Pornstar Question

[Vigormortis]

...spiritual pain...

Tell you what: you explain to me just what in the hell that is and what it means[footnote]Or what "spiritual" even means as it seems a pointless, vague word with no real-world meaning.[/footnote] and I'll answer your questions.

Deal?

 

[Aramis Night]

I've been with women who were sex workers in the past, including a girl who went on to porn and known a few others. After my last ex, I've sworn myself off former sex workers entirely. I'm probably going to catch a lot of flack for this on this forum but my own experiences have left me with the impression that well adjusted women in that field are not typical. A few may exist, but my personal experience hasn't really born that out so much. I'm less inclined to believe that the industry itself really does much overall harm to the girls in it, at least as far as present day is concerned. Women seem more than happy these days to seek out such opportunities on their own and don't need to be coerced. As a result it seems that it is a certain type of woman who tends to work within that industry, and they often tend to have their own issues going in. Let's just say, not relationship material.

Now i don't think any of this is reason to think poorly of women who work in these industries. But i understand that to most people intimacy is an expression of loyalty among other things. So when someone see's that someone else is willing to give intimacy in exchange for money, it does leave people with an idea about how much loyalty they can expect. That tends to make people uncomfortable with giving them any opportunity that would involve trust. An employer for example who would consider giving a former porn actress a cash handling job may decline, based on the notion that if this person is willing to have sex with strangers for money, then they would likely be willing to just take my money from me since most people would find sex with strangers and stealing to both be repugnant activities(assuming you don't get to pick the strangers as is the case typically with porn). Stealing by comparison would even seem less repugnant to most people.

Now of course some may argue that sex and intimacy are not the same, except for that for many people, it is the same. One is just seen as the physical manifestation of the other. It is why we feel hurt when cheated on. Being cheated on is a acknowledgment that the person being cheated on is no longer the single most important person to the cheater. The intimacy that was once shared between 2 people is now being dishonestly given away to a 3rd(or 4th, 5th, 6th, etc.) party and as with any resource is now of less value, the more their is. The most important thing to someone is now being diluted and treated as though it is of less value despite the complete emotional investment of one party which reflects on their emotional self worth which was tied up in the value of their shared intimacy. And this is of course outside the dishonesty factor of cheating.

 

[SaberXIII]

Of course not, that's like a baker burning his hand on an oven and blaming people who buy bread...

 

[theboombody]

...spiritual pain...

Tell you what: you explain to me just what in the hell that is and what it means[footnote]Or what "spiritual" even means as it seems a pointless, vague word with no real-world meaning.[/footnote] and I'll answer your questions.

Deal?

Rather than leaving me to explain stuff I don't know much about, why don't I just show an example, and let you explain from there. The death of a loved one is an example of spiritual pain. If you look strictly at physics and biology, such an event should not cause pain at all.

 

[Redingold]

...spiritual pain...

Tell you what: you explain to me just what in the hell that is and what it means[footnote]Or what "spiritual" even means as it seems a pointless, vague word with no real-world meaning.[/footnote] and I'll answer your questions.

Deal?

Rather than leaving me to explain stuff I don't know much about, why don't I just show an example, and let you explain from there. The death of a loved one is an example of spiritual pain. If you look strictly at physics and biology, such an event should not cause pain at all.

Well, see, that's just not true. It's well-established that emotional pain is a real, neurological thing. It's been shown that areas of the brain associated with physical pain are also active when emotional or social loss occurs.

http://www.sozialpsychologie.uni-frankfurt.de/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/MacDonald-Leary-20051.pdf
http://www.scn.ucla.edu/pdf/WhyRejectionHurts(TICS).pdf

Neurologically, pain caused by loss or rejection is much the same as pain caused by physical damage.

 

[synobal]

You could just as easily argue that it's society's bilious, condemnatory attitude towards "promiscuity" that creates the "shame and spiritual pain" porn stars eventually seem destined to endure, as well as trapping them in the career due to a lack of other options.

Thank you, for all the porn stars out there that have break downs etc etc there are plenty that don't. It trivializes women when you act like they shouldn't bear the responsibility for their own decisions. Sometimes it is just a simple mistake they think they would like porn and it turns out they don't. Other times it's because their porn career doesn't turn out as big as they planned. Not everyone can be the next Stoya, or Asa Akira.

Sometimes society fails these women before they decide to do porn by making it seem like sex is the only way they can hope to earn a decent living but that is society and not the porn industry or consumers fault.

Also I agree spiritual pain is retarded, lets talk about real feelings or something semi tangible. Is spiritual pain not having a relationship with jesus? because I know people who say I have spiritual pain because I'm an Atheist.

