Princess No More - Leia Has A New Title In Star Wars: The Force Awakens

Apr 5, 2008
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I think it's an American thing...no idea how royalty works. Not a criticism, but an observation. Episode II actually highlighted it to me and this just confirms it. I think it's due to the fact that all government figures in the US are elected to their roles. But it's Presidents and Ministers that are elected, not royalty. Anyway, doesn't matter, still gonna watch the film and hope it is as good as the hype surrounding it.
 

Something Amyss

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Dragonlayer said:
A more serious point: does Leia have any military experience to justify such a high rank, or is it simply a replacement title?
Well, by the end of Jedi, everyone has at least some military experience. The fact that Leia had already been previously part of the Rebellion implies some as well.

Plus, you know, they promoted Luke and Han to general already, so this is clearly an indication that women are held down...even in a galaxy far far way.

>.>

Fanghawk said:
Except in the Star Wars universe, some royal titles are treated as political terms. Which is why Padmé went from Queen Amidala in Episode I to Senator Amidala in Episode II.
Seems quite likely that this was done to reconcile her later role anyway, as they tend to drop the "Princess" post episode IV, except Han, who almost always does it sarcastically.

Though I think I like Darths and Droids [http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0021.html]' explanation better.

Maphysto said:
>Movie director makes a perfectly reasonable change to a character's title to reflect how she's changed over the last thirty-odd years

>Internet gets mad about feminism

Sounds about right.
Well, we're talking about a fairly trivial change that hurts nobody. Of course there will be problems.

Eclipse Dragon said:
exasperation date.
Timely typo, or pun?

Leia Organa-Solo
I can't speak for general rules, but as this sounds like something that shouldn't be in a kids' movie, I think we have a pretty good idea why she didn't hyphenate.

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
I know what's going on here! Disney Exec 1: "Isn't Leia a Princess?" Disney Exec 2: "Yeah but how can we sell Carrie Fisher as a Disney Princess to little girls who are better at getting their parents to spend money on them?" Disney Exec 1: "We can't! It's Carrie Fisher for god's sake!" Disney Exec 3: "Strip the title!" All Disney Execs in unison: "Strip the title!" JJ Abarams: "I feel a disturbance in the force." Carrie Fisher: "I suddenly feel less important."
I would have felt less important when they blew up the thing I was to rule over in Ep IV. This is probably a pretty big step up, really.
 

Karadalis

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The change makes sense, who wants to be princess of space dust anyways?

The PR guys promoting this as a big deal and the princess title bashing thought (as in reprimanding someone in movie because he adresses her as princes)... cringeworthy and makes no sense in universe because at the current point in time she wouldnt have been a princess for over 30 years or so. Why would anyone adress her as princess at this point?

Look we get it disney.. youre soooooooo progressive. Now.. could you please stop shoving it down everyones throat and just make a good movie?

All this "progressivness" isnt going to do jack shit if the movie sucks.
 

Fox12

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Jun 6, 2013
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KingsGambit said:
I think it's an American thing...no idea how royalty works. Not a criticism, but an observation. Episode II actually highlighted it to me and this just confirms it. I think it's due to the fact that all government figures in the US are elected to their roles. But it's Presidents and Ministers that are elected, not royalty. Anyway, doesn't matter, still gonna watch the film and hope it is as good as the hype surrounding it.
It's not that Americans don't know how royalty works, it's that George Lucas doesn't know how royalty works.

He wanted a democratically elected leader for his story, but since he was using fantasy tropes to create his universe he decided he needed to have a princess somewhere, just like he needed a wise old man and an idealistic farm boy with a magic sword. Of course, this technically means that you have a monarchy fighting against a dictatorship in A New Hope, and a 14 year old elected into office in Phantom Menace.
 
Apr 5, 2008
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Fox12 said:
KingsGambit said:
I think it's an American thing...no idea how royalty works. Not a criticism, but an observation. Episode II actually highlighted it to me and this just confirms it. I think it's due to the fact that all government figures in the US are elected to their roles. But it's Presidents and Ministers that are elected, not royalty. Anyway, doesn't matter, still gonna watch the film and hope it is as good as the hype surrounding it.
It's not that Americans don't know how royalty works, it's that George Lucas doesn't know how royalty works.

He wanted a democratically elected leader for his story, but since he was using fantasy tropes to create his universe he decided he needed to have a princess somewhere, just like he needed a wise old man and an idealistic farm boy with a magic sword. Of course, this technically means that you have a monarchy fighting against a dictatorship in A New Hope, and a 14 year old elected into office in Phantom Menace.
Noted about Lucas. That does make a lot of sense and neatly explains it.

