Poll: Would you play an RPG that hides stats from the player?

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Then RPGs aren't the genre for you. Asking a genre to fundamentally change so you can better enjoy it shows that it might not be the genre for you. I'd like FPS to be more story driven and put less emphasis on the action. I don't like them that much in the first place. But me asking them to drastically change is unfair to fans of the genre and is unrealistic.
RPGs aren't the genre for me? Sez who? Screw that for a joke, I enjoy them.

Furthermore, I wasn't asking for the genre to change. The original question was whether or not I would play one with hidden stats. I just said I'd rather they remove the stats altogether. That's all. No different to you saying you'd rather shooters focus on story. (Agreed, incidentally.)
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Jan 23, 2011
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skywolfblue said:
s69-5 said:
skywolfblue said:
Zhukov said:
Sure.

Although I'd rather they just get rid of the stats altogether.
Agree.

RPG's are suppose to be about talking to the characters, learning their stories, and acquiring spifftastic stuff that LOOKS cool. Stats just get in the way, making people go for ugly stuff simply because it's +1 damage. Sooner stats go away, the sooner people get to wear what they want to wear.
The go play an action game or a table top RP and leave video game RPGs alone, since stats are what video game RPGs are all about.
"Role Playing" does not equate to "Stats". Stats might be used as a tool to facilitate role-play in some games, but Role Playing without stats can and does exist.

Dragon Age, Skyrim are examples of games that are definitely "Role Playing" without having the "+1 damage" style stats that typify classical D&D.
Dragon Age and Skyrim still have loads of stats and numbers. Hell, you can break Skyrim by combining Smithing, Alchemy, and Enchantment.
 

CrimsonBlaze

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Yeah, this sounds pretty cool. I also agree that a strategy guide would not necessarily be required because, as you described, some things would be obvious (steel stronger than wood, but steel heavier than wood).
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Zhukov said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Then RPGs aren't the genre for you. Asking a genre to fundamentally change so you can better enjoy it shows that it might not be the genre for you. I'd like FPS to be more story driven and put less emphasis on the action. I don't like them that much in the first place. But me asking them to drastically change is unfair to fans of the genre and is unrealistic.
RPGs aren't the genre for me? Sez who? Screw that for a joke, I enjoy them.

Furthermore, I wasn't asking for the genre to change. The original question was whether or not I would play one with hidden stats. I just said I'd rather they remove the stats altogether. That's all. No different to you saying you'd rather shooters focus on story. (Agreed, incidentally.)
Sorry. I just get the vibe that you hate RPGs. I apologize for crossing the line with my post.
 

Zhukov

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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Sorry. I just get the vibe that you hate RPGs. I apologize for crossing the line with my post.
Huh. I think you have me confused with someone else.

I enjoy RPGs, especially Bioware's stuff. Hell, the first game I ever bought was Spiderweb Software's Exile. (Screenshot [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ad/Exile_shot.png])

I'm just ambivalent about stats, that's all.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Zhukov said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Sorry. I just get the vibe that you hate RPGs. I apologize for crossing the line with my post.
Huh. I think you have me confused with someone else.

I enjoy RPGs, especially Bioware's stuff. Hell, the first game I ever bought was Spiderweb Software's Exile. (Screenshot [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ad/Exile_shot.png])

I'm just ambivalent about stats, that's all.
I think that it is all of the sarcastic remarks that you make on the Bioware news posts. :p
 

Zhukov

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Dec 29, 2009
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RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Zhukov said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Sorry. I just get the vibe that you hate RPGs. I apologize for crossing the line with my post.
Huh. I think you have me confused with someone else.

I enjoy RPGs, especially Bioware's stuff. Hell, the first game I ever bought was Spiderweb Software's Exile. (Screenshot [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ad/Exile_shot.png])

I'm just ambivalent about stats, that's all.
I think that it is all of the sarcastic remarks that you make on the Bioware news posts. :p
Well, I have a grumpy and cynical facade to maintain. Can't have people thinking I'm a fanboy.

*hides ME3 pre-order receipt*
 

Kevin Lyons

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You know, I would definitely play a game like this if there was a good way to be able to keep some characters from falling behind others. I'd imagine a game like this to be sort of like Fire Emblem because of your example with the soccer team, so I'd imagine that there would be some problems when you find out that Character B is actually a lot better in a certain situation than Character A, who you've been using throughout the whole game.
 

The Hero Killer

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Yes, I've always thought an RPG was about having a well developed story and playing a role in that story either a pre determined one or one that you make for yourself. I leave stats, numbers, and loot for dungeon crawler games like Diablo.
 

Sentox6

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remnant_phoenix said:
Nah, what I'm suggesting is that the quintessential aspect of the RPG should be the player's ability to make decisions that effect the story
That would mean retroactively re-labelling games, though; problematic at best. It also has the potential to undermine the definition you supplied earlier:

remnant_phoenix said:
1. to assume the attitudes, actions, discourse of (another), especially in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction
If the player is given choice in shaping the story outcome, then the possibility exists that the player will simply make choices that confirm their own personal attitudes, meaning that the player is roleplaying in an aesthetic sense only.