 

[theboombody]

Also I agree spiritual pain is retarded, lets talk about real feelings or something semi tangible. Is spiritual pain not having a relationship with jesus? because I know people who say I have spiritual pain because I'm an Atheist.

Spiritual pain is the same as emotional pain. The world of non-objectivity is the world of spirituality and feelings. If you're hurting, and it's for an emotional reason and not because someone is physically harming you, that's spiritual pain. It's the ghost in the machine.

 

[synobal]

Also I agree spiritual pain is retarded, lets talk about real feelings or something semi tangible. Is spiritual pain not having a relationship with jesus? because I know people who say I have spiritual pain because I'm an Atheist.

Spiritual pain is the same as emotional pain. The world of non-objectivity is the world of spirituality and feelings. If you're hurting, and it's for an emotional reason and not because someone is physically harming you, that's spiritual pain. It's the ghost in the machine.

As an atheist I disagree, spirituality is not the same as emotion, to confuse mysticism with feelings is bad. I had to get in a serious argument with my fitness teach once because she said people who are spiritually fit and have religion are healthier than those who are not spiritual. It took 10 minutes but she finally admitted that no spiritual well being is not synonymous with emotional well being.

 

[Vigormortis]

Rather than leaving me to explain stuff I don't know much about, why don't I just show an example, and let you explain from there. The death of a loved one is an example of spiritual pain. If you look strictly at physics and biology, such an event should not cause pain at all.

You do realize that assertion is complete bullshit, right? Most biologists and physicists would disagree with what you're saying. Also, you don't say, "I can't explain" and follow that up with, "Here's an example." That's redirecting and avoiding. Not to mention completely irrational. How can you provide an example if you say you don't really know what it is?

For that matter, are you're asserting that the feeling of pain and loss associated with the loss of a loved one is somehow "supernatural" and exempt from the confines that every other emotional response exists within?

Regardless, you've still not explained, or really even provided a quantifiable example of, what "spritual" means.

I patiently await an answer as I would genuinely like to discuss this topic.

[edit]

Spiritual pain is the same as emotional pain. The world of non-objectivity is the world of spirituality and feelings. If you're hurting, and it's for an emotional reason and not because someone is physically harming you, that's spiritual pain. It's the ghost in the machine.

Wait, what?

I scarcely know which fallacy to address first.

I'm not saying that to be mean, it's just...there are so many things wrong with those claims.

 

[lylemcd]

Fine, do women with few other options often get 'forced' into porn by economic necessity? Perhaps. I've certainly known my share of strippers and sex workers for whom few other options existed.

And you don't see this as being a problem?

Inasmuch as I can't fix society or the socioeconomic reality of any of it, why does it matter whether or not I see it as a problem? It is what it is and it's not going to change so I'm not going to spend existential energy asking 'what ifs'. Yeah, I wish it were different, I wish some people didn't grow up with no other choices than sex work (which I also have zero problem with). I also want a flying puppydog who poops gold while we're in fantasy land.

Everyone has to get through life and survive one way or another and if your choice is starve or put your hotness to work then get out there and shake that ass....

Adding, if you want to gnash and grind teeth over 'a problem', let's talk about how that same socioeconomic situation causes so many minority males to join the military where they can get shipped overseas to get blown up so some rich white men (who would never put themselves at risk) can keep their oil income going. Because I see that as a way bigger problem than any aspect of the sex industry (which is basically a victimless (non)crime or would be if they would just legalize prostitution and let it be regulated correctly).

Hell, knowing the background of most of the girls who go into that work in the first place, they'd be out sleeping with anything that moves anyhow. And as the pimps like to so gently put it "What you got between your legs is valuable, honey. Better to get paid for it than to give it up for free."

I'm sure you'll have a field day with that one. Have fun.

 

[JoJo]

...spiritual pain...

Tell you what: you explain to me just what in the hell that is and what it means[small]Or what "spiritual" even means as it seems a pointless, vague word with no real-world meaning.[/small] and I'll answer your questions.

Deal?

Rather than leaving me to explain stuff I don't know much about, why don't I just show an example, and let you explain from there. The death of a loved one is an example of spiritual pain. If you look strictly at physics and biology, such an event should not cause pain at all.

Actually, emotional pain is easily explainable by physics and biology. All pain is just a certain pattern of neurons in the brain firing in response to an external stimulus, so it makes sense that the stimuli doesn't have to be a physical injury. As for why you experience pain when a loved one dies, biology has that. Humans are social animals, we depend on being in a group for long-term survival. Hence people within our group dying, and especially family who share a large proportion of our genes, lowers our own survival prospects and thus our species has adapted over time to feel pain when someone we know and like dies, to encourage us to avoid deaths whenever possible.