Also, thank you the laugh, love it :)
 

Lightspeaker

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Something Amyss said:
Plus, you know, they promoted Luke and Han to general already, so this is clearly an indication that women are held down...even in a galaxy far far way.

>.>
Really hope that's a Poe there. Because...well...the title "Princess" as meaning "heir to the leadership of an entire planet" would seem to somewhat outrank "General".


Anyway, seems a bit weird but kinda makes sense. After all, her planet DID get blown up, not a lot to be Princess of there anymore. Although honestly I'd have more expected her to be a much more major political force, a proper leadership figure in the galaxy, than 'just' a military commander.

Personally I'd have wanted to keep the title "Princess" but that's just me. >_>
 

Something Amyss

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Fox12 said:
It's not that Americans don't know how royalty works, it's that George Lucas doesn't know how royalty works.

He wanted a democratically elected leader for his story, but since he was using fantasy tropes to create his universe he decided he needed to have a princess somewhere, just like he needed a wise old man and an idealistic farm boy with a magic sword. Of course, this technically means that you have a monarchy fighting against a dictatorship in A New Hope, and a 14 year old elected into office in Phantom Menace.
Dare I say, a better writer might have written around it.
 

Something Amyss

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Lightspeaker said:
Really hope that's a Poe there. Because...well...the title "Princess" as meaning "heir to the leadership of an entire planet" would seem to somewhat outrank "General".
You know, it was a joke (as the icons indicated), but even if it wasn't...your counter is addressed in the same post you quoted.

Actually, Poe's Law says it's impossible to tell a fanatic from a parody without the use of an indicator of the author's intent, such as a smiley or sarcasm tags. So you weren't even right to call Poe. Not only did I indicate a non-serious nature, that part you quoted.
 

Major_Tom

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Jun 29, 2008
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Meh, general is overrated. Major is the coolest rank.
EyeReaper said:
Since when does "Princess" or any other title of royalty not demand respect?
Since 17 July 1918.
 

Dragonlayer

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erttheking said:
Dragonlayer said:
So what? Someone can't ever make an announcement about a character being refereed to by a different title without it being to show how progressive the movie is? It seems more like look at Leia's new character considering that now she's under a lot of pressure and has a lot of people depending on her. The change is about how she's being pushed into new responsibilites, I don't know where you're getting the implication that people are saying that now she's more feminist because she's not a princess.

If "First female villain" is purely marketing how progressive the movie is...well it's a pretty pathetic attempt considering how weak sauce it is to say "After decades we FINALLY got a female villain!" I looked up this "first female villain" thing and it's more about Gwendoline Christie talking about how proud she is to be the first female Star Wars villain. If people talking about how new possibilities makes them excited is just marketing how progressive the movie is, then MORE PLEASE!
Eh? I think you're lambasting the wrong person there!
 

Erttheking

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Dragonlayer said:
erttheking said:
Dragonlayer said:
So what? Someone can't ever make an announcement about a character being refereed to by a different title without it being to show how progressive the movie is? It seems more like look at Leia's new character considering that now she's under a lot of pressure and has a lot of people depending on her. The change is about how she's being pushed into new responsibilites, I don't know where you're getting the implication that people are saying that now she's more feminist because she's not a princess.

If "First female villain" is purely marketing how progressive the movie is...well it's a pretty pathetic attempt considering how weak sauce it is to say "After decades we FINALLY got a female villain!" I looked up this "first female villain" thing and it's more about Gwendoline Christie talking about how proud she is to be the first female Star Wars villain. If people talking about how new possibilities makes them excited is just marketing how progressive the movie is, then MORE PLEASE!
Eh? I think you're lambasting the wrong person there!
....Oh fuck me. I got my tabs mixed up. Sorry

I wanted to say to you "No more than Lando did"
 

Dragonlayer

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Dec 5, 2013
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Fanghawk said:
Dragonlayer said:
A more serious point: does Leia have any military experience to justify such a high rank, or is it simply a replacement title?
Well, they promote smugglers and city managers to General, even if they're still technically recovering from carbonite freezing. Don't see why Leia couldn't get the job.
Oh well then, far be it from me to question the efficiency of the chain of command of the rebel scum New Republic....
 

Dragonlayer

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Fox12 said:
Dragonlayer said:
She won't be wearing the traditional Alderaan gold bikini either: complete break with the past, this film!

A more serious point: does Leia have any military experience to justify such a high rank, or is it simply a replacement title?
Well, she helped Rieekan during the battle of Hoth, so she seems to know what she's doing. Moreso then Han or Lando, who apparently got promoted because of their devilish good looks and wicked smiles.


But who can blame them?

