That's why: Because most guy gamers are idiots. (No offense, seriously. Just bear with me)Susan Arendt said:Nobody but an absolute idiot is going to think that because he saw a porn star getting paid to "pwn noobs with her boobs" that non-porn star girls are going to do the same thing.
Oh, I know the kind of guys you're talking about, believe me, but I've found them to be the exception, not the rule. I think guys - all guys, really, but nerd guys in particular - don't get enough credit when it comes to stuff like this. They like boobs, sure, but they also recognize that there's a difference between the fantasy of girl and the reality of girl. I think nerd culture panders to men a lot more than general culture (though I may just be more aware of nerd culture), because there's this perception that nerd boys are so unfamiliar with Real Life Girls that if you flash some tits their way they'll respond in true Pavlovian fashion. And yes, that does happen with a certain segment (you know who you are) but for the most part I think guys see it for what it is.Beautiful End said:That's why: Because most guy gamers are idiots. (No offense, seriously. Just bear with me)Susan Arendt said:Nobody but an absolute idiot is going to think that because he saw a porn star getting paid to "pwn noobs with her boobs" that non-porn star girls are going to do the same thing.
I've worked at a game retail store for a while now and I've seen all sorts of things: Guys walking out of my store simply because there's only girls working that shift (I believe the guy's exact words were "Holy crap! There's only girls in here!" before he walked out), guys who are either afraid of girls who play videogames or think of them as dumb and insignificant (Another example that comes to mind is a guy walking to the store, a female employee approaching him and offering help only for him to say no, turn around and ask some other guy employee about Call of Duty. This actually happens every week, the least), guys buying games like X Blades and Bayonetta simply because of the cover only to come back a couple of days later demanding a refund, guys who claim to be macho wacho FPS/Madden experts and, in vulgar terms, when they talk to their friends, they're just measuring their male reproductive organs with each other, and so much more, i can't even list it all here.
It is refreshing to meet those few, unique and awesome gamers who are not biased and who are mature enough to differentiate between a game with boobs on the cover and a good game. And sadly, those mature people are rare to find; usually they're a minority, if you will, because they don't go around causing havoc because of stuff like this; they're mature, like you said. People who can play God of War or Dragon Age's sex scenes without giggling like a little girl or replaying the whole thing over and over again.
I honestly don't care what these girls do. They wanna be different, I guess, and in a way, they're the first ones to try that. Yeah, alright. But what I fear is that some people are gonna relate porn with girls and gaming, people who won't even bother to read the entire article. It would be simple to ignore them, but it still bothers me.
I guess I've just had a bad experience with guys like this. Most nerds I've met (Including some friends of mine) are so unsuccessful with girls that they just focus on fantasy girls to the point that when a real girl comes their way, they let it go. I actually had a friend whose sole goal in life was to find a girl in this world that resembled Rei from Neon Genesis Evangelion. I doubt he ever stopped to think if he was looking for a good girl, someone he could relate to, someone he had something in common, and so on. No, he wanted Rei, the girl with the spandex suit and voluptuous figure. He wanted her to be his and that's it.Susan Arendt said:Oh, I know the kind of guys you're talking about, believe me, but I've found them to be the exception, not the rule. I think guys - all guys, really, but nerd guys in particular - don't get enough credit when it comes to stuff like this. They like boobs, sure, but they also recognize that there's a difference between the fantasy of girl and the reality of girl. I think nerd culture panders to men a lot more than general culture (though I may just be more aware of nerd culture), because there's this perception that nerd boys are so unfamiliar with Real Life Girls that if you flash some tits their way they'll respond in true Pavlovian fashion. And yes, that does happen with a certain segment (you know who you are) but for the most part I think guys see it for what it is.Beautiful End said:That's why: Because most guy gamers are idiots. (No offense, seriously. Just bear with me)Susan Arendt said:Nobody but an absolute idiot is going to think that because he saw a porn star getting paid to "pwn noobs with her boobs" that non-porn star girls are going to do the same thing.
I've worked at a game retail store for a while now and I've seen all sorts of things: Guys walking out of my store simply because there's only girls working that shift (I believe the guy's exact words were "Holy crap! There's only girls in here!" before he walked out), guys who are either afraid of girls who play videogames or think of them as dumb and insignificant (Another example that comes to mind is a guy walking to the store, a female employee approaching him and offering help only for him to say no, turn around and ask some other guy employee about Call of Duty. This actually happens every week, the least), guys buying games like X Blades and Bayonetta simply because of the cover only to come back a couple of days later demanding a refund, guys who claim to be macho wacho FPS/Madden experts and, in vulgar terms, when they talk to their friends, they're just measuring their male reproductive organs with each other, and so much more, i can't even list it all here.
