Pratchett Attacks Doctor Who

[teh_gunslinger]

Personally I think Mr Pratchett is being a bit jealous because if he tried following the same techniques in his novels, well he would get called out on it.

Pterry writes fantasy novels. When he says a wizard did it he can tell you the wizard's shoe size.

I would be very surprised if Pratchett falls back on a "wizard did it" kind of plot device though. Perhaps a wizzard or the faculty as a whole, but if any author works hard to subvert tropes and clichés I'd say it's Pterry.

I'll hazard saying that if and when Pratchett uses deus ex machina it's for a purpose, and not because he has painted himself in a corner.

And about the shoe size of wizards, they are sometimes too small, when you step into your predecessors shoes.

EDIT: I also think a lot of people are getting this all wrong. Pterry are not contesting that it's fiction. He writes fiction himself. He is musing of wand waving as a boring and often nonsensical literary tool. There is a huge difference.

 

[SomethingUnrelated]

Interesting too see how people defend Dr. Who here...

I gotta be honest, sometimes, when watching Dr. Who, some stuff doesn't seem particularly thought through. For example:

Concerning the Weeping Angels, in the 'Blink' Episode, the Angels are made to freeze whenever the camera is on them, yet no characters are looking at them. Also, in that episode, it was never a problem to look an Angel in the eye. Also, when someone was 'killed' by them, anyone who knew them still had memory of them [Sparrow still remembered who that Officer fellow was].

In the latest ones, there were a few loopholes. Take, for instance, the moment where the Doctor is grabbed by his coat. Now, the camera turns to the Angels, who are frozen to stone, yet the Doctor isn't looking at them.

Now, if there are reasons for all this, then I'm happy to be stood corrected, but in there are examples of the whole makeitupasyougoalong storytelling, which makes the storytelling less credible to me as a fewer, and I don't think I'm alone in this one. Despite this, though, I still watch and enjoy Dr. Who, as it is fun to watch. But just these little details that put a question mark over the story...

 

[SenseOfTumour]

Firstly, as has been repeated and seemingly ignored, he's saying he enjoys Dr Who and thinks it is a good show, but that it's slipping into the format of going:

1. Bad thing happens.
2. Dr Who does something without any explanation.
3. Everyone celebrates.

whereas it used to be a case of

2. Dr Who analyzes the problem and finds a solution that, while in the realms of fantasy, sounds like it would be vaguely feasible, and is based in the flow of the plot.

As for Pratchett not following his own rules, the Discworld is a magical world, and while it may not follow 'our' rules, it follows rules of logic, and to an extent, stereotypical narrative and the power of tropes. Such as that magic is generally more dangerous to use than NOT use, and that a million to one chance should work nine times out of ten.

As is shown by a scene where, while trying to fire an arrow into a dragon's weak spot, they feel it's not a million to one chance, so he's bound to miss at the vital moment, so he closes one eye and stands on one leg, along with other things, to make it hard enough to be a million to one shot, because "whoever heard of a eight hundred thousand to one shot working?"

It makes no sense here, but under Discworld rules, it explains why a single arrow could maybe take down a dragon.

Pratchett's saying that in the Dr Who world, unlike before, it seems like a dragon could appear over London, be invulnerable to all attacks from the army, and then at the critical moment of the episode, find a dragon slaying setting on his sonic screwdriver which dispatches the dragon and everyone is saved, as opposed to formulating a cunning plan like his previous incarnations would have.

while the Discworld has strange and magical things happening, I don't think it often takes the easy route in terms of plot devices.

 

[Doug]

Well, he's a little harsh but if anyone is allowed to rant at Dr. Who for it's storytelling, it's Terry Pratchett.

Doesn't mean I have to agree with him though, I've come to love the Makeitupasyougoalong'ness of Dr. Who.

Indeedie - and I'm surprised how coheretant Terry still is, inspite of his status.

 

[Ashbax]

Pratchet needs a hobby. Like collecting buttons. Give him something better to do than look for faults in a random television program.