 

[Flutterguy]

Being a determinist I realize their life experience lead them to that decision and i feel sorry for them. Traumas like broken homes, abusive parents, molestation and such leads to self-destructive habits. Self-destruction requires money. Money requires you work, steal or sell something. They cannot work in their mental state, they do not wish to steal, so they sell the only commodity they have.

It is not so simple as saying they 'chose' this path.

That being said, I don't 'kill the mood' focusing on it.

 

[Directionless]

But it's not the porn consumers that create the environment of "shame and spiritual pain" it's the non porn consumers. They're the one's who are culpable.

I don't really see why that's relevant. It exists, they're aware of it, therefore they bear some slight culpability.

I never suggested it should be keeping anyone up at night.

Collective responsibility? Uh-uh, not on my watch sir.

 

[theboombody]

You do realize that assertion is complete bullshit, right? Most biologists and physicists would disagree with what you're saying. Also, you don't say, "I can't explain" and follow that up with, "Here's an example." That's redirecting and avoiding. Not to mention completely irrational. How can you provide an example if you say you don't really know what it is?

Why should I care what biologists and physicists agree with? What are they striving for? In a billion years they're going to be dust, their children are going to be dust, and their ideas are going to be dust. Same goes with me, my children, and my ideas. I am exactly equivalent to them when you look at the big picture. Therefore I respect their opinions no more than I respect my own.

All progress is in vain. That's why I've chosen the path of anarchistic nihilism. As long as I comply with the forum's rules, I can think whatever way I want to think without having any reason for it whatsoever. People can disagree, but any logical disagreement on their part has no more ultimate value than my insane ramblings. Temporary beauty is no match for ultimate ugliness.

 

[theboombody]

Actually, emotional pain is easily explainable by physics and biology. All pain is just a certain pattern of neurons in the brain firing in response to an external stimulus, so it makes sense that the stimuli doesn't have to be a physical injury. As for why you experience pain when a loved one dies, biology has that. Humans are social animals, we depend on being in a group for long-term survival. Hence people within our group dying, and especially family who share a large proportion of our genes, lowers our own survival prospects and thus our species has adapted over time to feel pain when someone we know and like dies, to encourage us to avoid deaths whenever possible.

So everything spiritual and everything physical has its only goal as being survival of the individual and/or the species. That's the ultimate answer. Why do living things strive to survive though? Why has DNA evolved the way it has to promote survival? What difference does it make if every planet in the universe is lifeless or if some planets have life? Scientifically, absolutely no difference. Philosophically, there's a lot. Do you want philosophy to pick up where science ends, or do you just want to leave the non-scientific questions unexamined?

 

[Vigormortis]

Why should I care what biologists and physicists agree with? What are they striving for? In a billion years they're going to be dust, their children are going to be dust, and their ideas are going to be dust. Same goes with me, my children, and my ideas. I am exactly equivalent to them when you look at the big picture. Therefore I respect their opinions no more than I respect my own.

All progress is in vain. That's why I've chosen the path of anarchistic nihilism. As long as I comply with the forum's rules, I can think whatever way I want to think without having any reason for it whatsoever. People can disagree, but any logical disagreement on their part has no more ultimate value than my insane ramblings. Temporary beauty is no match for ultimate ugliness.

Wow. How very...dismissive and pessimistic of you. If that's genuinely how you feel then there is literally no point in attempting to converse with you. You've already made up your mind. You've already decided to tell everyone what they should think and refuse to listen to any dissenting opinions. I see no reason to continue with the conversation.

Though, before I end this conversation, I can't help but point out the utterly ridiculous irony of your post.

If "everything is dust" and everything is meaningless why waste your incredibly finite time starting threads online asking for others opinions on a topic? (or rather, proselytizing your own views under a thin veil of asking for others opinions) For that matter, why even bother responding to comments and replies to your thread? Isn't that effort pointless in the end? I mean, from your point of view, what's the point of anything?

Look, you've every right to ignore the truth, to ignore science, and to believe in whatever thing you want to make up. That's fine. You're more than welcome to do so and I'll even defend that right should someone want to take that right from you.

However, I like to live in the real world. I like to live my life based on truth. And yes, I'm well aware of the predicted fate of the universe; with the heat death being the more prominent currently. However, I don't take that to mean that everything is pointless. I don't take that to mean we're all irrelevant. Quite the opposite. I take it to mean that it's all more important. It means everyday should be cherished, that everything and every moment should be appreciated in some form or another, as we'll never see those moments again.

You're welcome to live in the dark. I prefer the light.

