Poll: Would you play an RPG that hides stats from the player?

[Waaghpowa]

Call me weird, but I actually enjoy crunching the numbers >.>

 

[Epona]

I'd enjoy it. If the stats were represented by physical appearances would be pretty cool. Strong characters have bigger muscles, agile characters get a sleeker look, smart characters get, I dunno, bushier eyebrows?

lol You can work with it. Say you only had five stats: Strength/Power, Agility, Toughness, Magic and Awareness.

Strong characters get stronger, agile get a sleeker and toned look, tough characters get covered with scars, magic characters get auras of energy around their hands and aware characters get a halo of light around their heads.

Aesthetic effects that would not sufficiently replace stat numbers as they would not be as precise. You could have both and that would be fine but on it's own, your idea would pale in comparison to number based stats. Even a health bar type of stat system would be more precise than altering your avatar. Plus, it would not sit well with those who prefer to design the perfect character at the start of a game and not have that character altered outside of their control throughout the game.

 

[Naeo]

That depends. If there are stats in the game, I'd want to see them (to a reasonable extent. I don't want to see every single data point used to calculate everything). In RPGs a player's stats are used to gauge progress and whether or not you should charge into that next battle or avoid it for now. However, if you could make an RPG where that stuff didn't matter, i.e. where there were no stats, that would certainly be interesting and would not deter me from playing it in the least. I just don't know how you'd set up such a game without removing a lot of variety from it. For instance, you could do away with, say, a sword/blade skill and just assume your character is a highly skilled bladesman. Okay, so then what do you do from there? Go the Assassin's Creed route and have one sword (or maybe aesthetically differing swords with no functional difference)? Do you have clearly different tiers of swords? Do you make all swords better at some things/for some situations than others (e.g. this one is better for heavily armored/slower opponents, this one is better for faster/lighter armored opponents)? Same conundrum for armor.

It's certainly a very interesting prospect. I suppose you could just do away with the concept of a skill system and have one's ability to use a weapon depend entirely on the player themselves, rather than the character, but have different weapons that have different ups and downs to each of them or some that are just in all ways better than others. Same for spells and armor and whatnot. Or, and this may be more difficult to implement and more frustrating for the players at times, but have an organic development of the skills with a certain weapon. As you use a sword more, you just get better with it, but not necessarily along any "now you have X skill!" or "now you have X more experience points!" sort of lines, but I'm not sure how you would do that.

Now that I think about it, something like that is probably the best route. All characters have the same skills, but much like an FPS multiplayer, the only inherent difference is what weapons you have on you at the time and what you, as the person inputting commands to the game, can pull off.

 

[YawningAngel]

I was inspired to make this thread while I was re-watching Yahtzee's bit on World of Warcraft, specifically the part where he talks about games being all about numbers instead of whether your sword of doom aesthetically clashes with your elite boss clogs.

In real life, if I was trying to pull together some friends to make a soccer team, it's not like I could know that Johnny has a Strength 6 and Speed 4, and Suzie has Strength 3 and Intelligence 8. Instead, I have to make inferences based on observing and interacting with them, and even then I might be wrong - Suzie might be stronger than Johnny even if he looks bigger.

Would you play an RPG that functioned the same way?

Obviously the numbers would still have to exist to do the necessary calculations behind the scenes, but they wouldn't be revealed to the player. You wouldn't know how good your "One-Handed Melee" skill really is until you start practicing with a sword, or how high your Charisma is until NPCs replied to you in a way that suggested that, perhaps, you really are a huge dick. You wouldn't know that shield A is better than shield B from numbers, but rather from common sense and gameplay experience: "Well, everyone knows wood is weaker than steel, so the steel shield is likely stronger. But I've also noticed from playing the game that my character moves slower with the steel shield, so maybe I should use the wooden shield if I want a skirmisher-type character."

To me, this system better captures the essence of "role-playing" a character than what we currently have. Because what we currently have encourages power-leveling and max-DPS spec-builds and all kinds of other ridiculous shit, like putting together giant statistical spreadsheets and complex formulas (people do this all the time, especially for WoW). So you're not so much selling an experience for players, but more of a challenge to see who can level their stats the fastest or most efficiently by best exploiting the game's mechanics.

EDIT: my "yes - no" poll got eaten somehow

I defy anyone to play The Void and tell me they wouldn't.

 

[Macrobstar]

Well, since the numbers are what make it an RPG, I'm gonna say: Emphatic no.

Who the hell plays an RPG to not understand the stats behind item A or character B. That would make it an action game... and not an RPG.

