Aardvaarkman said:
Look, it's time to put this to an end. You are not listening to me, we are arguing in circles, and it's not interesting. Just a couple of final points:
It's hard to listen when you aren't providing any evidence in your favor. I have seen a few documentaries on sex slaves, and the sex trade, it is a horrible thing. However, that does not reflect porn, and I'll provide some interviews/documentaries.
Aardvaarkman said:
Firstly, the fact that they are not kidnapped or forced to do it, doesn't prove they are enjoying it. That's just poor logic.
No, it's poor logic to think the sex trade/sex slave thing is the result of porn.
Aardvaarkman said:
Secondly, the thought of using sex for pleasure and career does not get under my skin. What annoys me is that you seem to be highly overestimating the pleasure aspect, and playing down the negatives.
I am not down playing the negatives. I am pointing out that well there are negatives, people who do porn find the positives outweigh the negatives, and most who do porn, do it out of choice, not force.
Aardvaarkman said:
Porn is what we call prostitution when it is filmed. Prostitution is having sex for money. Porn is just a sub-genre of prostitution. Much like being an executive at a large games studio.
You have me there. It's legal prostitution how bout that.
Aardvaarkman said:
That's why it's a straw man. Nobody here argued that you couldn't enjoy sex and make a career out of it. I certainly didn't. So, who are you arguing with?
But you are. You're saying that most who do porn, do it out of necessity, not of free will. It doesn't make it a career, it makes it, if anything, just a job.
Aardvaarkman said:
Which is exactly what my contention was with you in the first place! You posted anecdotal evidence and claimed it proved that most participants enjoy being in porn. I said that your evidence didn't prove anything, unless you had done a peer-reviewed survey of porn actors.
Well I don't have a peer review, I have some interviews/documentaries. See "The Dark Side of Porn", "The Secret Lives of Adult Stars", and I haven't seen this one, but read a little about it, "Me and My Sex Slaves". I have a feeling you'll enjoy it.
Aardvaarkman said:
Now, when I provide my anecdotal evidence, without claiming it proves anything you say it doesn't prove anything unless I survey a majority of porn actors? I agree! It doesn't, just as your anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything.
Then you don't have a leg to stand on. If you have no evidence backing up your argument, you have just an opinion. And if this your opinion, then it's fine, although you could do with some more information.
Aardvaarkman said:
We could have avoided this whole argument in the first place if you had've agreed with that. I didn't come here to prove anything,
You did come here to prove me wrong. Which is untrue except for the porn = prostitution part.
Aardvaarkman said:
I just came here to say that things are more complicated than you were making them out to be. Nobody has a complete picture of this, and there certainly isn't a clear-cut answer. Yet you repeatedly claimed your position to be absolute fact.
I claim it as fact as I have evidence backing me up. Until more evidence is shown that more women do porn out of necessity rather than choice, I will stand by what I say. Everyone however is making a clear cut picture that those that do porn, do it because it's "easy money", "they do it because they're whores" "they have no souls/dignity" etc etc. That is a very wrong and naive view, and we need to get past that.
Aardvaarkman said:
No, I did not. Can you please point out where I actually said that? All I said is that abuse of women is a serious issue and it happens in the porn industry. I never said that all porn was forced prostitution. I think you might not even be bothering to actually read what I write.
You said most is though. And no, you say forced prostitution and the sex trade is because of porn.
Aardvaarkman said:
"While it is true that there are some women who enjoy working in porn, the sex industry is generally rather exploitative. There are many links to organized crime. A significant number of women depicted in porn are not doing it out of choice."
I'll get more evidence after I write this.
Aardvaarkman said:
"I highly doubt most people get into porn because they think it would be an enjoyable career. Most of them aren't being gang-banged because they enjoy it, they are doing it for the money. If you took away the money, would they be expressing their sexuality in the same way?"
Aardvaarkman said:
"But he wouldn't do it if there weren't demand for it, and money to be made. Again, part of the porn industry."
"Forced prostitution in the production of porn. And, by the way, porn is a form of prostitution. Where do you think most porn actors come from? Do you think that maybe a lot of them might come from a prostitution background? Or from the needs of financial circumstances? Or in your fantasy world do people just decide... "Hmmm.. what kind of career do I want? Doctor? Actor? Scientist? Nah, I'll become a porn star instead!""
"You keep missing the point. There is loads of forced prostitution in the porn industry"
Aardvaarkman said:
No, using your body to express your sexuality is not objectifying. But that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about the depiction of women in porn. Much of it casts the woman as a simple sex object with no agency, who simply has acts performed on her body. Who is often subject to violence and humiliation. That is objectifying.
I don't see much of violence or humiliation, but when I do, I see it in equal amounts for both sides. However, when just straight up sex between a man and a women happens, you can talk dirty, that isn't humiliating unless either the male or the female says so. Even it was true, and the male domination over the female porn greatly outnumbered the women dominating men porn, it doesn't have as much of an impact as you make it out to be. Yes, you'll see a few cases of people doing it, blaming it on porn, but it wasn't porn that made them do it. It was their own views on relationships and sex.
Aardvaarkman said:
Although it exists, very little mainstream porn presents women as empowered equals. Whether the actor is personally liberated or not, they are playing a role that is not.
Plenty of porn shows women in control. However either way, they find it enjoyable and liberating.
Aardvaarkman said:
You talk a lot about liberation and empowerment, but that's not how women are portrayed in most porn.
In some they are, in some they aren't. Look for it, you'll find it. Again, it's how they feel about doing porn, not just how they act in porn.
Aardvaarkman said:
Most women view the way women are portrayed in porn as liberating? Throwing around another unsubstantiated claim? You have some kind of telepathic access to the hive mind of women?
Well yes, if you count TV and the internet. Take a look at the Slut Parade some time, not just for women in sexy attire, but it what they have to say.
