Pope Francis: “Being Homosexual Isn’t a Crime.”

tstorm823

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As an avid stoner, you're full of shit, dude. Some people just get high for fun.
People do a lot of thing for fun unsuccessfully. That happens to be one of them.
I didn't say "partnership", I said "marriage".
I had a lot more post than that sentence.
You think that's all relationships do? They have no positive impact on the participants?
They don't have a positive impact in a vacuum of purpose. Like, you say having a partner has demonstrable positive effects on people, but that is undoubtedly amongst people seeking relationships. If you take the case of nuns, they swear themselves to a life without that sort of relationship, and live longer, happier, healthier lives than possibly any other group on the planet.
Purpose isn't a cheat code for happiness either.

At best, I suppose you could argue that purpose creates opportunities to be rewarded. If you believe your purpose is to be a parent and you tie your sense of self deeply to being a parent, then you will probably place a lot of value on things that signify being a good parent.
We have views of the world two different to even really discuss this. You expect people to be happy from a strong sense of self, and I expect people to be happy from leaving that behind.
You do frequently put significant effort into hiding or downplaying your real beliefs. True or not, I don't think it's an unfair accusation.
This entire thread is now about my beliefs. That's not hiding.

I think my beliefs are good. Saying so is not downplaying them.
Don't expect that much from me.
Nobody expects much from you.
 

Bedinsis

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I had a lot more post than that sentence.
I know. I don't however think it actually answered my question.

The conception of marriage as laid out by you is that it is a vocation to create children, and therefore homosexuals cannot be allowed to marry since they cannot. I therefore presented an alternative way for homosexuals to perform the vocation of marriage and asked whether that would work within the parameters. You said that the church would say no, and that you had no objection of that arrangement as a partnership.

It wasn't whether it would work within the parameters of a partnership that I was curious about, it was within the parameters of marriage. And if the answer is that you do not think you should say what the church should do since its their conception of marriage under discussion, I ask philosophically: the way you understand scripture, would homosexuals adopting children be sufficient to sanction their partnership as a marriage or not? You've said the motivation that lust is a sin, which I understood to mean that homosexuals can only boink to fulfil lust and therefore their relationship cannot be sanctioned under the conception of marriage. If that is the sole motivation then it would mean there is no objection to acts of homosexuality present, it is to acts of lust.

I'm also not sure I got the sentence that contained the phrase "it takes two to tango" so sorry if I ask questions already answered.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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If you take the case of nuns, they swear themselves to a life without that sort of relationship, and live longer, happier, healthier lives than possibly any other group on the planet.
I think nuns are probably not nearly as happy as they say they are. I think it's much more that they experience less stress because they don't have to really think about anything, make any decisions, or provide for themselves. They're basically like adult children.

I mean, I know that they say they're happy, but to say that they're unhappy would undermine their entire lives and service to their god, so of course they aren't going to admit that.
 

Satinavian

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I think nuns are probably not nearly as happy as they say they are. I think it's much more that they experience less stress because they don't have to really think about anything, make any decisions, or provide for themselves. They're basically like adult children.
While i don't agree with the statement of nuns having longer, happier and healthier lives, i don't think your characterization is particularly on the mark. You realize that the life of nuns is in by far most cases organized by nuns who make all the important decisions ? And that they generally have to provide for themselves ?
 

Dirty Hipsters

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While i don't agree with the statement of nuns having longer, happier and healthier lives, i don't think your characterization is particularly on the mark. You realize that the life of nuns is in by far most cases organized by nuns who make all the important decisions ? And that they generally have to provide for themselves ?
Nuns don't provide for themselves, they're provided for through donations by their community as well as the church.
 

Satinavian

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That depends a lot on the specific convent and the order. But nuns and friars are pretty much the same here.

From the beginning cloisters and convents were a lot about both autonomy and living somewhat removed from the greater society. Both more or less require a fair amout of self-sufficiency and that has never really changed.
 
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Baffle

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I think nuns are probably not nearly as happy as they say they are. I think it's much more that they experience less stress because they don't have to really think about anything, make any decisions, or provide for themselves. They're basically like adult children.
Nuns beat up kids because they know adults in the real world would thrash them. I reckon my mum could beat up a nun and she's 65 and only 5 foot tall.
 