But the difference is that the numbers are still there and you still level them by extensive use. You just have to actually role-play to figure out where you stand.

Again, too much hassle.
I'd rather know the stats at a glance so that I can better equip my character for whatever situation. Hiding that from me would be an excercise in frustration (and plenty of fail/re-loads) which would probably cause me to catapult the game into another time zone.

Edit: Even the purposefully cryptic Dark Souls gives you extensive stat screens for all equipment and yourself as a character.

this, i play my rpg's because there is awesome stat building/charts that i can look at and ponder about deciding my next move/level on what i need to do here and there.

there is nothing wrong with action games, but this certainly is less rpg than fable even is.

I think your missing the point, the stats are still there and all the complexity that comes with them its just that instead of saying "Level 18 sword" it would be "A high grade piece of military weaponry, clearly better than the average weapon" etc. In my mind this would make it much more complex and immersive

if that's what you truly mean, then personally i completely disagree, that seems insanely boring to me and i'd rather see all the insane numbers/stats that go along with everything i have and am working towards throughout the game.

Sounds like you care more about big numbers flashing up then things actually making sense in the context of the story

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Well, since the numbers are what make it an RPG, I'm gonna say: Emphatic no.

Who the hell plays an RPG to not understand the stats behind item A or character B. That would make it an action game... and not an RPG.

But the difference is that the numbers are still there and you still level them by extensive use. You just have to actually role-play to figure out where you stand.

Again, too much hassle.
I'd rather know the stats at a glance so that I can better equip my character for whatever situation. Hiding that from me would be an excercise in frustration (and plenty of fail/re-loads) which would probably cause me to catapult the game into another time zone.

Edit: Even the purposefully cryptic Dark Souls gives you extensive stat screens for all equipment and yourself as a character.

this, i play my rpg's because there is awesome stat building/charts that i can look at and ponder about deciding my next move/level on what i need to do here and there.

there is nothing wrong with action games, but this certainly is less rpg than fable even is.

I think your missing the point, the stats are still there and all the complexity that comes with them its just that instead of saying "Level 18 sword" it would be "A high grade piece of military weaponry, clearly better than the average weapon" etc. In my mind this would make it much more complex and immersive

if that's what you truly mean, then personally i completely disagree, that seems insanely boring to me and i'd rather see all the insane numbers/stats that go along with everything i have and am working towards throughout the game.

Sounds like you care more about big numbers flashing up then things actually making sense in the context of the story

erm what? no, i prefer the option to see the stats, not have them hidden away turning it into an even more action streamed version of fable.

see crono's responses if you really want an in depth reason as to why i dont want your cut off option.

 

[Epona]

Making the stats available in a status window that can be easily ignored (for those who don't want to look at stats) is not forcing it on you. However, the reverse is not true. Hiding stats from everyone because a few people don't want to see them can't be fixed for those who want to see them.

Pokemon displays your stats at every level up BTW.

Level-up statistics have nothing to do with what I said, and for the first generation or 2 of Pokemon, such statistics were not included.

With regards to your first point, I'll reiterate what I said, hopefully with more clarity, since I addressed that point.

There exists, in the world of any given game, a system. This is the summary of, for the purposes of this discussion, three features:

1) Rules made known to the player
2) Rules kept hidden from the player
3) Ways the effects of the rules are made known to a player

In your typical RPG, feature 1 is laden with stats, abilities, numbers, etc.

Feature 1 also governs the player's experience with the world, which is huge, since that is essentially what a game is - a system of rules. I don't get the option to negotiate in Devil May Cry, for example. Whatever rules are given to the player - in the case of your typical RPG, stats - are how the player interacts with the world. These rules cannot be ignored, as you suggest, since that removes the interactivity element of games - in other words, it negates the point of a game.

Feature 2 typically has a few things going on (for instance, a sea serpent is resistance to fire spells), but nothing monumental - these are more flavorful than anything, which is perfectly acceptable. Feature 3 consists of spreadsheet-esque pages of stats and typewriter-style combat logs where you are told what happens.

Pokemon follows these features, but add individuality to any given Pokemon in the form of Effort Values (statistics added based on the sorts of Pokemon you defeat) and Individual Values (randomly generated additions to stats over the course of a Pokemon's life).

Now, what is being suggested is the shift of rules from feature 1 to feature 2 and, most likely, a change in feature 3. The ultimate effect is a new RPG experience where one must look for non-numerical signals of progress.

Given how numbers are the *only* indication of progress in your typical RPG, this is a proposal to play with that norm and find new, inventive, integrated (and I think better) methods of conveying information of progress to the player.

