Power levels of characters and their inherent unimportance

[Roboshi]

Well Batman v Superman has come and is slowly on it's way out so I'm sure we've all seen at least 3 or 4 jokes about how short a god fighting a man would really be, and I've always looked back at this joke along with those old childhood arguments about how powerful your character really is.

You still see this in internet culture all the time as youtube probably has a few trillion lists of "most powerful X character" or "Would Y win against Z?". Of course this is often just silly fun and us nerds will always have fun thinking up mashps and their consequences. But I have noticed one slightly annoying thing pop up once in a while;

"X could just walk in and kill anyone in this world"

X in this case has often been the superduper powerful characters in media, like Goku, Superman or the Hulk and I'll be honest I don't see the point in this statement. I mean I could write a character right now that could literally beat up anything, but it wouldn't matter. "superhulkatron" or whatever he'd be called may be able to destroy the multiverse with an errant fart but the entire point of a story is to have some suspense, uncertainty and genuine tension in a story.
When you come to a discussion with a character that has a few extra 0's after their maximum speed/biggest weight they can lift/power level this should be the start, not the end of the discussion.

TLR the fight between batman and superman was never fought with fists and kryptonite, it was fought with comics sold and the the level of enjoyment you got from each character.

Honestly I don't know if this is a topic or a rant, but in the name of having an actual topic of discussion how about some mashups you'd like to see with the emphasis on making the fight dramatic and a close match for each other?

 

[DefunctTheory]

TLR the fight between batman and superman was never fought with fists and kryptonite, it was fought with comics sold and the the level of enjoyment you got from each character.

You've just described every single thing every put into a comic book, ever.

Except for Wonder Woman's books. Apparently, you couldn't sell those if they came with a free hand job and a real life replica of Power Girl's breast, so I'm sure they've thrown some non-selling point stuff in there just for the hell of it.

 

[Zhukov]

Are we talking crossover fights between characters from totally difference properties/universes or between characters from the same setting/story?

If the former, then yes, it's pointless and silly. They're different universes with different rules and scales. Although if that's where people find their fun then more power to 'em I guess.

If the latter, then, well... okay, it's probably still pointless and silly since we're talking about fictional characters who can do whatever the writer says they can do. However there is a general expectation for stories and characters to have internal consistency. So if you establish that a character can do X, Y and Z then have them get beaten in a fight where doing X, Y and Z would have turned the tide, you're inevitably going to have people pointing out that so-and-so could have done X, Y and Z, like he did in issue #1072.

 

[Zhukov]

Except for Wonder Woman's books. Apparently, you couldn't sell those if they came with a free hand job and a real life replica of Power Girl's breast, so I'm sure they've thrown some non-selling point stuff in there just for the hell of it.

Someone showed me a recent issue of some kind of Wonder Woman comic... reboot... origin... thing.

It was pretty whacky. Like the authors had decided to just do whatever the fuck they wanted.

There was so much stuff that would have rustled a lot of jimmies on all sides, if anyone were to actually read it.

 

[Fox12]

Yeeah, I'm really sick of power levels.

Me and my friends used to argue about this all the time. "Could sephiroth kill Kefka? Could Batman beat Superman?" Then I met an old highschool friend, and he started bringing it up, and I realized that I just didn't care.

Could Superman beat Batman? Sure. Probably. But that doesn't make him a more interesting character. He could probably beat the shit out of Atticus Finch, too. I basically ended up making the point that I could draw a stick figure man on a piece of paper, call him stick man, and declare that he was stronger then superman. And I would be right. But would anyone care about stick man? Not unless he had a really interesting personality to back him up. The whole argument is ridiculous.