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Avnger

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Nuns beat up kids because they know adults in the real world would thrash them. I reckon my mum could beat up a nun and she's 65 and only 5 foot tall.
In the US at least, the average Catholic nun is age 80 with less than 1% under age 40, so I'd give your mom a fair chance too.
 
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Terminal Blue

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We have views of the world two different to even really discuss this. You expect people to be happy from a strong sense of self, and I expect people to be happy from leaving that behind.
No, that's not really it at all.

At its most basic, happiness is a product of the reward system in the human brain. That's why I have repeatedly pointed out that nothing a person does or thinks can guarantee their happiness, because happiness does not come from you at all, it comes from mechanisms that are entirely outside of your direct control. That system isn't the product of rational design, it doesn't reward you in straightforward ways for doing things that are good for you, it is the product of random evolution and its "purpose", if any evolved mechanism can have a purpose, is to keep you motivated. Happiness is a convenient side effect of the need to produce motivation, it's a neurochemical state you are supposed to become addicted to and spend your entire life pursuing while your brain rations it out in small enough doses that you keep chasing it. The only sense in which you have any control over your own happiness is through your ability to exploit the mechanisms of reward, by setting goals you can achieve or desires you can meet, but this is not a simple process and can easily backfire.

There is no secret to being happy, and that's why I believe this Prager-esque, Calvinistic idea of happiness as something you owe yourself or the world is fundamentally misleading and ableist. There's nothing wrong with not being happy, it doesn't evidence any lack of moral quality or that you're not living a good life. In fact, if you lived a perfect life and succeeded in everything you did and always achieved whatever you felt your "purpose" was you'd probably find yourself very miserable.

Feeling empty and wanting more out of life is normal. It's how you're supposed to feel, it's the engine that keeps you moving, and without it you wouldn't have moments of real happiness.
 
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Silvanus

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They don't have a positive impact in a vacuum of purpose. Like, you say having a partner has demonstrable positive effects on people, but that is undoubtedly amongst people seeking relationships. If you take the case of nuns, they swear themselves to a life without that sort of relationship, and live longer, happier, healthier lives than possibly any other group on the planet.
So it's true... "amongst people seeking relationships"?

Well fucking obviously.

You're the one seemingly insistent that people need a purpose beyond that in order to justify it, and refusing to acknowledge that it's enough of a wish on its own.
 

tstorm823

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happiness does not come from you at all, it comes from mechanisms that are entirely outside of your direct control.
I cannot disagree with this more. I believe you to be 100% incorrect here, to the point of being literally the opposite of truth.
So it's true... "amongst people seeking relationships"?

Well fucking obviously.

You're the one seemingly insistent that people need a purpose beyond that in order to justify it, and refusing to acknowledge that it's enough of a wish on its own.
Seeking a relationship is not an immutable characteristic. That is a choice. Many people hove found the perceived misery and loneliness of a single life disappears the moment they decide to stop dating.
I therefore presented an alternative way for homosexuals to perform the vocation of marriage and asked whether that would work within the parameters. You said that the church would say no, and that you had no objection of that arrangement as a partnership.
I would not object to someone calling that a marriage. The Catholic Church would not, and I would not actively apply that description, I would certainly leave that determination to the people involved. If a gay couple pursued marriage specifically to adopt, I can respect that.
I'm also not sure I got the sentence that contained the phrase "it takes two to tango" so sorry if I ask questions already answered.
I just meant that raising children basically requires, at minimum, two people. Not saying people don't manage single parenthood, but the logistics are insane.
 

Silvanus

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Seeking a relationship is not an immutable characteristic. That is a choice. Many people hove found the perceived misery and loneliness of a single life disappears the moment they decide to stop dating.
None of this addresses what I was saying. I never said relationships conveying greater satisfaction and quality of life was an absolute. It's nonetheless true that for billions of people, they do.

So the question remains, why should we need another purpose to justify a relationship? For those who do want companionship, romance, and intimacy-- billions of people-- why is their improved quality of life not enough of a purpose? Why should they deny themselves that just because the relationship wouldn't serve a different, specific purpose that some religion has in mind?
 
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Terminal Blue

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I cannot disagree with this more. I believe you to be 100% incorrect here, to the point of being literally the opposite of truth.
Of course you do, because you need the Calvinistic idea of happiness as a signifier of moral worth. It's not enough to believe in some hypothetical possibility of salvation after death, there has to be a way to know who, in this world, has been saved.