I have only played the DS Pokemon games so I can only go off of how the Pokemon games currently are. If they went from not showing stats at every level up to showing them then it shows that they apparently thought that's what people wanted. I think they were right about that.

I agree with your three effects but in regards to 2 and 3, if things are kept hidden from the player but then (in 3) revealed at some point, then we aren't discussing the same thing. I am talking about hidden stats that the player NEVER gets to see or hidden rules (like elemental weaknesses) that the player never has the chance to learn about. Of course, that example is bad because a game with element strengths and weaknesses HAS to tell the player about it or the feature is wasted. I have never seen a game with elemental strengths and weaknesses that kept it a secret. In most game you may have to cast spells to experiment but you CAN learn what an enemies weaknesses are. Hidden stats are hidden and you can NEVER see them. See the difference? In Final Fantasy VII, a character in Junon will hint at how you level up your limits but you can never check you actual progress, those are hidden stats and only cause frustration. I don't want to see an expansion of hidden stats. Well, I just won't play the game so I won't see it but you get my point.

You speak of hidden stats in Pokemon, I have never heard of these hidden stats so I guess my point is, if they are hidden then they are useless to average player. Luckily you can get through Pokemon without these hidden stats but what if more important stats were hidden, how would that affect Pokemon?

Well, in JRPG's the story progresses as well as your character. In open world WRPG's then yes, it is your character/level building that drives the game. If there were an open world WRPG with hidden stats, it would be worthless to me and many other players I would imagine. A JRPG could fall back on it's crappy story (but story nonetheless) but without the character building you end up with Final Fantasy XIII. That game did let you level your character but ONLY when it and how it said you could.

 

[Supah]

How would a level up be handled then? Unless they handled it well it could feel kind of like empty levels, although at the same time its an interesting idea.

 

[ThunderCavalier]

Sounds like an interesting concept, but for games like Dark Souls, Skyrim, or even World of Warcraft where combat is partially based on having the best gear and best set of moves and skills down to the most minute number, it sounds like a really unfair punishment.

It may add a bit of difficulty and realism to the game, but it might feel artificial and it would be a bit of a great disservice to people that are huge number crunchers.

 

[Velocity Eleven]

Sure.

Although I'd rather they just get rid of the stats altogether.

Agree.

RPG's are suppose to be about talking to the characters, learning their stories, and acquiring spifftastic stuff that LOOKS cool. Stats just get in the way, making people go for ugly stuff simply because it's +1 damage. Sooner stats go away, the sooner people get to wear what they want to wear.

see, I love RPGs, but your "how RPGs are supposed to be" idea to me sounds like the antithesis of fun

 

[Epona]

Well, since the numbers are what make it an RPG, I'm gonna say: Emphatic no.

Who the hell plays an RPG to not understand the stats behind item A or character B. That would make it an action game... and not an RPG.

But the difference is that the numbers are still there and you still level them by extensive use. You just have to actually role-play to figure out where you stand.

Again, too much hassle.
I'd rather know the stats at a glance so that I can better equip my character for whatever situation. Hiding that from me would be an excercise in frustration (and plenty of fail/re-loads) which would probably cause me to catapult the game into another time zone.

Edit: Even the purposefully cryptic Dark Souls gives you extensive stat screens for all equipment and yourself as a character.

this, i play my rpg's because there is awesome stat building/charts that i can look at and ponder about deciding my next move/level on what i need to do here and there.

there is nothing wrong with action games, but this certainly is less rpg than fable even is.

I think your missing the point, the stats are still there and all the complexity that comes with them its just that instead of saying "Level 18 sword" it would be "A high grade piece of military weaponry, clearly better than the average weapon" etc. In my mind this would make it much more complex and immersive

if that's what you truly mean, then personally i completely disagree, that seems insanely boring to me and i'd rather see all the insane numbers/stats that go along with everything i have and am working towards throughout the game.

Sounds like you care more about big numbers flashing up then things actually making sense in the context of the story

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Big numbers don't have any effect on a story. Please don't pull the "why didn't they use a Phoenix Down on Aeris" out of your hat.

 

[Macrobstar]

Well, since the numbers are what make it an RPG, I'm gonna say: Emphatic no.

Who the hell plays an RPG to not understand the stats behind item A or character B. That would make it an action game... and not an RPG.

But the difference is that the numbers are still there and you still level them by extensive use. You just have to actually role-play to figure out where you stand.