Incidentally, someone actually did this:

Spoiler

 

[Ryallen]

I specifically remember a thread on here a while ago about two people fighting over the victor in a fight between Harry Potter and Vegeta. This is a really stupid and irrelevant question that, for some reason, people got really heated up over. Some people said Vegeta because he can literally destroy planets with little effort and others said Harry Potter because he knew Avada Kedavra. Of course, other reasons were mentioned, but those were the two main ones. I was reading through the replies and someone, I can't remember who, said that the question was no longer who would win in a fight, but rather how much can we stack the deck to make it a fight. This really hit home for me and solidified my opinion that these arguments are really really stupid. There are far too many variables to consider for each fight in a realistic sense, but in reality the person that wins is the person who is the most popular. Whoever is the character that people like more will be the victor, and once I realized that, I stopped caring about this sort of thing. Anyone can beat anyone should the writer will it, and no matter how clever it is, it will happen whether we want it to or not. One of my biggest pet peeves with this idea is when the main character is trying to prevent the villain from achieving some kind of ultra powerful form because then they will be unstoppable, they then achieve that form, and are subsequently beaten to a pulp. A state of power previously considered to be all mighty and unbeatable beaten within one ingame fight. It's complete bullshit and we all know it, yet it happens because the writer wanted it to. No amount of research or logic will ever change who the author or the audience wants to win. And that bothers me.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Incidentally, someone actually did this:

Spoiler

Hilariously, the whole point of One Punch Man seems to be to poke fun at the Over Powered Super Hero (And whatever the Japanese equivalent is). And what happens as soon as it get's popular? Everyone went straight to 'Who would win, Superman or One Punch Man.'

How foolish we are.

Also, Kefka would totally ruin Sephiroth.

Spoiler

Except for Wonder Woman's books. Apparently, you couldn't sell those if they came with a free hand job and a real life replica of Power Girl's breast, so I'm sure they've thrown some non-selling point stuff in there just for the hell of it.

Someone showed me a recent issue of some kind of Wonder Woman comic... reboot... origin... thing.

It was pretty whacky. Like the authors had decided to just do whatever the fuck they wanted.

There was so much stuff that would have rustled a lot of jimmies on all sides, if anyone were to actually read it.

Yeah, I read a bit of one. It was really weird.

 

[DefunctTheory]

I specifically remember a thread on here a while ago about two people fighting over the victor in a fight between Harry Potter and Vegeta. This is a really stupid and irrelevant question that, for some reason, people got really heated up over. Some people said Vegeta because he can literally destroy planets with little effort and others said Harry Potter because he knew Avada Kedavra. Of course, other reasons were mentioned, but those were the two main ones. I was reading through the replies and someone, I can't remember who, said that the question was no longer who would win in a fight, but rather how much can we stack the deck to make it a fight.

I remember that thread. I got really pissy right from the get go, said it was basically the same argument as Batman (Harry Potter) vs. Superman (Vegeta), and I think I managed to call someone a moron without getting modded.

Oh, here it is.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.876151-Poll-Who-would-win-in-a-fight-Harry-Potter-or-Vegeta

And with that, you've turned it into the classic 'Who would win, Batman or Superman' argument, Harry Potter being Batman, Vegeta being Superman.

Classy. And redundant.

So Harry wins if he has the time to prep (As would Batman) and Vegeta wins hands down, no contest if its an unplanned encounter (As would Superman).

There. Two plus decades of arguments condensed into one sentence. Thank god its over now.

You're welcome.

I also got real pissy with FalloutJack, which he didn't deserve, then made an argument that Dora the Explorer would beat The Punisher in a fight. I guess it wasn't too bad of thread.

 

[Fox12]

Incidentally, someone actually did this:

Spoiler

Hilariously, the whole point of One Punch Man seems to be to poke fun at the Over Powered Super Hero (And whatever the Japanese equivalent is). And what happens as soon as it get's popular? Everyone went straight to 'Who would win, Superman or One Punch Man.'

How foolish we are.

Apparently the writers of One Punch Man and Superman have both declared that their character's powers are infinite. The different is that one was self aware and joking, and the other one was completely serious.

Also, Kefka would totally ruin Sephiroth.

Maybe, but nobody can deny that Sephiroth has style.

Spoiler

And those abbs!

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

I specifically remember a thread on here a while ago about two people fighting over the victor in a fight between Harry Potter and Vegeta.

