was a bizarre aside inserted at a suspicious junction.

viranimus said:
If it was just one or two people saying it, you might be right to dismiss them as self centered whining elitist crybabies who cant stand the idea of others having fun with the same toys. However we all know this isn't just one or two people.
As a repeat of the the point made above...we don't know that. We actually have no idea how many people feel this way. At all. I can certainly speculate that few if any have put as much thought into it as you have. And that a good many of them DO want the difficulty to remain fixed specifically FOR the less than flattering reasons often implied. How many? Who can say. No one is ever going to pay a polling company money to find out.

Anyway, cheers. Good discussion, you're a good sport. We don't agree, but I do hope whatever solution From comes up with for Dark Souls doesn't wreck it for you.
 

Exius Xavarus

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May 19, 2010
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lacktheknack said:
Exius Xavarus said:
lacktheknack said:
(and the various asshats who then trumpet how "it's not that hard")
It's really not that hard. While Dark Souls isn't exactly easy, per se, the difficulty of this game is greatly exaggerated. What people mistake for difficulty is a lack of explanation on every mechanic in the game, as if they're incapable of figuring things out themselves.

Sure there are some asshat doucheknob bosses such as the Crapra Demon, but I fail to see how our stance on how the game's difficulty is disproportionately blown way the hell up, makes us into asshats about it.
Well, your tone isn't helping. But the main thing that asshats do is brush off other players' comments because "they're incapable", and refuse to entertain the notion that maybe "knowing how" isn't quite the same thing as "easy to pull off".

I'm not saying you're an asshat, unless you're an asshat about it. Are you an asshat about the subject? If not, then don't worry about what I say.
But "it's not that hard" is something I do say about Dark Souls, so it kinda felt like you were calling me and anyone else who says it, an asshat simply because we do. My tone was aggressive simply because it felt you were attacking us for our stance. I'm not saying other people are incapable of doing things, but people cry "Easy Mode is needed!" whenever something isn't fully explained to them before they do even the smallest things.

I'm well aware that not everything in Dark Souls is easy as pie to pull off, but it's not so hard that you can't get it down pat with a bit of practice. Like the jump mechanic. I couldn't aim or time the jumps for my life until I started using it to simply get around(even without *needing* to jump). Now I've got it integrated into my exploration and I can use it seamlessly. As much as I play games, I'm not even that good. I have little personal skill, so in my eyes if I can do this, so can other people.
 

StriderShinryu

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BloatedGuppy said:
viranimus said:
Knowing that makes it impossible to become fully immersed in the world because the threats the world present, even to those playing normal, no matter how hard it becomes you know that if the going gets rough you can make it easier on yourself with a simple reroll. Knowing that not only eliminates the immersion of being in that perilous world, it will actively alter not only your play style, but your experience in interacting with various NPCs. The ever present tension is gone. The ache when it feels like you are going to break your shield trigger button you are jamming it down so hard so as to not let it slip for a fraction of a second, Simply knowing that if you want all you have to do is speed run through easy mode to "learn" everything normal mode is going to throw at you so you can prepare accordingly instead of learning through trial and error. If people cannot accept that the difficulty IS a reason people choose to play this specific game and thus a rational argument against EM, there is no way that people playing for immersion in a world that IS broken specifically by the existence of an easy way out cannot be argued.
Now this is fair, and it's probably close to the argument I would give for why Dark Souls needs to be difficult in order to be rewarding. If someone told me they wanted to play through Dark Souls on God Mode, I'd say "Good lord, why?". Without the difficulty, it loses much of what makes it special.

NOW. THAT SAID.

You are AWARE I could download a trainer for this fucking thing today, if I wanted to? You're aware I could just farm souls and dramatically outlevel content, trivializing most of it...not through skill, but through tolerance for tedium? Heck, it's even EASIER than Everquest in that respect, as I don't need to make sure things are inside a con range in order to profit from their death. If I had the patience of Job, I could just farm the easiest opponent in the game for weeks. The ability to make Dark Souls dramatically easier, even with the push of a button, already exists. Is your immersion destroyed? Do you hate the game now?
This is the part that always gets me. It's an important thing to be noted, but it's often not noted by those who want an easy mode. There are plenty of ways within Dark Souls as it already exists to decrease the difficulty. You can upgrade your gear. You can, in some cases, farm for better gear. You can level grind your character. You can summon NPCs to help. You can summon other players to help. You can avoid becoming Human to avoid unwanted interaction with other players. Etc. To those who have actually played the game and gained even some small level of experience with it instead of just throwing out accusations based on heresay, it's very clear that Dark Souls does not need an Easy Mode due to already existing functions that can make the game easier (or harder) if that's your desire.

I don't however feel that offering download of a trainer is part of any sort of difficulty purely because it's essentially cheating. That's like saying The hardest bullet hell shooter ever created is easy because you can activate god mode. Also, trainers are, to my knowledge, not available on the console versions which is where many Souls players at least first experienced the game.

