Poll: Would you play an RPG that hides stats from the player?

[jboking]

Well, since the numbers are what make it an RPG, I'm gonna say: Emphatic no.

Who the hell plays an RPG to not understand the stats behind item A or character B. That would make it an action game... and not an RPG.

Edit: People on this site seem very confused as to what is an RPG (video game). Sorry, but RPG may be a misnomer, but the numbers are still what make it so. "Role play", that is more akin to improv acting, is better suited to the other kind of RP - table top.

Remove the stats and it ceases to be an RPG.

Role-playing video games (commonly referred to as role-playing games or RPGs) are a video game genre with origins in pen-and-paper role-playing games[1] such as Dungeons & Dragons, using much of the same terminology, settings and game mechanics. The player in RPGs controls one character, or several adventuring party members, fulfilling one or many quests. The major similarities with pen-and-paper games involve developed story-telling and narrative elements, player character development, complexity, as well as replayability and immersion. Electronic medium removes the necessity for a gamemaster and increases combat resolution speed. RPGs have evolved from simple text-based console-window games into visually rich 3D experiences.

In my opinion, if it maintained those things, it could very well still be an RPG. I see it a bit like how the pokemon games have hidden values attached to each pokemon. Sure, there are still regular stats, but if you want the best pokemon possible, you have to figure out how to measure each of those hidden values.

OP: I'd play it so long as it still had a clear HP and MP bar. I feel that without those two things a lot of the strategy of conservation would disappear. I need to be able to know how many magic missiles I can cast before I'm out, and I need to not find that out while facing down some big mother-hubber.

 

[The Harkinator]

I'd love for something like this to work. It might not but I'm going to put a hypothetical comparison:

Current RPG:
Expertly Crafted Steel Longsword: DMG: 36 WG: 4 GP: 3,800

Hypothetical RPG
Expertly Crafted Steel Longsword: You look upon this fine blade with admiration reserved for a kingly weapon. From the shining tip to the beautiful pommel set with a sparkling sapphire you can see that this blade is a work of art ready to carve out its own legend. As you touch the blade for the first time you are surprised to see a tiny droplet of blood fall from your fingertip. This thing feels like it could slice through metal and bone with the slightest suggestion as it feels so light in your hand.

Current RPG:
Worn Out Iron Longsword: DMG: 7 WG: 9 GP: 120

Hypothetical RPG:
Worn Out Iron Longsword: You look down at this faithful blade passed through many hands and now in yours and wonder of the life it has led, was it once a soldiers sword, on the frontline of many a battle? Or perhaps once the blade of an adventurer who delved into the deepest depths of darkness seeking fortune at the point of this sword? This heavy, workmanlike sword is nicked and scratched all over, speaking of a plethora of unknown deeds. Whether through overuse or neglect this blades once sharp edge is now dull and unimpressive, now worthy of a down-on-his-luck bandit or an old farmer looking to protect his land.



Does the descriptions match the stats? Are they more exciting? Does it let you think more about where the blade might have been made and how it ended up in your possesion. Will it become your weapon, the one you become known for as you make your own legend? Or will you sell it on to a trader to get more coin. May you just leave it behind lest it weighs you down on your journey. As you eventually part ways who will hold this sword next?

I do go on a bit don't I?

 

[CalPal]

How would a level up be handled then? Unless they handled it well it could feel kind of like empty levels, although at the same time its an interesting idea.

I think the point is that there would be nothing to show that you did, in fact, level up. Think of it like a combination of Skyrim and EVE Online in regards to how you get abilities, only minus the numbers.

It should work like in real life: for example, let's say you grab a guitar and try to practice with it. Obviously, if you're just starting out, you're not going to be very good at it - unless you're replaying the game or something, I don't know how replays would work. So you dedicate some time to practicing the guitar, and after a long while, you're actually good enough to perform in front of other people without even realizing or seeing the transition.

It should be like that with swords and leveling up: you don't see any of the transitions, but you know you're getting better, and it'd feel more realistic.

 

[AngleWyrm]

No, I would not like to play a game where all stats are hidden. You know why? Because the guys writing the game would have no reason to balance the game, so they wouldn't bother.

 

[Supah]

How would a level up be handled then? Unless they handled it well it could feel kind of like empty levels, although at the same time its an interesting idea.