Just tell them Harry would win because Vegeta is obligated to talk for half an hour, and scream for 10 minutes before he is allowed to fight. That's 40 minutes Harry has to do whatever he wants.

OT; I don't think we will ever be past these power level/dick measuring contests. As long as there is a fanboy, they will defend to the death why their Chosen One can defeat someone else Chosen One.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

Incidentally, someone actually did this:

Spoiler

Hilariously, the whole point of One Punch Man seems to be to poke fun at the Over Powered Super Hero (And whatever the Japanese equivalent is). And what happens as soon as it get's popular? Everyone went straight to 'Who would win, Superman or One Punch Man.'

How foolish we are.

Apparently the writers of One Punch Man and Superman have both declared that their character's powers are infinite. The different is that one was self aware and joking, and the other one was completely serious.

Also, Kefka would totally ruin Sephiroth.

Maybe, but nobody can deny that Sephiroth has style.

Spoiler

And those abbs!

Oh yah, it's a style off, and you've backed the wrong man, sir!

Spoiler: Behold the Most Fabulous Man In All Creation

 

[Thaluikhain]

Well, yes, a character being more powerful doesn't make them more interesting.

OTOH, if you want to have an interesting fight, you'd likely want something approximating parity, and ranking characters in terms of power would be useful for that.

Alternatively, for deciding that character X isn't as powerful as they are made out to be, their powers are deeply flawed, let's make things different when we create our new character Y.

 

[Fox12]

snip

Well, that depends. Which is better? The bad boy black leather boots with a sweeping cape, or something a little more flamboyant? The answer?

Spoiler

It doesn't matter, because Sephiroth can do both.

I think we're all forgetting who the real hero is, though.

Spoiler

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

snip

Well, that depends. Which is better? The bad boy black leather boots with a sweeping cape, or something a little more flamboyant? The answer?

Spoiler

It doesn't matter, because Sephiroth can do both.

I think we're all forgetting who the real hero is, though.

Spoiler

God damn it. I tip my hat, good fellow.

Spoiler: What I feel like right now

 

[Odbarc]

When I first started writing characters and stories I found through trial that the most powerful characters happened to be the least interesting. It was the weak characters who had to find new strengths to cope with and conquer challenges that make them interesting.
When I had designed a character that looked cool I wanted him to be 'the hero' and thereby making him the strongest too. And all he could really do is show up and win. And because I needed more things to happen than one character showing up and winning all the time, all the other characters developed and become the most interesting.
I quickly scaled back the main characters power repetitively until he was one of the weakest characters with a unique style that gave him an edge to compensate for that lack of inherent power.

So in regards to Superman, the master of invincible, I find this character incredibly and terribly boring. Which is strange that as a kid I watched Superman III every chance I got to rent. The problem is that every time he has a challenge it turns out he wasn't trying and he just cranks up his effort and then he wins. And if he could spin around the Earth and go back in time, there was really no problem he couldn't just handle without some made up new power to solve it.
With the Hulk, however, he's a bit more interesting. Or at least Bruce Banner makes him that way. Bruce doesn't want the power because it's beyond his control. It's beyond anyone's control really and he's considered a force of nature. What makes it interesting is how long Bruce can hold out before the Hulk emerges and then the chaos ensues. The aftermath is never 'everything is fixed' so much as 'everything is ruined' including the bad guys plan.

But then you have a character like Goku from Dragonball Z. One the series main tropes is that he continuously gains more and new strength and conquers evil. New enemies always emerge as his superior only to be taken down by developing new powers or a means to use an existing power in a new way. There's a lot of rinse and repeat here but part of what makes it so endearing, I think, is that there are all the other characters who struggle and assist in the plot. Goku in particular is pretty one dimensional and almost has the same problem I had when I wrote my own material. His main role is to show up and win. He does it in very entertaining ways but you get to see how his friends first exploit the enemies as a foreshadowing tool to view their strengths before seeing those strengths fail against the main characters superior cunning and/or strength.