And this is why there is absolutely no relationship between your beliefs and historical Catholicism. Medieval Catholics didn't live in a world where their personal moral conduct actually mattered. Their God didn't care what you did with your genitals unless it crossed an arbitrary line into threatening some greater social or natural order. They did not expect or require each other to live some kind of perfect moral life, because they understood that such a life runs contrary to the nature of humanity. Even monasticism does not change the nature of humanity, that's why it's a sacrifice (this also accomodated the reality that a lot of people in monastic communities either didn't want to be there or were there because they had no other way to support themselves).

Then along comes Calvin and the idea of predestination, and suddenly there are two types of people in the world. There are a small group of people who behave morally, who don't drink or have extramarital sex and who live a humble, pious existence and then then there are the vast majority of humanity who are just lazy, slutty drunks. Even Calvinists, though, weren't divorced from reality enough to believe that everyone would just be happier if they stopped drinking and fucking, they knew that most people would be very miserable. The point was that if you could live that life and not be miserable, it proved that you had a morally superior nature to everyone else, that you were predestined for salvation. But in practice, this meant a miserable existence of constant self-vigilance, it requires constant proof that not only do you not sin like everyone else but that you don't even want to. Catholic confession is replaced with puritan repression.

And that's what you're talking about, isn't it? It's repression. People are sad because they have desires that aren't being met. Well, just pretend you don't have those desires at all. Keep telling yourself you don't actually want these things until you believe it. Delude yourself into thinking that your empty, joyless life is somehow the best life you could live. Because the important thing isn't whether you are happy, it's whether you look happy. If you don't look happy, how will people know you are better than them?

That's what it actually means to find happiness beyond a sense of self, right? It means accepting happiness (or the outward appearance thereof) as a moral obligation you owe other people.

It's not any more convincing now than it was in the 16th and 17th centuries when the puritans got shipped off to found their own shitty country (whose powerful religious lobby would continue to be influenced by their beliefs for centuries). In fact, it's a lot less convincing because we actually know, in a material, scientific sense that humans don't work that way.
 
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tstorm823

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And that's what you're talking about, isn't it? It's repression. People are sad because they have desires that aren't being met. Well, just pretend you don't have those desires at all. Keep telling yourself you don't actually want these things until you believe it. Delude yourself into thinking that your empty, joyless life is somehow the best life you could live. Because the important thing isn't whether you are happy, it's whether you look happy. If you don't look happy, how will people know you are better than them?
You are the one deluding yourself. You convince yourself that you need things beyond your control to attain happiness so that you don't have to take any responsibility. But no amount of the world around you is ever going to make you happy, nor can it take joy away from you. You are in control of yourself. A life is only empty and joyless if the person makes it that way for themselves. It doesn't matter if you're having sex or not, making money or not, drinking or not, whatever... none of that matters. People indulge in things under the delusion that they will find happiness from the outside, but that's not where you find happiness. Real joy can only come from within. I don't know what mental gymnastics you're doing to imagine that's a Calvinist idea, as though dozens of religions, philosophers, and psychologists have independently reached that same simple conclusion.

I'm not looking down on you. You're looking down on yourself.
None of this addresses what I was saying. I never said relationships conveying greater satisfaction and quality of life was an absolute. It's nonetheless true that for billions of people, they do.

So the question remains, why should we need another purpose to justify a relationship? For those who do want companionship, romance, and intimacy-- billions of people-- why is their improved quality of life not enough of a purpose? Why should they deny themselves that just because the relationship wouldn't serve a different, specific purpose that some religion has in mind?
Because their motivation to want those things determines whether wanting those things will lead them to something worth having. Do you not see all the people pursuing vain, shallow relationships that end in bitter fallout?
 

Kwak

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cannot disagree with this more. I believe you to be 100% incorrect here, to the point of being literally the opposite of truth.
Lol, imagine thinking you're seperate to the universe you literally are formed from.
 
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Buyetyen

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Because their motivation to want those things determines whether wanting those things will lead them to something worth having. Do you not see all the people pursuing vain, shallow relationships that end in bitter fallout?
Like I said, I know childless couples who are happy. They don't need your church's approval to live their lives.