Anyway, it's an interesting question to then ask if these already existent options invalidates the argument against easy mode. I can see that perspective but disagree simply due to developer intention and the singular experience. To access the easy options that already exist you have to experience the game as it already exists. It's not a great answer, to be sure, but the fact that the question is being asked at all pretty much invalidates any calls for an easier mode to begin with.
 

Ickorus

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immovablemover said:
No, but whats the point? Gameplay is entirely centred around it being a challenge and the story is all but non-existant; It is a game based around skill and challenge, remove those things and you haven't got anything left.
The story is there, it's just not particularly obvious unless you pay close attention.

But yeah, take away the challenge and you take away the core of the game, the atmosphere of being alone in a world that really doesn't give a crap about you is gone, you're no longer just another undead trying to survive in the world and you'll just rush through the content too fast to really take it in, I think you'd just be left with a mediocre hack and slash that most players of that mode would walk away from disappointed.
 

Ren_Li

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I want to start off by saying that I am a bad gamer.
I've been into video games for maybe five years. I didn't grow up playing them (my parents were luddites who feared that playing video games would turn me into a drooling simpleton who spends his spare time licking the television for pleasure, as far as I can tell) and due to money, the collection of video games I DO have is very small, and I tend to play the first playthrough on Easy, because it takes me THAT LONG to get the hang of a game.

I suck, in short.

And I LOVED Dark Souls. A big part of what I loved was the sense of accomplishment I got, first for beating it, then beating the New Game +. I also loved how I HAD to play it- cautiously and using sense rather than relying on bludgeoning everything.
I found the bosses frustrating, because with Dark Souls bosses you can't mess up. You mess up and you are almost certainly dead. If you're not dead, you're nearly dead. It's suddenly not about being careful, and stealthy; that doesn't WORK. It's about reading how they're going to attack, and how you need to respond, and doing so with far better reactions than I have.
But hey, I got through them. I probably died more on that sodding wolf with the sword than throughout the rest of the (none-boss-fight) game put together, but I DID IT. Me, this abysmal gamer who doesn't play ANY multiplayer because I know I will drag everyone else down.

I did it. And I am so damned proud. If I had had the option of an easy mode I would have turned it on after my first death, and after the boss my reaction would've been "woo boss down now on with the rest of the game", not the euphoria that I had finally done it. And, in my opinion, that incredibly rewarding sense of accomplishment was a big part of the game to me. It was part of the draw.

Additionally, throw in an Easy mode and you can run in and bludgeon stuff. It's not playing smart any more, it's not playing it cautiously, and it's not learning to take things in your stride and want to do better next time without sweating the fact that you failed. It's not supposed to be a "run through and just hit stuff" kind of game.

So... Yeah, adding in an Easy mode could potentially destroy what- in this pretty bloody terrible gamer's opinion- is part of what makes Dark Souls, Dark Souls. That caution, and that sense of accomplishment, were both vital to my experience with Dark Souls.

I'm not saying it can't be done RIGHT. But making you take a percentage less damage, and the enemies do a percentage more- for example- is NOT IT. Maybe altering certain enemies (like those damned mosquito-things knowing EXACTLY where you are at ALL times), maybe making it so certain bosses are a little less likely to one-shot you if you mess up, making mistakes a tad less costly. Stuff like that, without altering the core challenges of the game, COULD work- but it would have to be done so very carefully- which could take a long time- or it would destroy the whole essence of the game.

Those are my thoughts. I'm sure many people have made much better thoughts, and done so much more eloquently. But those are mine, for anyone who cares to read my wall of text.
 

viranimus

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LOL Seems I needed a day to sleep off that post.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now this, This is WHY I have defended this position so vehemently. This is my problem with the tone of this whole debate and the pro EM position that keeps presenting itself like this.
Eclectic Dreck said:
By contrast, making Dark Souls dramatically easier is a trivial affair

People being upset is of little concern

if something that trivial actually upsets you,

if that mode does nothing to undermine the core game you love,

With nothing at stake

the game's difficulty is easily trivialized

the mode people love remains intact.

You lose nothing in the exchange.

the asked for change does nothing to diminish the game

This. The assertion that those defending EM basically are justified in defining what is valid, justifiable, with merit and what is dismissible, irrelevant, insignificant, trivial and unimportant almost as if it were not expressed and did not exist is wrong and begs to be pointed out. The question is what exactly is that qualification to allow that kind of determination what reasons are valid for someone to like what they like in this manner?

why does the existence of that mode diminish your joy?

If you read my post to dissect it on the level presented here (as well as the other affirmative statements) with the reasons being given clearly, concisely, poetically, contextually and repeatedly then you as illustrated above are judging those reasons without merit and dismissing them as irrelevant then what point is there to explain it yet again knowing it will be dismissed as trivial yet again.

They didn't ask for an Easy Dark Souls - they asked for an easy mode.

the game in it's current state is a time sink and they feel they'd be more inclined to play the game if that aspect were to diminish.