I think the point is that there would be nothing to show that you did, in fact, level up. Think of it like a combination of Skyrim and EVE Online in regards to how you get abilities, only minus the numbers.

It should work like in real life: for example, let's say you grab a guitar and try to practice with it. Obviously, if you're just starting out, you're not going to be very good at it - unless you're replaying the game or something, I don't know how replays would work. So you dedicate some time to practicing the guitar, and after a long while, you're actually good enough to perform in front of other people without even realizing or seeing the transition.

It should be like that with swords and leveling up: you don't see any of the transitions, but you know you're getting better, and it'd feel more realistic.

Huh I get it, that could be interesting, but it might be hard to tell when you're ready for a tougher area

 

[Epona]

Well, since the numbers are what make it an RPG, I'm gonna say: Emphatic no.

Who the hell plays an RPG to not understand the stats behind item A or character B. That would make it an action game... and not an RPG.

But the difference is that the numbers are still there and you still level them by extensive use. You just have to actually role-play to figure out where you stand.

Again, too much hassle.
I'd rather know the stats at a glance so that I can better equip my character for whatever situation. Hiding that from me would be an excercise in frustration (and plenty of fail/re-loads) which would probably cause me to catapult the game into another time zone.

Edit: Even the purposefully cryptic Dark Souls gives you extensive stat screens for all equipment and yourself as a character.

this, i play my rpg's because there is awesome stat building/charts that i can look at and ponder about deciding my next move/level on what i need to do here and there.

there is nothing wrong with action games, but this certainly is less rpg than fable even is.

I think your missing the point, the stats are still there and all the complexity that comes with them its just that instead of saying "Level 18 sword" it would be "A high grade piece of military weaponry, clearly better than the average weapon" etc. In my mind this would make it much more complex and immersive

if that's what you truly mean, then personally i completely disagree, that seems insanely boring to me and i'd rather see all the insane numbers/stats that go along with everything i have and am working towards throughout the game.

Sounds like you care more about big numbers flashing up then things actually making sense in the context of the story

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Big numbers don't have any effect on a story. Please don't pull the "why didn't they use a Phoenix Down on Aeris" out of your hat.

Well that phoenix down thing is a huge plot hole, they mention it in an extra credits episode. How to numbers make sense in the context of the story? Unless your created character is a cyborg who gets information readings from his equipment about damage and shit. In skyrim nowhere does it say Dovakiin has the power to gauge weapon damage, granted its not a big deal, but it would be a nice change to see a game where everything you do has context within the world. It wouldn't be nice for every game, but for maybe just one or two to experience something completely immersive

It's a plot hole because Extra Credits mentioned it? LOL, it was mentioned long before then, I remember people talking about it on AOL right after the game came out in 1997.

Here's the thing though. To avoid problem like that you would have to either: 1) Remove Phoenix Down and Revive from the game 2) Never have anyone in a Final Fantasy game ever die. Neither option is good. Just accept that for the interest of gameplay, there needs to be a way to bring back dead party members and for the interest of storytelling there needs to be the potential for perma-death.

I think it would be a big mistake to sacrifice the user interface in favor of realism. First and foremost it IS a game and an inferior UI would certainly cause it to fail. An RPG interface that tells you less than an RPG interface from the SNES would be a real waste.

 

[jboking]

from same wiki definition:

Success at that action depends on the character's numeric attributes[...]
e. As a character's attributes improve, their chances of succeeding at a particular action will increase.

As The player grows in power, allowing them to overcome more difficult challenges, and gain even more power.[3] This is part of the appeal of the genre, where players experience growing from an ordinary person into a superhero with amazing powers. Whereas other games give the player these powers immediately, the player in a role-playing game will choose their powers and skills as they gain experience.

# The experience system, by far the most common, was inherited from pen-and-paper role-playing games and emphasizes receiving "experience points" (often abbreviated "XP" or "EXP") by winning battles, performing class-specific activities, and completing quests. Once a certain amount of experience is gained, the character advances a level. In some games, level-up occurs automatically when the required amount of experience is reached; in others, the player can choose when and where to advance a level. Likewise, abilities and attributes may increase automatically or manually.[citation needed]
# The training system is similar to the way the Basic Role-Playing system works. The first computer game to use this was Dungeon Master,[original research?] and emphasizes developing the character's skills by using them?meaning that if a character wields a sword for some time, he or she will become proficient with it.