[sub]And consequently...you've still not defined what "spiritual" means.[/sub]

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Wow. How very...dismissive and pessimistic of you. If that's genuinely how you feel then there is literally no point in attempting to converse with you. You've already made up your mind. You've already decided to tell everyone what they should think and refuse to listen to any dissenting opinions. I see no reason to continue with the conversation.

Though, before I end this conversation and add you to my ignore list, I can't help but point out the utterly ridiculous irony of your post.

If "everything is dust" and everything is meaningless why waste your incredibly finite time starting threads online asking for others opinions on a topic? (or rather, proselytizing your own views under a thin veil of asking for others opinions) For that matter, why even bother responding to comments and replies to your thread? Isn't that effort pointless in the end? I mean, from your point of view, what's the point of anything?

Look, you've every right to ignore the truth, to ignore science, and to believe in whatever thing you want to make up. That's fine. You're more than welcome to do so and I'll even defend that right should someone want to take that right from you.

However, I like to live in the real world. I like to live my life based on truth. And yes, I'm well aware of the predicted fate of the universe; with the heat death being the more prominent currently. However, I don't take that to mean that everything is pointless. I don't take that to mean we're all irrelevant. Quite the opposite. I take it to mean that it's all more important. It means everyday should be cherished, that everything and every moment should be appreciated in some form or another, as we'll never see those moments again.

You're welcome to live in the dark. I prefer the light.

[sub]And consequently...you've still not defined what "spiritual" means.[/sub]

Ehhh...I may be wrong, but I didn't read his posts quite the way you have (although I did pause for a chuckle at "anarchistic nihilism"). I think the point of "everything is pointless, everything ultimately ends" isn't necessarily "why care", but "you make your own meaning". I think that's ultimately what "spirituality" is. I think it's mankind's attempts to create meaning and cope with concepts that rationality does not provide tools for.

As for the "real world" and "truth", let's remember what we believed "scientifically" even a short 100 years ago. It would be the height of stupidity to believe that scientific knowledge had peaked and that we'd figured it all out. Another hundred years from now we might look like comical savages hiding from angry sun gods and worshipping toadstools. Science is great stuff, and I love it, but it's hardly "The Truth".

 

[Vigormortis]

Ehhh...I may be wrong, but I didn't read his posts quite the way you have (although I did pause for a chuckle at "anarchistic nihilism"). I think the point of "everything is pointless, everything ultimately ends" isn't necessarily "why care", but "you make your own meaning". I think that's ultimately what "spirituality" is. I think it's mankind's attempts to create meaning and cope with concepts that rationality does not provide tools for.

Which is why I called the OP out on it.

It's incredibly irrational to basically say, "I don't know what this is/means, so I'm going to make something up and accept that as the truth."

As for the "real world" and "truth", let's remember what we believed "scientifically" even a short 100 years ago. It would be the height of stupidity to believe that scientific knowledge had peaked and that we'd figured it all out.

I never said it did. In fact, in a previous post just a few days ago, I made a point of saying science doesn't have all the answers. As Dara O'Briain said, "If science knew everything, it would stop."

Another hundred years from now we might look like comical savages hiding from angry sun gods and worshipping toadstools. Science is great stuff, and I love it, but it's hardly "The Truth".

But it is. Science is the truth. Or rather, it is our current understanding of the truth based on quantifiable evidence.

If new evidence comes along, science adapts and we change our understanding of the truth.

The physical laws of the universe don't change. Our understanding of them does.

That's the difference.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

But it is. Science is the truth. Or rather, it is our current understanding of the truth based on quantifiable evidence.

If new evidence comes along, science adapts and we change our understanding of the truth.

The physical laws of the universe don't change. Our understanding of them does.

That's the difference.

Fair enough. I just find words like "truth" to sound terribly self-assured. Ideologues talk about "the truth". What you're describing sounds more like "My best understanding of how things work based on available evidence, which is naturally pretty flawed and subject to change at any moment".

 

[Vigormortis]

Fair enough. I just find words like "truth" to sound terribly self-assured. Ideologues talk about "the truth". What you're describing sounds more like "My best understanding of how things work based on available evidence, which is naturally pretty flawed and subject to change at any moment".

Exactly. To me, the "truth" is what the universe is. There's no subjectivity to it.

However, our understanding of it is often tainted by subjectivity. The only way to remove that subjectivity is to keep searching for evidence and adapt our understanding of it.

Science is a process, not a conclusion.

And I agree, truth can be a very weighted word. But for me, when I use a word, I tend to use it in the literal sense, not the ideological sense.

Something that got me into a bit of a heated discussion on here, recently...