... Do you know who Terry Pratchett is? I have to ask because if it was sarcasm, it's hard to tell.

Yes...because, um, he does have a hobby. That hes quite famous for. Lol.

Its called writing.

 

[Blimey]

Is he fucking serious?

He makes his living writing fantasy novels, with clairvoyants, magic, and all that shit.

And yet he calls out Doctor Who?

What a lunatic.

Clearly, you didn't understand shit about what he said.

There is a HUGE difference between creating a fictional world with established rules unlike those on Earth - things like magic, generic sci-fi stuff, and so on, where things generally happen by these rules, however strange and complicated they might be, and simply resolving plots through use of Deus Ex Machina.

[link]http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeusExMachina [/link]

Here, enjoy losing hours of your time. Bwahaha, I sacrifice your collective productivity to Tv Tropes!

I'm fully aware of Deus Ex Machina. And I understand completely what he was saying. And what he was saying is that somehow Doctor Who is less valid of an entertainment source then say, a Fantasy novel. It would be like throwing out an ignorant-ass statement like video games can never be considered art.

Oh wait...

 

[Sevre]

I don't watch Dr.Who so I wouldn't be able to criticize, but Pratchett wrote my favourite book of all time (Men At Arms) so he gets the cookie.

 

[Cowabungaa]

He's right, but even he doesn't seem to care as he finds it very entertaining. And really, there's no need to complain when you're entertained. I sure as hell won't.

I can see the awfulness in Transformers, but I'm still entertained, I can see the flaws in Doctor Who, but I'm still entertained. And that's all what matters to me, whether I have fun or not.

But I won't forgive Moffat for

Spoiler

making the Angels move while we were watching.

That just broke the whole thing really, bad move there.

The solution is obvious: Terry Pratchett should write an episode for the new series, and show us all how it's done.

SO. MUCH. WANT!!!

 

[Ashbax]

Is he fucking serious?

He makes his living writing fantasy novels, with clairvoyants, magic, and all that shit.

And yet he calls out Doctor Who?

What a lunatic.

Pratchett writes Fantasy, Dr Who is Science Fiction. The concept of it is that it's supposed to be based upon science somewhere down the line. In Star Wars people can't breathe in outer space for example, and if they did, people would wonder why the hell they can.

Regardless, this is a UK newspaper reporting this, the chances are it was all taken completely out of context anyway, you wouldn't believe the crap they can get away with.

Worse, it's the Guardian Urgh...they probably made the story up.

I detect sarcasm. Admittedly the Guardian are not too bad, but they are not above sensationalism. I mean, The Escapist doesn't make money from each article individually and even the title here uses the word "attacks", despite Pratchett saying he is an avid fan.

And just to anwser the first post there, pratchett is allowed to get away with this no problem, have you ever read his books? He explains everything about the fantasy well, he makes magic seem a nuisance, rather than the harry potter version of a "fixallanwsertoeverything" he makes fantasy lands, people, cities, plots that seem like they could Work, and makes it seem real.

His problem is how Dr. Who does NONE of that, when its more inclined than him to do so.

 

[Doug]

Firstly, as has been repeated and seemingly ignored, he's saying he enjoys Dr Who and thinks it is a good show, but that it's slipping into the format of going:

1. Bad thing happens.
2. Dr Who does something without any explanation.
3. Everyone celebrates.

This - I tune in to every episode still, but most of the time, you can't actually predict whats going to happen, not because its a very subtle or ingenious solution, but because the solution is 'makeitupphysics'.

Though the latest episode with the Angels was actually quite clever.

 

[Kouen]

Ive not bothered with the rebooted series, I Used to watch the original series all the way to the end and that was it for me.

 

[liveslowdiefast]

I met mr.pratchett at a show at the NT and got his autograph, but i think he has a valid point about this.

 

[Acidwell]

-snip-

Doctor who is science fiction, it has other planets, aliens, space-ships and advanced technology. A basis in science fact or hypothesis is not what makes something science fiction because then you wouldn't count the work of H.G. Wells or Philip K. Dick as science fiction even though they are widely recognised as being some of the leading writers in the genre. A basis in fact only determines if it is hard or soft sf.