Wooh! This thread got big, didn't even notice you had responded to a similar comment already. What I need to point out here is that what the op was suggesting was a game that clearly has those typical stats, but does not expose them to the player. In this case, the game would still meet all of the requirements you copied from wikipedia.

Long story short, the OP is talking about a game where the stats are present and the character can level up, but where that information isn't clearly presented. It would be something you have to discover through play.

I think it could still qualify as an RPG and would be very interesting, if not a little frustrating, to play.

 

[Dense_Electric]

Well, since the numbers are what make it an RPG, I'm gonna say: Emphatic no.

Who the hell plays an RPG to not understand the stats behind item A or character B. That would make it an action game... and not an RPG.

Edit: People on this site seem very confused as to what is an RPG (video game). Sorry, but RPG may be a misnomer, but the numbers are still what make it so. "Role play", that is more akin to improv acting, is better suited to the other kind of RP - table top.

Remove the stats and it ceases to be an RPG.

Hardly. Role-playing games are, by definition, a game where you play a role - a game where you are forced to make decisions that alter the outcome of the game, just as they would in real life. Numbers and leveling are a staple of most RPGs, but they don't make an RPG an RPG. Bioshock had numbers, but I'm hardly going to call that an RPG because it offered the player no choice (Little Sisters aside, but all that did was change the ending cutscene).

EDIT: I should also point out that such a game would still have numbers and leveling, they'd just be hidden from the player.

@ OP - yes, in fact I was just talking with a friend yesterday about such a game and how it would feel a lot more natural. You'd get good with your sword or gun simply by using it, and would eventually notice the difference instead of simply watching your numbers tick up.

 

[Epona]

How would a level up be handled then? Unless they handled it well it could feel kind of like empty levels, although at the same time its an interesting idea.

I think the point is that there would be nothing to show that you did, in fact, level up. Think of it like a combination of Skyrim and EVE Online in regards to how you get abilities, only minus the numbers.

It should work like in real life: for example, let's say you grab a guitar and try to practice with it. Obviously, if you're just starting out, you're not going to be very good at it - unless you're replaying the game or something, I don't know how replays would work. So you dedicate some time to practicing the guitar, and after a long while, you're actually good enough to perform in front of other people without even realizing or seeing the transition.

It should be like that with swords and leveling up: you don't see any of the transitions, but you know you're getting better, and it'd feel more realistic.

In real life, most people would give up on learning the guitar. The completion rate of games with this system would be low.

 

[Epona]

Well, since the numbers are what make it an RPG, I'm gonna say: Emphatic no.

Who the hell plays an RPG to not understand the stats behind item A or character B. That would make it an action game... and not an RPG.

Edit: People on this site seem very confused as to what is an RPG (video game). Sorry, but RPG may be a misnomer, but the numbers are still what make it so. "Role play", that is more akin to improv acting, is better suited to the other kind of RP - table top.

Remove the stats and it ceases to be an RPG.

Hardly. Role-playing games are, by definition, a game where you play a role - a game where you are forced to make decisions that alter the outcome of the game, just as they would in real life. Numbers and leveling are a staple of most RPGs, but they don't make an RPG an RPG. Bioshock had numbers, but I'm hardly going to call that an RPG because it offered the player no choice (Little Sisters aside, but all that did was change the ending cutscene).

@ OP - yes, in fact I was just talking with a friend yesterday about such a game and how it would feel a lot more natural. You'd get good with your sword or gun simply by using it, and would eventually notice the difference instead of simply watching your numbers tick up.

People say most JRPG's don't offer you choices but they are still recognized as RPG's.

EDIT: I should also point out that such a game would still have numbers and leveling, they'd just be hidden from the player.

Which would make them useless to the player.

 

[Dense_Electric]

How would a level up be handled then? Unless they handled it well it could feel kind of like empty levels, although at the same time its an interesting idea.

I think the point is that there would be nothing to show that you did, in fact, level up. Think of it like a combination of Skyrim and EVE Online in regards to how you get abilities, only minus the numbers.

