Pornstar Question

[stroopwafel]

I have nothing against porn in general but I do find many of it to be particularly demeaning and degrading towards women. It's like everyhting always has to be extreme. I also think in espescially younger people these types of pornography can promote unhealthy attitudes towards sex. Porn is not anything like the 'real' thing either. There is no excitement or tension. I find it more a parody than even remotely exciting.

I think there are also some seriously skewed cultural views(or espesially of the U.S. where most porn gets made) on sexuality that is represented by both overly moralist public opinion and distasteful pornography itself. The whole 'sex is evil' mantra is ingrained in both a sex industry with exploitative tendencies and a dominant cultural idea that every person working in said industry is either a victim of poverty or abuse or should otherwise be perpetually stigmatized.

Sex is a very powerful urge as obviously the preservation of our species and survival of social orders depends on it. But I always have the idea that many of the negative views on sexuality comes from the desire to fight that urge tooth and nail, as if it is somehow a demon to be contained. Rather than something beautiful about life that should be cherished and celebrated.

If cultural views become more accepting of our true nature and a sex industry(which is an outlet for many) becomes respectful towards women(preferably entirely run by them) then the two wouldn't antagonize as much. Women wouldn't be branded the victim, society wouldn't promote pent-up frustration and a sex industry wouldn't turn sex into something grotesque.

 

[Something Amyss]

$800 for a girl-girl scene

$1,000 for a guy-girl scene

$1,200 or more for anal sex

$4,000 or more for "double penetration"

"But for the select few females who make it to the top of the industry, paychecks can be "upward of $350,000 a year, while top male performers can make more than $100,000 annually."

That's 4k for a 15 minute take.

Let that sink in for a moment.

So you think what happens in porn happens in real time? Do you also think movies are shot in 90 minutes?

Also, you stated things but offered no source. Bad form.

 

[TekMoney]

8-9 hours of sex for a 15 min clip? I don't believe that at all. Especially considering the fact that most porn looks like it's been filmed by an amateur.

Even if it were true, 4k a DAY is still an insane amount.

Editing is a thing dude, multiple takes and shots are a thing. But to your second point, having sex for 8 hours a day every day is going to do some damage.

 

[Parasondox]

So you think what happens in porn happens in real time? Do you also think movies are shot in 90 minutes?

Also, you stated things but offered no source. Bad form.

This is not the gym, I could care less about form. Especially if it's the first thing that pops up on google when you type in "pornstar income".

They only want to know where you get your figures from because even if it's the "first thing" that pops up on Google when you searched it, it's not always 100% reliable. So really I think you should care when others ask for a source at least if you wish to past something off as fact.

Editing is a thing dude, multiple takes and shots are a thing. But to your second point, having sex for 8 hours a day every day is going to do some damage.

8 hours a day?

This is not LotR we're talking about.

Most porn looks like it's been filmed and edited by amateurs.

Give me a valid reason to believe pornstars have sex for 8 hours to make a 15 minute video.

Yes eight hours a day. It takes months to set up and film a 90 min movie so I kind of guess it would take an eight hour shoot to film a 15-30 min video. The editing comes into play, retakes, getting the different shots from different angles to sych in with the sound, filming at different angles, for that same scene.

You said it yourself, MOST porn looks like they are filmed and edited by amateurs because MOST are. Thats called Amateur Porn. If you are talking about a movie style porno, then do a bit more research into how it works and see it's not to different from movies you see everyday in the cinema, independent or high production.

 

[Stu35]

When pornstars lament their career choice, and suffer visible pain as a result, should viewers of porn feel any shame that they're consumers in an industry where a portion of the industry's employees feel such shame and spiritual pain?

Nope.

Lots of people hate their jobs. Despise their own choices, and generally feel like shit about life.

From the McDonalds worker to the Binman, should I stop buying McDonalds and putting out my bins because it perpetuates those two trades?


If I'm gonna stop eating McDonalds, its' because it's shit food, not because the employees have life a bit shit. Same goes for porn - If I'm going to stop it, it'll be because I shouldn't wank as much, not because people who work in it don't enjoy their jobs.



Now I've seen that a lot of this thread has devolved into what is a "good" analogy. I'd say that, on the basic level, my analogy makes sense.