I guess I just don't see any real value in trying to change a genre label now.

remnant_phoenix said:
by proxy, gamers shouldn't be so up-in-arms about games like Mass Effect 2 supplanting stats for a more action-based system of play.
I'm not sure how this necessarily follows. It seems possible the gamers upset about the changes in ME2 were upset because of their actual gameplay preferences, rather than because a label was contravened.
 

remnant_phoenix

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Sentox6 said:
remnant_phoenix said:
Nah, what I'm suggesting is that the quintessential aspect of the RPG should be the player's ability to make decisions that effect the story
That would mean retroactively re-labelling games, though; problematic at best. It also has the potential to undermine the definition you supplied earlier:

remnant_phoenix said:
1. to assume the attitudes, actions, discourse of (another), especially in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction
If the player is given choice in shaping the story outcome, then the possibility exists that the player will simply make choices that confirm their own personal attitudes, meaning that the player is roleplaying in an aesthetic sense only.

I guess I just don't see any real value in trying to change a genre label now.

remnant_phoenix said:
by proxy, gamers shouldn't be so up-in-arms about games like Mass Effect 2 supplanting stats for a more action-based system of play.
I'm not sure how this necessarily follows. It seems possible the gamers upset about the changes in ME2 were upset because of their actual gameplay preferences, rather than because a label was contravened.
All good points, worthy of consideration.

I'm not really interested in changing genre labels. It would, as you said, get too confusing. Also, I'm in an extremely minority position, so my voice is drowned out by the opposition.

My grief is this: The assumption that "stats are what make an RPG an RPG" paves way for certain problems:

1) Lousy storytelling. I know too many people who are into tabletop not because they are interested in actually role-playing and crafting meaningful stories, but because they love the number-crunching and power-gaming, "I'm gonna make my character the most badass of all badasses!" If that's what some people like, I'm fine with that. My issue is that RPG developers see this behavior and assume that players care more for numbers and system than story and pathos. I've heard people rave about Demon's/Dark Souls, yet I've heard nothing regarding the quality, good or bad, of the game's story.

To me, the best RPGs will have a great system AND a great story. It's disheartening to see so many of those who are more interested in systems encourage developers (through buying power) to make games for people who are more interested in systems when RPG devs could be pushing the development of amazing game stories. When I was younger, the RPGs I played had the most interesting game stories. Recently, the most interesting game stories I've experienced have been outside the RPG genre in games like Red Dead Redemption and the Assassin's Creed series. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that focusing on system over story has contributed to this trend.

2) Unfair expectations. A game like Mass Effect 2 comes out, and some people go as far to argue that it's not an RPG, but a third-person shooter with some RPG elements. On the contrary, the role-playing remained intact. It was the stats that defied genre conventions. Why can we not have a role-playing game (a game where you play a role in a story) without a stat-focused system? The underlying assumption that an RPG must have a stat-based system is arbitrary, but people treat it like inviolable law.

3) Stifled creativity and innovation. In the tabletop world, there was a game that came out called Nobilis. It had an extremely simplified system. Each character has four attributes that are ranked from level 0 to level 4 (or 5, can't remember). The emphasis was on player/storyteller creativity and crafting fantastic stories that required creative thinking from everyone involved. The game did not sell well at all. Games like Nobilis and Mass Effect 2 try to stir the pot and do something different and they get turned because "an RPG HAS to have a detailed stat-based system." It's frustrating.
 

Kriptonite

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I would absolutely love to play a game like this. It seems much more of an adventure that way, an adventure that is easier for people to slip into. I like that idea quite a bit. I would really enjoy seeing something that functions in this way available in the near future.
 

Hyper-space

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Crono1973 said:
Hyper-space said:
King of the Sandbox said:
Of course. RPG's are about role-playing, not roll-playing.
Oh snap!

But yeah, obnoxious stats (NUMBERS EVERYWHERE) stand in the way of complete immersion.
Sitting on your couch, looking at a TV screen with a controller in hand stands in the way of immersion. Your cell phone going off in a medieval world stands in the way of immersion, etc...

So say you get a game with hidden stats, will the fact that there is magic stand in the way of immersion?
Your cellphone is not part of the game, and no, if you think that realism is immersion, THEN THINK AGAIN BOYO.

Immersion is the absence of things in a game that remind you that it is a game. While things like menus and consoles will still have to be there (at least, for now), it is stuff like numbers that constantly remind you that it is a game.