It should work like in real life: for example, let's say you grab a guitar and try to practice with it. Obviously, if you're just starting out, you're not going to be very good at it - unless you're replaying the game or something, I don't know how replays would work. So you dedicate some time to practicing the guitar, and after a long while, you're actually good enough to perform in front of other people without even realizing or seeing the transition.

It should be like that with swords and leveling up: you don't see any of the transitions, but you know you're getting better, and it'd feel more realistic.

In real life, most people would give up on learning the guitar. That completion rate of games with this system would be low.

Obviously it would be sped up from real life. Look at GTA IV's map size - Liberty City feels massive, and yet the whole thing would fit inside real-life New York's Central Park. What I'm saying is that things are scaled differently in games (they're typically smaller and faster), because while doing something (walking, for example) for five minutes in real life doesn't feel like much, in a game it seems to take a lot longer.

Well, since the numbers are what make it an RPG, I'm gonna say: Emphatic no.

Who the hell plays an RPG to not understand the stats behind item A or character B. That would make it an action game... and not an RPG.

Edit: People on this site seem very confused as to what is an RPG (video game). Sorry, but RPG may be a misnomer, but the numbers are still what make it so. "Role play", that is more akin to improv acting, is better suited to the other kind of RP - table top.

Remove the stats and it ceases to be an RPG.

Hardly. Role-playing games are, by definition, a game where you play a role - a game where you are forced to make decisions that alter the outcome of the game, just as they would in real life. Numbers and leveling are a staple of most RPGs, but they don't make an RPG an RPG. Bioshock had numbers, but I'm hardly going to call that an RPG because it offered the player no choice (Little Sisters aside, but all that did was change the ending cutscene).

@ OP - yes, in fact I was just talking with a friend yesterday about such a game and how it would feel a lot more natural. You'd get good with your sword or gun simply by using it, and would eventually notice the difference instead of simply watching your numbers tick up.

People say most JRPG's don't offer you choices but they are still recognized as RPG's.

I don't consider JRPG's to be RPG's. One of the single biggest misnomers in the gaming in gaming, if you ask me. They tend to be more like interactive films, offering the player even less choice than your average first-person shooter.

 

[Brawndo]

I'd love for something like this to work. It might not but I'm going to put a hypothetical comparison:

Current RPG:
Expertly Crafted Steel Longsword: DMG: 36 WG: 4 GP: 3,800

Hypothetical RPG
Expertly Crafted Steel Longsword: You look upon this fine blade with admiration reserved for a kingly weapon. From the shining tip to the beautiful pommel set with a sparkling sapphire you can see that this blade is a work of art ready to carve out its own legend. As you touch the blade for the first time you are surprised to see a tiny droplet of blood fall from your fingertip. This thing feels like it could slice through metal and bone with the slightest suggestion as it feels so light in your hand.

Current RPG:
Worn Out Iron Longsword: DMG: 7 WG: 9 GP: 120

Hypothetical RPG:
Worn Out Iron Longsword: You look down at this faithful blade passed through many hands and now in yours and wonder of the life it has led, was it once a soldiers sword, on the frontline of many a battle? Or perhaps once the blade of an adventurer who delved into the deepest depths of darkness seeking fortune at the point of this sword? This heavy, workmanlike sword is nicked and scratched all over, speaking of a plethora of unknown deeds. Whether through overuse or neglect this blades once sharp edge is now dull and unimpressive, now worthy of a down-on-his-luck bandit or an old farmer looking to protect his land.



Does the descriptions match the stats? Are they more exciting? Does it let you think more about where the blade might have been made and how it ended up in your possesion. Will it become your weapon, the one you become known for as you make your own legend? Or will you sell it on to a trader to get more coin. May you just leave it behind lest it weighs you down on your journey. As you eventually part ways who will hold this sword next?

I do go on a bit don't I?

This is exactly what I was getting at with my examples, only far more eloquent. If I had the resources to make such an RPG, rest assured I'd hire you as a writer

 

[Epona]

How would a level up be handled then? Unless they handled it well it could feel kind of like empty levels, although at the same time its an interesting idea.

I think the point is that there would be nothing to show that you did, in fact, level up. Think of it like a combination of Skyrim and EVE Online in regards to how you get abilities, only minus the numbers.