It is refreshing to meet those few, unique and awesome gamers who are not biased and who are mature enough to differentiate between a game with boobs on the cover and a good game. And sadly, those mature people are rare to find; usually they're a minority, if you will, because they don't go around causing havoc because of stuff like this; they're mature, like you said. People who can play God of War or Dragon Age's sex scenes without giggling like a little girl or replaying the whole thing over and over again.
I honestly don't care what these girls do. They wanna be different, I guess, and in a way, they're the first ones to try that. Yeah, alright. But what I fear is that some people are gonna relate porn with girls and gaming, people who won't even bother to read the entire article. It would be simple to ignore them, but it still bothers me.
I'm simultaneously wondering how on Earth you survived high school, and who the hell taught you how to draw conclusions from things.Cid SilverWing said:I'm offended. Absolutely offended.
That they have to resort to boobs to attract male attention proves undeniably that the gaming industry has sunk as far as it can without re-enacting the crash of '83.
I think I would disagree; its not that its "nerd culture" and nerds can't deal with real life girls (well, I don't think the majority can, but I mean that's not why this site is about to exist), its just that its male-dominated. As I said above, plenty of different male-dominated areas outside of nerd-zones do the same thing.Susan Arendt said:Oh, I know the kind of guys you're talking about, believe me, but I've found them to be the exception, not the rule. I think guys - all guys, really, but nerd guys in particular - don't get enough credit when it comes to stuff like this. They like boobs, sure, but they also recognize that there's a difference between the fantasy of girl and the reality of girl. I think nerd culture panders to men a lot more than general culture (though I may just be more aware of nerd culture), because there's this perception that nerd boys are so unfamiliar with Real Life Girls that if you flash some tits their way they'll respond in true Pavlovian fashion. And yes, that does happen with a certain segment (you know who you are) but for the most part I think guys see it for what it is.
Interestingly, I'd be more concerned about the potential implications if they didn't take their clothes off. The emphasis, to me, seems clear: these aren't gamers who're taking their tops off, they're girls who take their tops off playing games.Beautiful End said:I guess I've just had a bad experience with guys like this. Most nerds I've met (Including some friends of mine) are so unsuccessful with girls that they just focus on fantasy girls to the point that when a real girl comes their way, they let it go. I actually had a friend whose sole goal in life was to find a girl in this world that resembled Rei from Neon Genesis Evangelion. I doubt he ever stopped to think if he was looking for a good girl, someone he could relate to, someone he had something in common, and so on. No, he wanted Rei, the girl with the spandex suit and voluptuous figure. He wanted her to be his and that's it.
But I digress. I understand what you're saying and I agree. But...the simple replies that this topic is getting kinda make me change my mind.
I suppose I cannot judge the quality of that site until I watch a walkthrough or something. But personally, when I see naked people, I think they're desperate for attention and they're trying to overcompensate for their lack of...something, in this case, game knowledge. I support people like Lisa Foiles who is a well known and reputable gamer girl, someone who you can take seriously when she talks about games. But it wouldn't be the same if she was topless; *I* would feel uncomfortable, kinda the same way you would feel if...I don't know, Pierce Brosnan was whispering into your ear but he had horribly bad breath. And I think that's the problem everyone's having (I'm not acknowledging the immature replies like "OMFG SKANKZ! and such): girls SHOULD be taken seriously when it comes to playing video games; it's not like we're aliens. And yes, while these girls don't represent all girls in general, I cannot help but think they still represent gamer girls; those of us who are not public figures.
Right idea, wrong execution. Which makes me think of...
You're quite right, really, on all points. I guess I'm just more sensitive to it within the realms of nerd culture, perhaps because I relate to nerds so much better than "normal" guys. And don't even get me started about how much I hate how men are depicted. According to TV, you lot can't cook, take care of children, or do laundry. The mere act of making toast or sending the kids off to school is likely to result in the house catching fire, and of course, even when a woman is the one that's wrong, you still have to apologize. Because...erm...something.Woodsey said:I think I would disagree; its not that its "nerd culture" and nerds can't deal with real life girls (well, I don't think the majority can, but I mean that's not why this site is about to exist), its just that its male-dominated. As I said above, plenty of different male-dominated areas outside of nerd-zones do the same thing.Susan Arendt said:Oh, I know the kind of guys you're talking about, believe me, but I've found them to be the exception, not the rule. I think guys - all guys, really, but nerd guys in particular - don't get enough credit when it comes to stuff like this. They like boobs, sure, but they also recognize that there's a difference between the fantasy of girl and the reality of girl. I think nerd culture panders to men a lot more than general culture (though I may just be more aware of nerd culture), because there's this perception that nerd boys are so unfamiliar with Real Life Girls that if you flash some tits their way they'll respond in true Pavlovian fashion. And yes, that does happen with a certain segment (you know who you are) but for the most part I think guys see it for what it is.