 

[Imperator Nick]

Terry Pratchett is a God. That is all.

 

[Billion Backs]

I'm fully aware of Deus Ex Machina. And I understand completely what he was saying. And what he was saying is that somehow Doctor Who is less valid of an entertainment source then say, a Fantasy novel. It would be like throwing out an ignorant-ass statement like video games can never be considered art.

Oh wait...

Ummm...

"I just wish that it was not classified as science fiction," he added.

Pratchett did admit that he still watched the show however, despite his grievances: "[it's]pure professionally-written entertainment, even if it helps sometimes if you leave your brain on a hook by the door ... I might shout at the screen again, but I will be watching on Saturday," he admitted. "After all, when you've had your moan you have to admit that it is very, very entertaining, with its heart in the right place, even if its head is often in orbit around Jupiter."

He didn't say it was less entertaining. He said it was less science-fiction.

There's a difference.

And it would be a rather factual thing to say that Doctor Who, on average, is NOT a hard science fiction show. Is it fun? Yeah, I'd say so. I've seen quite a few episodes myself, although I'm nowhere near one of my friends who even dresses up as the doctor whenever he can.

But it's not science fiction. Deus Ex Machina can be an okay resolution to a problem, but I think generally, it's viewed as bad taste or cheesy.

Science fiction should rely on science - real or imagined, for the most part imagined, really, to resolve the problems. Deus Ex Machina, especially in sense of "A plot element that didn't previously exist and has no logical explanation behind it.", doesn't really fit to well, I think.

But, whatever. It's like people don't read the whole fucking post or something.

 

[Billion Backs]

Mr Pratchet is entitled to his opinion. A very valid opinion stemming from vast experience in the matter at hand.

But it's just fiction, just like his books. Fiction can bend the rules and do as it pleases. So what if it strains belief? As long as it's amusing and good enough for a laugh, it should not matter. Keep enjoying the show Mr Pratchet and don't let it trouble you to much.

Fiction it is, all right. Entertaining, too, all right.

BUT NOT SCIENCE FICTION. That's the WHOLE argument in the opening post.

 

[edinflames]

How can you complain about something being "too fiction" in Science Fiction? Also, I thought Dr. Who was classified as Sci-fi/Fantasy. Is he saying that the old Dr. Who was okay while the new series is wrong?

Seems to me to be inclusive of all Dr Who. I remember watching reruns of Jon Pertwee and Tom Baker's incarnations of the Doctor when I was a kid and the show has always been more fantasy than science fiction. Without CGI and the modern Who's budget, the old show was made enjoyable by strong concepts and excellent characters.

What he attacks, with some justice, about the late-Tennant/Smith episodes is the story structure. To be fair the show pretty much always good fun regardless of poor narrative devices, probably because of its strong characters, concepts and casting.

 

[SenseOfTumour]

Thanks, it still seems to be lost on quite a few people that the only problem Pratchett has here is that the plot resolution isn't as strong or clever as it used to be, and that they're maybe relying too much on shiny effects and glossy sets and editing, and he's just hoping they'll go back to trying harder to have smart plots instead of:

1. Evil space thing
2. ???
3. Profit!

He does like it, he just knows it could be so much better with stronger threads running thru it.

 

[Abengoshis]

I do think that recently Doctor Who has got very stupid.

Talking to an oblivion continuum bomb to make it stop?
Pictures of angels become angels?
Space whales? Just...what!?
And with Tennant: Flying double decker buses....you get the picture...

 

[Kmadden2004]

It sounds like his gripes are more with the Russel T Davies era of Doctor Who, and if that is the case then I agree with him. I can't even begin to describe how pissed off I was with the way the third season ended (the world enslaved, mankind decimated, Master triumphant, then -POP- all back to normal... I MEAN COME ON!!!)

However, I'm seeing a lot less of the 'magic wand' approach with Moffat's tenure (though it's still early days). All the outcomes have been properly set-up and seem perfectly logical within the context of the plot and series...