It should work like in real life: for example, let's say you grab a guitar and try to practice with it. Obviously, if you're just starting out, you're not going to be very good at it - unless you're replaying the game or something, I don't know how replays would work. So you dedicate some time to practicing the guitar, and after a long while, you're actually good enough to perform in front of other people without even realizing or seeing the transition.

It should be like that with swords and leveling up: you don't see any of the transitions, but you know you're getting better, and it'd feel more realistic.

In real life, most people would give up on learning the guitar. That completion rate of games with this system would be low.

Obviously it would be sped up from real life. Look at GTA IV's map size - Liberty City feels massive, and yet the whole thing would fit inside real-life New York's Central Park. What I'm saying is that things are scaled differently in games (they're typically smaller and faster), because while doing something (walking, for example) for five minutes in real life doesn't feel like much, in a game it seems to take a lot longer.

So you're saying "It's true it will be as boring as learning a guitar but atleast it won't take as long".

I think I'll stick with visible stats, thanks.

 

[Spitfire]

That's a great idea in theory, but it would be very problematic in practice. Consider you're in a raid, for example, and you don't know which spells or weapons do the most damage, and which armor has the most hit points. The most likely result, is that you'll get your ass handed to you, over and over again, until raiding has stopped being fun, and you'll move on to something else, in frustration, be it exploring different content in the game, or worse, playing a different game altogether.

 

[Dense_Electric]

How would a level up be handled then? Unless they handled it well it could feel kind of like empty levels, although at the same time its an interesting idea.

I think the point is that there would be nothing to show that you did, in fact, level up. Think of it like a combination of Skyrim and EVE Online in regards to how you get abilities, only minus the numbers.

It should work like in real life: for example, let's say you grab a guitar and try to practice with it. Obviously, if you're just starting out, you're not going to be very good at it - unless you're replaying the game or something, I don't know how replays would work. So you dedicate some time to practicing the guitar, and after a long while, you're actually good enough to perform in front of other people without even realizing or seeing the transition.

It should be like that with swords and leveling up: you don't see any of the transitions, but you know you're getting better, and it'd feel more realistic.

In real life, most people would give up on learning the guitar. That completion rate of games with this system would be low.

Obviously it would be sped up from real life. Look at GTA IV's map size - Liberty City feels massive, and yet the whole thing would fit inside real-life New York's Central Park. What I'm saying is that things are scaled differently in games (they're typically smaller and faster), because while doing something (walking, for example) for five minutes in real life doesn't feel like much, in a game it seems to take a lot longer.

So you're saying "It's true it will be as boring as learning a guitar but atleast it won't take as long".

I think I'll stick with visible stats, thanks.

...?

I'm sorry, I don't know how the hell you pulled that out of what I said.

Though you do realize that leveling in this hypothetical game would occur at the same rate as in a game with visible stats, yes?

 

[Macrobstar]

Well, since the numbers are what make it an RPG, I'm gonna say: Emphatic no.

Who the hell plays an RPG to not understand the stats behind item A or character B. That would make it an action game... and not an RPG.

But the difference is that the numbers are still there and you still level them by extensive use. You just have to actually role-play to figure out where you stand.

Again, too much hassle.
I'd rather know the stats at a glance so that I can better equip my character for whatever situation. Hiding that from me would be an excercise in frustration (and plenty of fail/re-loads) which would probably cause me to catapult the game into another time zone.

Edit: Even the purposefully cryptic Dark Souls gives you extensive stat screens for all equipment and yourself as a character.

this, i play my rpg's because there is awesome stat building/charts that i can look at and ponder about deciding my next move/level on what i need to do here and there.

there is nothing wrong with action games, but this certainly is less rpg than fable even is.

I think your missing the point, the stats are still there and all the complexity that comes with them its just that instead of saying "Level 18 sword" it would be "A high grade piece of military weaponry, clearly better than the average weapon" etc. In my mind this would make it much more complex and immersive

if that's what you truly mean, then personally i completely disagree, that seems insanely boring to me and i'd rather see all the insane numbers/stats that go along with everything i have and am working towards throughout the game.

Sounds like you care more about big numbers flashing up then things actually making sense in the context of the story

Those things aren't mutually exclusive. Big numbers don't have any effect on a story. Please don't pull the "why didn't they use a Phoenix Down on Aeris" out of your hat.