Again, too much hassle.
I'd rather know the stats at a glance so that I can better equip my character for whatever situation. Hiding that from me would be an excercise in frustration (and plenty of fail/re-loads) which would probably cause me to catapult the game into another time zone.

Edit: Even the purposefully cryptic Dark Souls gives you extensive stat screens for all equipment and yourself as a character.

this, i play my rpg's because there is awesome stat building/charts that i can look at and ponder about deciding my next move/level on what i need to do here and there.

there is nothing wrong with action games, but this certainly is less rpg than fable even is.

I think your missing the point, the stats are still there and all the complexity that comes with them its just that instead of saying "Level 18 sword" it would be "A high grade piece of military weaponry, clearly better than the average weapon" etc. In my mind this would make it much more complex and immersive

if that's what you truly mean, then personally i completely disagree, that seems insanely boring to me and i'd rather see all the insane numbers/stats that go along with everything i have and am working towards throughout the game.

Sounds like you care more about big numbers flashing up then things actually making sense in the context of the story

erm what? no, i prefer the option to see the stats, not have them hidden away turning it into an even more action streamed version of fable.

see crono's responses if you really want an in depth reason as to why i dont want your cut off option.

How is it more streamlined then fable? Picking things based off of numbers is as simple as something gets, whats really complex is having you decipher it by your characters knowledge. Also its not really a gameplay thing and more of a thing to make the story more immersive

 

[vivster]

no i would not
it pretty much undermines the main gameplay mechanics and one of the big reasons why RPGs are so addictive
it's all about progress... seeing progress activates the reward receptors in your brain which makes you happy
and by seeing ever higher numbers you get the shots you need to keep playing

Dude, the progress that should be triggering the reward is the accomplishment of a purpose like "I saved the kingdom!". Not the counting of the beans that you've gathered.

The fact that these people have to resort to substituting bean-counting for adventure and accomplishment means they have FAILED YOU as game designers. Please, consider trying a game where actually making a difference provides you with a feeling of accomplishment. Play games, don't let game companies play you.

it comes down to immersion then
when i wrote this i was mainly thinking about jrpgs
i will never be able to feel like that I accomplished something in that bizarre world of scripted events
the things i can see and grasp however are how my stats increased and that is something I did
i beat the games' challenges and was getting better and better
i look at the number of increased strength, i look at the number of defeated monsters, i look at the number of items i have collected and i look at the number of steps i made
those are all numbers that show me that i have accomplished something, that i have progressed
some saved world in a distant fantasy will never be as real to me as the numbers i directly influence

it's a bit different in wrpgs though
i'm a lot more immersed in them and all i do is for me and my character and the numbers are but just a little indicator to me on how i can progress further

 

[Macrobstar]

Well, since the numbers are what make it an RPG, I'm gonna say: Emphatic no.

Who the hell plays an RPG to not understand the stats behind item A or character B. That would make it an action game... and not an RPG.

But the difference is that the numbers are still there and you still level them by extensive use. You just have to actually role-play to figure out where you stand.

Again, too much hassle.
I'd rather know the stats at a glance so that I can better equip my character for whatever situation. Hiding that from me would be an excercise in frustration (and plenty of fail/re-loads) which would probably cause me to catapult the game into another time zone.

Edit: Even the purposefully cryptic Dark Souls gives you extensive stat screens for all equipment and yourself as a character.

this, i play my rpg's because there is awesome stat building/charts that i can look at and ponder about deciding my next move/level on what i need to do here and there.

there is nothing wrong with action games, but this certainly is less rpg than fable even is.

I think your missing the point, the stats are still there and all the complexity that comes with them its just that instead of saying "Level 18 sword" it would be "A high grade piece of military weaponry, clearly better than the average weapon" etc. In my mind this would make it much more complex and immersive

if that's what you truly mean, then personally i completely disagree, that seems insanely boring to me and i'd rather see all the insane numbers/stats that go along with everything i have and am working towards throughout the game.

Sounds like you care more about big numbers flashing up then things actually making sense in the context of the story

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Big numbers don't have any effect on a story. Please don't pull the "why didn't they use a Phoenix Down on Aeris" out of your hat.

Well that phoenix down thing is a huge plot hole, they mention it in an extra credits episode. How to numbers make sense in the context of the story? Unless your created character is a cyborg who gets information readings from his equipment about damage and shit. In skyrim nowhere does it say Dovakiin has the power to gauge weapon damage, granted its not a big deal, but it would be a nice change to see a game where everything you do has context within the world. It wouldn't be nice for every game, but for maybe just one or two to experience something completely immersive

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Sure.

Although I'd rather they just get rid of the stats altogether.