Talk shows and magazines aimed at women can be just as crazy in their portrayal of men, and aim at brewing up that "cut off their dicks!" attitude. Its just how things are. This site and those magazines and those talk shows and those other lad's mags sites all do it because it taps into several things that a particular gender dominates at once.
Obviously its there to generate views but I don't think its, "look how easy nerds are to rope in compared to normal guys," as it is, "guys love these two things most, let's put them together."
But yeah... I think I'm disagreeing with you. I don't really know now.
Firstly, the fact that they are not kidnapped or forced to do it, doesn't prove they are enjoying it. That's just poor logic. Secondly, the thought of using sex for pleasure and career does not get under my skin. What annoys me is that you seem to be highly overestimating the pleasure aspect, and playing down the negatives.awsome117 said:Because the majority aren't forced prostitutes who were kidnapped at a young age to only make porn. Why does the thought of using sex for not only pleasure, but a career get under your skin so much?Aardvaarkman said:How does a few interviews prove that the majority of women in porn enjoy it, and are perfectly happy doing it?
Porn is what we call prostitution when it is filmed. Prostitution is having sex for money. Porn is just a sub-genre of prostitution. Much like being an executive at a large games studio.awsome117 said:No actually it's not. It would be prostitution if it wasn't filmed.Aardvaarkman said:Forced prostitution in the production of porn. And, by the way, porn is a form of prostitution.
That's why it's a straw man. Nobody here argued that you couldn't enjoy sex and make a career out of it. I certainly didn't. So, who are you arguing with?awsome117 said:No, I'm making an argument that people can enjoy sex and make a career out of it.Aardvaarkman said:This has got to be the biggest straw man you've been pushing in this thread. That if somehow one has problems with the porn industry, one must be sexually repressed. Nobody is making the argument that one can't enjoy sex.
Which is exactly what my contention was with you in the first place! You posted anecdotal evidence and claimed it proved that most participants enjoy being in porn. I said that your evidence didn't prove anything, unless you had done a peer-reviewed survey of porn actors.awsome117 said:Same with anything, you'll find people who hate their job/didn't go into for the right reasons, and of course it'll be a negative experience. Again, like you keep telling me, how do these girls represent the majority. Unless you dated at least half from each strip club around the US/Europe, then you have no case really.Aardvaarkman said:As a matter of fact, I have had relationships with women who have been strippers, ex-prostitutes and, yes, been in porn. I'm no stranger to kinky sexual practices. But I'm also no stranger to the emotional damage those things can cause. And yes, some of them have said that some aspects are empowering or enjoyable. But overwhelmingly, the overall experience is negative.
No, I did not. Can you please point out where I actually said that? All I said is that abuse of women is a serious issue and it happens in the porn industry. I never said that all porn was forced prostitution. I think you might not even be bothering to actually read what I write.awsome117 said:No, you claimed it's all forced prostitution with young girls who have been kidnapped.Aardvaarkman said:All I said is that your claim that the porn industry is mostly all fun and games, it's all just about liberated sex, is rather questionable. In my experience it's a lot more complicated than that.
No, using your body to express your sexuality is not objectifying. But that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about the depiction of women in porn. Much of it casts the woman as a simple sex object with no agency, who simply has acts performed on her body. Who is often subject to violence and humiliation. That is objectifying.awsome117 said:Yes there are. Just not the majority of it. Again what about men! Men are in porn to you know. But as you pointed out, it is a fantasy world, porn. Where all men have giant dicks, and women have giant racks and the like. It is a place where you can see your fantasies. Using your body to express your sexuality is not "objectifying".
Most women view the way women are portrayed in porn as liberating? Throwing around another unsubstantiated claim? You have some kind of telepathic access to the hive mind of women?awsome117 said:That's how most women view it. Sure you'll find lots of women against that, but you'll also find many who approve and love it.Aardvaarkman said:You talk a lot about liberation and empowerment, but that's not how women are portrayed in most porn.