All in all, it's a little odd that while storied characters of brute or raw strength is often not terribly interesting, real life people who compete in combat sports like boxing and MMA who have those qualities are often admired and offer some of the more entertaining fights.

 

[Something Amyss]

I mean I could write a character right now that could literally beat up anything, but it wouldn't matter. "superhulkatron" or whatever he'd be called may be able to destroy the multiverse with an errant fart but the entire point of a story is to have some suspense, uncertainty and genuine tension in a story.

And I would contest that it's bad storytelling to force tension where there should be none. If you have a character who's a god, but have to concoct a

Sure, sure, comic book sales. But here's the thing. I'm a comic book fan. I've read them since I can remember. Comics helped me learn to read. My dad was a massive Spider-Man and Batman joke. It's practically in my DNA. My opinion might not be the mainstream, my purchases might not be, either, but I am entitled to both, and I like fights that make sense, stakes that make sense, and results that make sense.

I get to be annoyed when a guy who has been heralded as a god for 50 years can be plausibly beaten by a man who has been heralded as a normal human without superpowers for the last 30+ years. And yes, I know both characters have been around longer, but it's in those time periods I feel they've really been pushed this way.

But I, as a consumer, would rather not see these two fight and I think it's dumb. I thought this thread was going to be about hard power limits, like literally putting heroes on a scale, and I can agree, that's trivial minutiae and nobody should really care. And if the characters are somewhat in the same ballpark, fine. But while I can believe Superman might beat Flash in a footrace, it's going to set off alarms if Ma Kent does.

But perhaps I'm getting off topic here. The problem really comes down to "yes, you could write that character, but is it really interesting to do this with them?" Personally, I would argue no. People argue that Superman's hard to write. I think that's nonsense. I just think people often write the wrong kinds of stories about him. Kind of like if you establish the character of Tony Stark, brilliant inventor who creates awesome armour out of a sense of personal responsibility and then...tell stories about him filing his tax returns.

Superman could literally rule the world or destroy it. Instead, he chooses to help it. That's the point of interest for me. This is a guy who could quite literally get away with murder...hell, get away with genocide, and he opts to do the right thing. I would actually argue in Superman's case that being crazy OP needs nerf nao is one of his major character traits. It's what sets apart Supes from other characters. I think the punchups with Batman undermine both characters. And yeah, as far as comic purchases go, I'm probably in the minority.

But I'm certianly not alone. People do voice this a lot, and for good reason. It breaks suspension of disbelief, it devalues the characters, etc. It's like Worf being a badass on paper, but getting constantly knocked around. It makes Klingons look like they're made of tissue paper. It kills my suspension of disbelief and worse...I don't find it fun.

 

[Psytrese]

I kinda like the conversations about fights and power levels despite agreeing that they are inherently unimportant.

I feel like 2 fans in the know can depict a more "realistic" fight than writers come up with since they need to make the fights dramatic and victory is assured by the most popular character.

 

[Mangod]

I also got real pissy with FalloutJack, which he didn't deserve, then made an argument that Dora the Explorer would beat The Punisher in a fight. I guess it wasn't too bad of thread.

... for some reason I really want to see this:

Spoiler

VS this:

Spoiler

now.

 

[Saelune]

I kinda like x vs y type discussions when kept civil and without fan bias. Its a good exercise in abstract thinking and evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of characters.

 

[balladbird]

Fanboys definitely take the whole power level debate too far. Whether you're talking about characters from different series or the same, they're entirely too passionate about the whole debacle. My friends and I used to joke that there was an unwritten rule on the internet: if you ever failed to convince strangers that your favorite character was stronger than their favorite character, your penis would permanently and immediately shrivel by 1 cm.

granted, I was into shipping in fandoms pretty hardcore back in the day, and there's a lot of similar passion in that... so I concede to being a bit hypocritical.

the funny thing about the power level love is that the name we use for power levels comes from DBZ, and in DBZ literally the only reason power levels were introduced was to point out how inherently unreliable and useless they were.