Well that phoenix down thing is a huge plot hole, they mention it in an extra credits episode. How to numbers make sense in the context of the story? Unless your created character is a cyborg who gets information readings from his equipment about damage and shit. In skyrim nowhere does it say Dovakiin has the power to gauge weapon damage, granted its not a big deal, but it would be a nice change to see a game where everything you do has context within the world. It wouldn't be nice for every game, but for maybe just one or two to experience something completely immersive

It's a plot hole because Extra Credits mentioned it? LOL, it was mentioned long before then, I remember people talking about it on AOL right after the game came out in 1997.

Here's the thing though. To avoid problem like that you would have to either: 1) Remove Phoenix Down and Revive from the game 2) Never have anyone in a Final Fantasy game ever die. Neither option is good. Just accept that for the interest of gameplay, there needs to be a way to bring back dead party members and for the interest of storytelling there needs to be the potential for perma-death.

I think it would be a big mistake to sacrifice the user interface in favor of realism. First and foremost it IS a game and an inferior UI would certainly cause it to fail. An RPG interface that tells you less than an RPG interface from the SNES would be a real waste.

No its a plot hole because its an example of the story being written without any idea of gameplay concepts, Extra credits just went into more detail. They could of made it so party members don't die in combat just get knocked unconscious and phoenix downs bring them back. You can have a good story and solid gameplay, ff7 just had a major stupid plot hole.

Anyway I admit this isn't a good idea for all RPGs, but I think an RPG where everything you do is completely in the context of the world would be great, you could still have a HUD, like in dead space, all your ammo counters and health where part of the real world. But in this game it would be more like you figure out your health by the severity of your wounds or by what other characters say about your wounds. I think it would be a really fun concept to mess around with that definitely shouldn't be ruled out.

Basically my philosophy is, the less menus and interfaces outside of the context of the world you have to deal with, the more immersive it will be (Obviously after you include the obvious things, world, story, gameplay)

 

[Grottnikk]

That sounds like a potentially challenging bit of game-making for a developer. I'd definitely give it a shot just for the novelty factor if nothing else. Part of the fun would be taking perks or level-up bonuses with vague descriptions just to see how they affect your character, I'd want to see how beefy looking I could make someone with tonnes of strength type perks .

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I don't consider JRPG's to be RPG's. One of the single biggest misnomers in the gaming in gaming, if you ask me. They tend to be more like interactive films, offering the player even less choice than your average first-person shooter.

But they offer complete freedom in terms of combat and character progression. So, yes, they are RPGs. You want choice? Play a table top game. The "choice" in video games is laughable in comparison. And less choice than shooters? Play something in the Shin Megami Tensei series.

 

[Macrobstar]

That's a great idea in theory, but it would be very problematic in practice. Consider you're in a raid, for example, and you don't know which spells or weapons do the most damage, and which armor has the most hit points. The most likely result, is that you'll get your ass handed to you, over and over again, until raiding has stopped being fun, and you'll move on to something else, in frustration, be it exploring different content in the game, or worse, playing a different game altogether.

You can tell power without stats by gathering more info on the spell or by testing it yourself.
Thats a problem that could be solved very easily in our hypothetical rpg, plus I think we're talking skyrim type game not MMO

 

[Biosophilogical]

-snip-

I agree, stats and numbers are very important aspects of an RPG, but I think the point was that instead of you getting to see the numbers and know exactly how much damage you will do, and how many spells you can cast, you learn by experience. So when you start out, you may only be able to do minor damage with your battle axe because you lack strength and skill, and rather than seeing each tiny incremental increase like you would if you could see the numbers, it all happens in the background, so you notice you are getting better when the improvement is enough to kill that person in one less hit, or you attack slightly faster, or you realise that you just cast three frost beams rather than two.

The same with weapons and armour, you don't see how much better they are than other weapons in numbers, you have to guess by their description/appearance. So it is still an RPG, but instead of playing as some puppet master with a stat-sheet, you play as the actual character; the character can't tell if their strength is at 40% or 47%, or if cleric armour will protect better against dark magic than chainmail, but they can guess and estimate based upon reason and performance.

OT: I like the idea, but it would need to be done very carefully to work.