I suppose in that sense you're right. It's really smart out of them to take their clothes off in front of gamers. I assume the vast majority will be guys because, let's face it, a girl might watch the show out of curiosity but a guy will watch the show even if they hate games. So I applaud the ladies for gaining such big audience already, and the channel hasn't even been released!Susan Arendt said:Interestingly, I'd be more concerned about the potential implications if they didn't take their clothes off. The emphasis, to me, seems clear: these aren't gamers who're taking their tops off, they're girls who take their tops off playing games.Beautiful End said:I guess I've just had a bad experience with guys like this. Most nerds I've met (Including some friends of mine) are so unsuccessful with girls that they just focus on fantasy girls to the point that when a real girl comes their way, they let it go. I actually had a friend whose sole goal in life was to find a girl in this world that resembled Rei from Neon Genesis Evangelion. I doubt he ever stopped to think if he was looking for a good girl, someone he could relate to, someone he had something in common, and so on. No, he wanted Rei, the girl with the spandex suit and voluptuous figure. He wanted her to be his and that's it.
But I digress. I understand what you're saying and I agree. But...the simple replies that this topic is getting kinda make me change my mind.
I suppose I cannot judge the quality of that site until I watch a walkthrough or something. But personally, when I see naked people, I think they're desperate for attention and they're trying to overcompensate for their lack of...something, in this case, game knowledge. I support people like Lisa Foiles who is a well known and reputable gamer girl, someone who you can take seriously when she talks about games. But it wouldn't be the same if she was topless; *I* would feel uncomfortable, kinda the same way you would feel if...I don't know, Pierce Brosnan was whispering into your ear but he had horribly bad breath. And I think that's the problem everyone's having (I'm not acknowledging the immature replies like "OMFG SKANKZ! and such): girls SHOULD be taken seriously when it comes to playing video games; it's not like we're aliens. And yes, while these girls don't represent all girls in general, I cannot help but think they still represent gamer girls; those of us who are not public figures.
Right idea, wrong execution. Which makes me think of...
I had a friend similar to yours, by the way, but mine purchased a kitty suit for his ladyfriend...before he ever had a ladyfriend. He couldn't deal with the issues that prevented him from connecting with people, so he retreated to the safety of fantasy.
I imagine these ladies saw a potential market and decided to take advantage of it. I don't see the toplessness as a mark of desperation - after all, they're doing it to turn a buck, not to get you to like them or call them back. It's a business decision, a marketing ploy, plain and simple.
I certainly can differentiate between the two. But not all porn is produced by legitimate companies.Micalas said:The fact that you can't differentiate between human sex trafficking and legitimate companies shows that you really have no leg to stand on.
Why would you restrict the definition to only law-abiding businesses? That makes no sense. Consumers of porn aren't asking themselves whether the website they get their porn from abides by all legal statutes. The internet allows porn from all over the world, legal and illegal to be consumed easily. So, issues of pornography in our culture extend way beyond the "respectable" companies.Micalas said:The term "porn industry" as being used in this argument is refering to the people who follow US Code 2257 [http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002257----000-.html] (and similar laws abroad). You're being obtuse and talking about blatently illegal things that related to human trafficking. The fact that the unfortunately trafficked people are being used to make pornograph does not make them part of the "porn industry."
I can see the difference. But how does the existence of a legal porn industry make the issue go away? We don't get to pretend that these issues don't exist in porn. You know it happens. You know people consume it.Micalas said:As a person who works for the Department of Defense in conjunction with the Department of Homeland Security concerning human trafficking, I'm insulted that you can't see the difference between a person getting raped on camera for free and a person being consensually doing this while getting paid hand over fist . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornographic_actor#Pay_rates.
I'm pretty sure that absolute idiots are the target demographic for this venture. They are not in short supply in this world.Susan Arendt said:Nobody but an absolute idiot is going to think that because he saw a porn star getting paid to "pwn noobs with her boobs" that non-porn star girls are going to do the same thing.
And that's why it's so tacky. Why should we respect marketing gimmicks?Susan Arendt said:I imagine these ladies saw a potential market and decided to take advantage of it. I don't see the toplessness as a mark of desperation - after all, they're doing it to turn a buck, not to get you to like them or call them back. It's a business decision, a marketing ploy, plain and simple.
*chuckle...well, you may have a point there.Aardvaarkman said:I'm pretty sure that absolute idiots are the target demographic for this venture. They are not in short supply in this world.Susan Arendt said:Nobody but an absolute idiot is going to think that because he saw a porn star getting paid to "pwn noobs with her boobs" that non-porn star girls are going to do the same thing.