Working in McDonalds is generally something done by young people with few to no qualifications, some people end up in Management, many more move on. Often the people working there are doing so simply because they've got bills to pay, and it appears that more and more of the people working there are Romanian.

I don't know how more apt that can get as an analogy of Porn. Except McDonalds recruits males(and pays them the same as the women) and (female) Pornstars earn considerably more than the average burger flipper.

 

[Callate]

8-9 hours of sex for a 15 min clip? I don't believe that at all. Especially considering the fact that most porn looks like it's been filmed by an amateur.

Even if it were true, 4k a DAY is still an insane amount.

Well, it probably isn't 8-9 hours of sex a day. But I suspect it is 8-9 hours of standing around while they adjust lights and cameras, changing costumes, changing positions, applying lubricants, doing whatever it takes to keep an erection (or waiting for your fellow performer to do the same), checking takes and waiting to see if a re-shoot is necessary, etc., etc. But even three or four hours of sex is a lot for most people.

It's also worth noting that 4k is a lot if you think of it in terms of a forty hour week. Much less so if you only work once a month. And then there's recovery time, STD checks, cosmetic surgery and regular visits to a gym so you keep looking like some kind of ridiculous sex fantasy, looking for the next job, self-promotion... A lot of "work" that the performer isn't actually paid for, or has to put money into.

All for a job which most people probably aren't going to be able to do for more than a decade at most, a reputation which may follow them long after, and all the complications in one's personal life.

I wouldn't want to be in porn.

 

[mitchell271]

Yeah well...If you've ever been on Efukt(google it yourself), there are quite a few breakdown video clips.

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
Why would you tell anyone to go there? WHYYYYYYYYYYYY

*ahem*
As a guy that doesn't watch porn anymore (my fantasies are way better), I don't have a great opinion on this that hasn't already been said. If she chose that path, then the blame is ultimately on her. If she's forced to do things, then it's a different story.

 

[spartan231490]

No. They chose that career path because they were too good to flip burgers like the rest of us with no options. 100% their fault. Taking responsibility for the actions of others is never a good thing, it diminishes the value of their own choices and demeans them.

 

[generals3]

Interesting question. I'm leaning towards the response that if the pornstar willingly gave their consent, without any coercion or lack of other options, then they're responsible for their own career choice and any negative consequences that may come of it.

It becomes greyer though if they chose that option to avoid otherwise crushing poverty, similar to Fantine's choice to become a prostitute in Les Miserables to keep her young daughter from starvation, in that case arguably the consumers hold some responsibility. But then again, if those consumers didn't exist then she might have no options at-all and have died much earlier... it's complicated.

I have a question though. Why does that person's lack of real choice make the consumer more responsible? From the consumers PoV nothing changed and how is a consumer even supposed to know pornstar X was coerced?

 

[Gorrath]

Like all subjects, let me throw all my cards on the table so hard I'm likely to sprain something. A lot of pornstars an porn industry workers have it bad. Even if you think it's only a few, or a small percentage, or whatever, we can at least agree that conditions could be better, right? So with that in mind, instead of arguing whether porn consumers do or do not have culpability, lets see if we can make the industry better! How do we do this? We stop demonizing sex, the sex trade and intimacy outside of marriage. We've come some way in this, but still, there's a ton of work to be done in the U.S.

Instead of pornstars being looked down on, they could be treated like actual stars. A lot of the problems in the porn industry are problems that used to exist in the mainstream movie industry. The power that studios had over actors was too lopsided and it was rare that an actor could negotiate on an even footing. Sound familiar? So how did the movie industry change? Stars became so popular, so sought after, that studios had to fight over them, offering them better and better deals. Consumers empowered actors by making them popular icons. The same could happen in porn, if we were to throw off sexual shame and empower pornstars the same way.

As with all exploitative industries, simply refusing to buy anything in that industry probably won't help. You don't take an abused worker and make their life better by throwing the industry they work in out the window. In a lot of cases, it isn't that the alternative to a bad job is a good job, it's that the alternative to a bad job is no job.

In short, support your local pornstar!

 

[DudeistBelieve]

When pornstars lament their career choice, and suffer visible pain as a result, should viewers of porn feel any shame that they're consumers in an industry where a portion of the industry's employees feel such shame and spiritual pain? Even if the pain is brought upon themselves where no one forced the pornstars to choose the path they chose? Does the viewer bear any responsibility whatsoever for the pornstar's pain?