That is a terrible idea. It would completely take away character progression.
OP: Yeah, no. There is encouraging experimentation and then there is just blind folding the player.

 

[Jandau]

Would I play it? Well, if it's good, sure, why not?

Would the lack of number annoy me? Yes, very much.

Unless I had full faith in the balancing of the game, I'd be constantly wondering if my build is any good, if I'm picking the right stuff. And it would only be a matter of time before the numbers behind the game would be determined through testing and then GameFAQs would have all the figures. Then the result would be the same as if the numbers were shown, only the game would still be a douche and would force you to ALT-TAB to a guide when you want to compare the damage values of two weapons or something.

 

[Epona]

Sure.

Although I'd rather they just get rid of the stats altogether.

Agree.

RPG's are suppose to be about talking to the characters, learning their stories, and acquiring spifftastic stuff that LOOKS cool. Stats just get in the way, making people go for ugly stuff simply because it's +1 damage. Sooner stats go away, the sooner people get to wear what they want to wear.

Sounds like you want to play The Sims. Talking to characters is necessary in an RPG but most of the time the characters have nothing interesting to say. Acquiring stuff that LOOKS good...uh no. The character building (ie, the stats) is why I play RPG's.

 

[Velocity Eleven]

no i would not
it pretty much undermines the main gameplay mechanics and one of the big reasons why RPGs are so addictive
it's all about progress... seeing progress activates the reward receptors in your brain which makes you happy
and by seeing ever higher numbers you get the shots you need to keep playing

Dude, the progress that should be triggering the reward is the accomplishment of a purpose like "I saved the kingdom!". Not the counting of the beans that you've gathered.

The fact that these people have to resort to substituting bean-counting for adventure and accomplishment means they have FAILED YOU as game designers. Please, consider trying a game where actually making a difference provides you with a feeling of accomplishment. Play games, don't let game companies play you.

it comes down to immersion then
when i wrote this i was mainly thinking about jrpgs
i will never be able to feel like that I accomplished something in that bizarre world of scripted events
the things i can see and grasp however are how my stats increased and that is something I did
i beat the games' challenges and was getting better and better
i look at the number of increased strength, i look at the number of defeated monsters, i look at the number of items i have collected and i look at the number of steps i made
those are all numbers that show me that i have accomplished something, that i have progressed
some saved world in a distant fantasy will never be as real to me as the numbers i directly influence

it's a bit different in wrpgs though
i'm a lot more immersed in them and all i do is for me and my character and the numbers are but just a little indicator to me on how i can progress further

its all about what you have overcome... building your characters and watching them grow, figuring out the best way to overcome each area, using your brain to mould the perfect team, and after many many hours, finally beating that one secret boss... all these things are very satisfying, whether the flavour-text is "save the world" or "collect 10 beans" makes no difference to me

 

[Epona]

no i would not
it pretty much undermines the main gameplay mechanics and one of the big reasons why RPGs are so addictive
it's all about progress... seeing progress activates the reward receptors in your brain which makes you happy
and by seeing ever higher numbers you get the shots you need to keep playing

Dude, the progress that should be triggering the reward is the accomplishment of a purpose like "I saved the kingdom!". Not the counting of the beans that you've gathered.

The fact that these people have to resort to substituting bean-counting for adventure and accomplishment means they have FAILED YOU as game designers. Please, consider trying a game where actually making a difference provides you with a feeling of accomplishment. Play games, don't let game companies play you.

it comes down to immersion then
when i wrote this i was mainly thinking about jrpgs
i will never be able to feel like that I accomplished something in that bizarre world of scripted events
the things i can see and grasp however are how my stats increased and that is something I did
i beat the games' challenges and was getting better and better
i look at the number of increased strength, i look at the number of defeated monsters, i look at the number of items i have collected and i look at the number of steps i made
those are all numbers that show me that i have accomplished something, that i have progressed
some saved world in a distant fantasy will never be as real to me as the numbers i directly influence

it's a bit different in wrpgs though
i'm a lot more immersed in them and all i do is for me and my character and the numbers are but just a little indicator to me on how i can progress further

its all about what you have overcome... building your characters and watching them grow, figuring out the best way to overcome each area, using your brain to mould the perfect team, and after many many hours, finally beating that one secret boss... all these things are very satisfying, whether the flavour-text is "save the world" or "collect 10 beans" makes no difference to me

Exactly!

Also, I am an enemy to level scaling because dating back to my first RPG on the SNES, it was satisfying to go back to my starting town and beating monsters who used to kick my ass. Level scaling kills that satisfaction.