Its the same reason why many games choose not to have cut-scenes, and instead have everything happen in the game. Its because cut-scenes take you out of the experience

Crono1973 said:
RPG's with stats visible has lasted many many years. If they start making RPG's with hidden stats, I bet they won't last as long. There is a reason RPG's are stat heavy, it's because people like them that way.
So RPG's should just stagnate, design-wise? We should never, ever, ever try and innovate and instead rely on the same 20-year old formula? Fucking hell, why not just play the same title over and over again if you don't want anything to change?
 

Epona

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Hyper-space said:
Crono1973 said:
Hyper-space said:
King of the Sandbox said:
Of course. RPG's are about role-playing, not roll-playing.
Oh snap!

But yeah, obnoxious stats (NUMBERS EVERYWHERE) stand in the way of complete immersion.
Sitting on your couch, looking at a TV screen with a controller in hand stands in the way of immersion. Your cell phone going off in a medieval world stands in the way of immersion, etc...

So say you get a game with hidden stats, will the fact that there is magic stand in the way of immersion?
Your cellphone is not part of the game, and no, if you think that realism is immersion, THEN THINK AGAIN BOYO.

Immersion is the absence of things in a game that remind you that it is a game. While things like menus and consoles will still have to be there (at least, for now), it is stuff like numbers that constantly remind you that it is a game.



Its the same reason why many games choose not to have cut-scenes, and instead have everything happen in the game. Its because cut-scenes take you out of the experience

Crono1973 said:
RPG's with stats visible has lasted many many years. If they start making RPG's with hidden stats, I bet they won't last as long. There is a reason RPG's are stat heavy, it's because people like them that way.
So RPG's should just stagnate, design-wise? We should never, ever, ever try and innovate and instead rely on the same 20-year old formula? Fucking hell, why not just play the same title over and over again if you don't want anything to change?
There is so much wrong with this post but calling me "BOYO" just lets me know that it isn't worthwhile to waste my time explaining it to you. Let me just say, you wanna play a game without stats, go play one. Don't waste your time telling me how the games I have been playing for 20 years aren't immersive enough for you because they have fuckin' numbers.
 

Axyun

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I really, really like this suggestion and it's something I've been looking into myself for a long time. I'm actually in the process of designing something similar (but not identical).

A stat-less RPG would definitely be fun to play. It will have some design challenges to overcome which will probably require some ingenuity and innovation.

The reason why stats are so prolific in games, especially lengthy ones like traditional RPGs, is that they fool the player into a false sense of progression and difficulty. A bunny you kill at level 1 is not much more difficult than a demon you kill at level 50 or whatever. The difficulty in the challenge lies solely in the difference of numbers but the execution (ie. the skill required by the player) remains the same: choose an attack that will efficiently deal lethal damage to the enemy.

Sure, some games do genuinely become tougher over time as enemies employ more complex tactics but it is those tactics that make the encounters difficult, not the numbers. A demon that only auto-attacks is easier to kill than a demon that knows how to flank. Given the same tactics, the demon and the bunny are no different in difficulty, stats not being a factor.

On the player's side, some sort of progress indicator still adds value because people do become more skilled at a task over time. But, in the real world, a skilled swordsman is better than a novice not because he can take in more blows (bigger HP bar) or deal 5 times more damage, its because he knows how to avoid taking lethal damage and can employ skills and tactics out of the reach of the novice. Therefore, an RPG of this nature should emphasize skill progression on level-up instead of attribute progression.

Going back to our demon, a low level player will fail against a demon because his reaction time, speed of execution, and limited skills and tactics are not sufficient to overcome the threat. A high level player, on the other hand, has an array of offensive and defensive skills at his disposal to handle the situation, couple with faster execution time and more stamina (not HP). However, even though the player is more skilled in-game, the encounter is still more difficult than taking on a simpler enemy at low levels because it requires the player to execute a more complex strategy, making the encounter truly more difficult instead of falsely difficult by just making the creature have bigger stats.

Now this does not exclude stats altogether. A bear is definitely stronger and heartier than a mouse. This approach should attempt to model relative strengths through more than stats alone (hidden or otherwise).

The downside to this approach, and the reason why it's probably not more prolific, is that there is a soft cap for how long the game can extend this concept. Traditional RPGs can last forever since it just boils down to making the next set of tougher creatures have bigger numbers and requiring the player to level up to the point where they can match said numbers. This system will cap on the player's ability to execute on complex strategies expeditiously with a razon-thin margin of error. That cap is variable per player, variable for the enjoyment of the player, and has a definitive ceiling.
 

Hyper-space

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Crono1973 said:
There is so much wrong with this post but calling me "BOYO" just lets me know that it isn't worthwhile to waste my time explaining it to you. Let me just say, you wanna play a game without stats, go play one. Don't waste your time telling me how the games I have been playing for 20 years aren't immersive enough for you because they have fuckin' numbers.
I don't think you have an argument, seeing as you are getting all pissy because I called you boyo (english/welsh slang for friend or mate), which of all things is pretty harmless and friendly.

I mean really, you had enough time to write your response, why not bring up some FEISTY new points instead of just "it is how it has always been".