G-rated Shock Value
"No bad words. Just bad ideas."

While in my heart I still mourn the loss of Julie Ellis,

most Pornstars, I've heard are like Katie Morgan. They're not damaged/upset/unhappy at all. Why would they be? They're in an industry were they get paid to fuck.

Think BaileyJay/Linetrap is unhappy with her life? ***** owns a home and has a husband because of it (I believe anyway)

 

[Vegosiux]

Instead of pornstars being looked down on, they could be treated like actual stars.

I'd prefer they'd just be treated like, you know, people. The last thing we need is more pedestals all over the place. I'd rather tear down the existing ones than add new ones.

 

[Gorrath]

Instead of pornstars being looked down on, they could be treated like actual stars.

I'd prefer they'd just be treated like, you know, people. The last thing we need is more pedestals all over the place. I'd rather tear down the existing ones than add new ones.

I realize that there is some negative connotation with the way stars are thought of, but by "star" I mean someone who is lauded for their good, compelling work and therefor is respected in their field. I don't see why we can't do that with pornstars like we do with so many other fields. I consider Lawrence Krauss to be a star, for instance, and he has earned that level of admiration and respect.

 

[JoJo]

Interesting question. I'm leaning towards the response that if the pornstar willingly gave their consent, without any coercion or lack of other options, then they're responsible for their own career choice and any negative consequences that may come of it.

It becomes greyer though if they chose that option to avoid otherwise crushing poverty, similar to Fantine's choice to become a prostitute in Les Miserables to keep her young daughter from starvation, in that case arguably the consumers hold some responsibility. But then again, if those consumers didn't exist then she might have no options at-all and have died much earlier... it's complicated.

Most people here seem to be responding to the perceived morality of porn itself, but I want to address the points you made directly.

I work at UPS, it is a no-education required job that is often a last resort for people who take it, myself included. I don't know anyone who is proud to work at UPS or who (if they've been there for less than a few years) wouldn't dump it for something else given the opportunity. Many people who work with me admit to avoiding the subject of where they work with their friends because they feel a certain sense of shame over the choices that brought them there. Physical injury is also a common problem with UPS, you will rarely find a person who has been there for more than 5 years who does not suffer from one form of chronic pain disorder or another.

All of this being the case, should you feel shame for shipping your products?

Hm, interesting point. I suppose it depends on whether injury and poor working conditions are an unavoidable consequence of shipping, or whether it's down to UPS's poor business practices. If it's the former then perhaps in an ideal world we should feel some shame, though in reality most of us accept exploitative products made in third world countries as a fact of life, let alone first world jobs which are on the less pleasant side. If it's the latter, then still some of the blame lies on the consumer for using an exploitative company but I'd say the lion's share of the blame lands of the company themselves. Well, them and the politicians who don't pass strict enough laws to protect working people

I have a question though. Why does that person's lack of real choice make the consumer more responsible? From the consumers PoV nothing changed and how is a consumer even supposed to know pornstar X was coerced?

Arguably, if an industry is based on exploitation then by consuming their product you are supporting that exploitation as the product wouldn't exist if there was no demand for it. Therefore, if a significant percentage of porn stars were coerced or forced into the business, then the consumers could be considered partly responsible for their plight. Obviously you wouldn't be able to know whether any particular porn star had been forced or not. This is all hypothetical though, I have no idea what percentage of porn stars are forced into the business and no real interest to find out, since I'm not a regular consumer of porn.

 

[Korolev]

No one can deny that the view doesn't have a role to play in the porn industry. If there weren't any viewers, there wouldn't be a porn industry, it's as simple as that.

Is porn harmful? I'd argue in its current form it is probably harmful. But... like with prostitution, it's not something that is going to go away. Countries have tried to ban pornography, but it always gets created. There's neolithic cave paintings featuring naked bodies, and when cameras were first invented it wasn't long before people started filming naked bodies (there was porn in the silent era of film, you know). Humans like looking a naked bodies and they get aroused by seeing other people go at it, and that's something that is VERY unlikely to change unless you can burn out certain sections of human brains with a hot wire. We like to watch it. I know many people on the Left don't like Porn and don't like the social implications of porn, but please realize that it's probably never going to go away. Leftists are so sensible when it comes to drugs and the legalization of marijuana - why can't you realize that it's exactly the same with Porn? You can't legalize it away or ever get rid of it, just like Prostitution.