They want dark souls - just an easier version
Then they dont want a Souls game. Its literally THAT simple. If you can say " I want to play an easier Souls game" what you are in actuality saying is " I want to play a completely different game. If you give them streamlined easy mode, they are not getting the experience of a souls game anyway. At that point why even call it a Souls game? It would be like saying "I love minecraft, but they need to replace the blocks with hundred faced polygons to make it photo realistic and get rid of all the tedious crafting" Saying " I want to play dark souls, but they need to tone down the difficulty" is the epitome of missing the forest for all the pretty trees in the way.


Why is it distressing that people want to be included?
There is nothing wrong with wanting to be included. But the notion everyone must be included in everything is absolutely wrong. But should John Goodman be upset for not being included in the Olympic hurdles team? Should Snooki be upset for not being included in Mensa? Should Steven Hawking be upset for not being included in this season of "Dancing with the Stars"? Now should those groups lower their requirements to include those people and if they do, what of those who made the cut before the bar was lowered? Now what if those angry excluded celebs had a variety similar groups of which they could readily be included in without having to lower the bar, but no alternatives for those who didnt need it lowered in the first place, but the bar was lowered anyway. Should they not be pissed? It sucks to be excluded, but there IS merit in exclusion. It will either encourage you to get better in order to be included, or direct you to something else you are better equipped to be included in.

But Ive explained it yet again already, and Im not going to waste more time explaining it further.
___________________________________________________________________________________________

Ok, Agree to disagree. I just wanted to touch on one point as it was re quoted as to offer clarification on it.

BloatedGuppy said:
NOW. THAT SAID.

You are AWARE I could download a trainer for this fucking thing today, if I wanted to? You're aware I could just farm souls and dramatically outlevel content, trivializing most of it...not through skill, but through tolerance for tedium? Heck, it's even EASIER than Everquest in that respect, as I don't need to make sure things are inside a con range in order to profit from their death. If I had the patience of Job, I could just farm the easiest opponent in the game for weeks. The ability to make Dark Souls dramatically easier, even with the push of a button, already exists. Is your immersion destroyed? Do you hate the game now?
Is my immersion destroyed by the existence of trainers? No. There is a world of difference between cheat software people would utilize to alter the game, and options built into the game natively by the developers themselves. What a developer releases as their product is what the developer intended (for the most part) So if the developer released a trainer with the game to enable god mode, they did not intend to release a game based on challenge, and I would not play it. Again, its not what others do, it is what I myself have access to do. If I am on a console, trainers are not an option (unless there is a means I am unfamiliar with simply out of never looking for one) So to me, the only thing that shows me the experience the developer intended me to have is what they recorded to that disc. If they intended to give me an option to negate the challenge of their challenging game that breaks my immersion because its intention is not to be challenging any longer.

But like i said, agree to disagree. And yes, good discussion. Thats why we come to a "discussion" forum. I loathe the day everyone has to think the same way (and it almost feels like that day is creeping up on us)

Other thought: You fully realize you made me want to play EQ again, right ;)
 

lapan

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Rawne1980 said:
Demon's Souls was hard, Dark Souls is only difficult if you're shit at it. Dying more than four times in any fight in Dark Souls isn't down to it being difficult it's down to the player using shit tactics.
The only things harder about Demon Souls were World Tendencies and the fact that you only had checkpoints after a boss. The bosses themselves were actually a lot easier. The gameplay for both titles is actually so similar that if you grasped the basics of one of the two games the later one will appear easier to you simply because you already are in the right mindset. Not to mention things like "Second chance" or the faster rolling and running speed of Demon Souls.

OT:

I'm generally not opposed to "easy mode", even if i feel it's not neccesary thanks to the options the games already offer you to make them easier.
One of my worries is that the multiplayer will suffer if it gets split up between difficulties. Depending on how big the percentage of easy mode players is and how many new players will start the Souls series this could hurt it quite a bit. It's already hard enough to get successful multiplayer going, especially on the pc version.
 

ZCAB

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I wouldn't be interested in playing an easy mode for Dark Souls II, because I think it's the difficulty and how satisfying the games feel because of it that sets the series apart. That doesn't mean I'm against an optional easy mode alongside the regular difficulty, however.
 

ultrabiome

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lapan said:
One of my worries is that the multiplayer will suffer if it gets split up between difficulties. Depending on how big the percentage of easy mode players is and how many new players will start the Souls series this could hurt it quite a bit. It's already hard enough to get successful multiplayer going, especially on the pc version.
this.

if it wasn't for the necessity for splitting up the 'servers' for the different difficulties (or outright banning those in the EM), then easy mode would be fine with me.

seems like the people who want easy mode play offline anyway, but the problem is that having an offline EM implies that the game was meant to be played offline. the full experience is the online play, with the messages and summoning and invading. having an easy mode will just dilute that experience, which is why so many of us are against any difficulty sliders or modes.