I think the pornography industry is bad. I don't think you'll ever destroy it. The best we can do is help make it a better career for those who get into it (and believe me, some will always get into it. You can't stop everyone). Help get them unions, health-checks and help to avoid abusive employers. It's a terrible industry, but we can make it less terrible.

 

[Vigormortis]

...spiritual pain...

Tell you what: you explain to me just what in the hell that is and what it means[footnote]Or what "spiritual" even means as it seems a pointless, vague word with no real-world meaning.[/footnote] and I'll answer your questions.

Deal?

 

[Aramis Night]

I've been with women who were sex workers in the past, including a girl who went on to porn and known a few others. After my last ex, I've sworn myself off former sex workers entirely. I'm probably going to catch a lot of flack for this on this forum but my own experiences have left me with the impression that well adjusted women in that field are not typical. A few may exist, but my personal experience hasn't really born that out so much. I'm less inclined to believe that the industry itself really does much overall harm to the girls in it, at least as far as present day is concerned. Women seem more than happy these days to seek out such opportunities on their own and don't need to be coerced. As a result it seems that it is a certain type of woman who tends to work within that industry, and they often tend to have their own issues going in. Let's just say, not relationship material.

Now i don't think any of this is reason to think poorly of women who work in these industries. But i understand that to most people intimacy is an expression of loyalty among other things. So when someone see's that someone else is willing to give intimacy in exchange for money, it does leave people with an idea about how much loyalty they can expect. That tends to make people uncomfortable with giving them any opportunity that would involve trust. An employer for example who would consider giving a former porn actress a cash handling job may decline, based on the notion that if this person is willing to have sex with strangers for money, then they would likely be willing to just take my money from me since most people would find sex with strangers and stealing to both be repugnant activities(assuming you don't get to pick the strangers as is the case typically with porn). Stealing by comparison would even seem less repugnant to most people.

Now of course some may argue that sex and intimacy are not the same, except for that for many people, it is the same. One is just seen as the physical manifestation of the other. It is why we feel hurt when cheated on. Being cheated on is a acknowledgment that the person being cheated on is no longer the single most important person to the cheater. The intimacy that was once shared between 2 people is now being dishonestly given away to a 3rd(or 4th, 5th, 6th, etc.) party and as with any resource is now of less value, the more their is. The most important thing to someone is now being diluted and treated as though it is of less value despite the complete emotional investment of one party which reflects on their emotional self worth which was tied up in the value of their shared intimacy. And this is of course outside the dishonesty factor of cheating.

 

[SaberXIII]

Of course not, that's like a baker burning his hand on an oven and blaming people who buy bread...

 

[theboombody]

...spiritual pain...

Tell you what: you explain to me just what in the hell that is and what it means[footnote]Or what "spiritual" even means as it seems a pointless, vague word with no real-world meaning.[/footnote] and I'll answer your questions.

Deal?

Rather than leaving me to explain stuff I don't know much about, why don't I just show an example, and let you explain from there. The death of a loved one is an example of spiritual pain. If you look strictly at physics and biology, such an event should not cause pain at all.

 

[Redingold]

...spiritual pain...

Tell you what: you explain to me just what in the hell that is and what it means[footnote]Or what "spiritual" even means as it seems a pointless, vague word with no real-world meaning.[/footnote] and I'll answer your questions.

Deal?

Rather than leaving me to explain stuff I don't know much about, why don't I just show an example, and let you explain from there. The death of a loved one is an example of spiritual pain. If you look strictly at physics and biology, such an event should not cause pain at all.

Well, see, that's just not true. It's well-established that emotional pain is a real, neurological thing. It's been shown that areas of the brain associated with physical pain are also active when emotional or social loss occurs.

http://www.sozialpsychologie.uni-frankfurt.de/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/MacDonald-Leary-20051.pdf
http://www.scn.ucla.edu/pdf/WhyRejectionHurts(TICS).pdf

Neurologically, pain caused by loss or rejection is much the same as pain caused by physical damage.