It makes more sense then being a princess, since her planet was, you know, destroyed.
That is one boggle eyed looking Lando - demote him immediately.
 

Fox12

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Something Amyss said:
Fox12 said:
It's not that Americans don't know how royalty works, it's that George Lucas doesn't know how royalty works.

He wanted a democratically elected leader for his story, but since he was using fantasy tropes to create his universe he decided he needed to have a princess somewhere, just like he needed a wise old man and an idealistic farm boy with a magic sword. Of course, this technically means that you have a monarchy fighting against a dictatorship in A New Hope, and a 14 year old elected into office in Phantom Menace.
Dare I say, a better writer might have written around it.
Quite easily. All the writer would have to do is make the title part of their cultural heritage, while still making the character democratically elected. Or, alternatively, certain worlds have monarchies, but they still have representatives in the space-senate. Basically just do this:

crimson5pheonix said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_monarchy
Of course, Lucas didn't do that. He seemed to make Leia a hereditary princess when she should have been elected, since she's fighting for representation. Meanwhile, Padme is evidently a 14 year old elected official, when she should have been a hereditary figurehead. You can have a teenage princess if it's hereditary, but it's ridiculous to suggest that she was voted into office.

Again, we're thinking way more about this way more then he did. He just wanted to fill out as many spaces on his Heroes Journey bingo card as possible, so every girls got to be a princess.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Fox12 said:
Something Amyss said:
Fox12 said:
It's not that Americans don't know how royalty works, it's that George Lucas doesn't know how royalty works.

He wanted a democratically elected leader for his story, but since he was using fantasy tropes to create his universe he decided he needed to have a princess somewhere, just like he needed a wise old man and an idealistic farm boy with a magic sword. Of course, this technically means that you have a monarchy fighting against a dictatorship in A New Hope, and a 14 year old elected into office in Phantom Menace.
Dare I say, a better writer might have written around it.
Quite easily. All the writer would have to do is make the title part of their cultural heritage, while still making the character democratically elected. Or, alternatively, certain worlds have monarchies, but they still have representatives in the space-senate. Basically just do this:

crimson5pheonix said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_monarchy
Of course, Lucas didn't do that. He seemed to make Leia a hereditary princess when she should have been elected, since she's fighting for representation. Meanwhile, Padme is evidently a 14 year old elected official, when she should have been a hereditary figurehead. You can have a teenage princess if it's hereditary, but it's ridiculous to suggest that she was voted into office.

Again, we're thinking way more about this way more then he did. He just wanted fill out as many spaces on his Heroes Journey bingo card as possible, so every girls got to be a princess.
Not that I necessarily disagree... But strictly speaking do you know that they don't elect 14 year olds to heads of state? They did, after all, get taken over by a geriatric wizard with steel wool instead of a voice box and that whiny thing that is Anakin.
 

Dragonlayer

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Vausch said:
Dragonlayer said:
She won't be wearing the traditional Alderaan gold bikini either: complete break with the past, this film!

A more serious point: does Leia have any military experience to justify such a high rank, or is it simply a replacement title?
This takes place decades later and she has shown she's quite adept with a gun, has experience in spy work, can handle torture, can kill with improvised weaponry, can befriend aliens that consider people like her a delicacy, and she led the rebels on Endor. I think it's justified she earned the title after all this time.
Aside from the leadership of the rebels on Endor, a point I had completely forgotten, all of those sound like they would make good experience for an individual soldier or agent, not a General. For instance, how does putting on a disguise in Jabba's palace make her ready to command thousands?

To be fair though, I am judging this entirely on her film actions, not Expanded Universe or anything else.
 

Fox12

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crimson5pheonix said:
In the real world 14 year old girls don't get elected as heads of state. Or planets, for that matter. In Star Wars they evidently do, which is why I think it's silly. I can disbend my disbelief in fantasy, but that's pushing it, even for me. The world can be fantastic, but people still have to act like people. The only thing that really bothers me about it is that it could have been quickly fixed in editing. He just needed another screen writer to give it the once over. It's a little lazy of him, and I honestly believed that he may have written a single draft for his films.
 

Lightspeaker

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Something Amyss said:
Lightspeaker said:
Really hope that's a Poe there. Because...well...the title "Princess" as meaning "heir to the leadership of an entire planet" would seem to somewhat outrank "General".
You know, it was a joke (as the icons indicated), but even if it wasn't...your counter is addressed in the same post you quoted.

Actually, Poe's Law says it's impossible to tell a fanatic from a parody without the use of an indicator of the author's intent, such as a smiley or sarcasm tags. So you weren't even right to call Poe. Not only did I indicate a non-serious nature, that part you quoted.

As far as the "counter" thing goes...you somehow missed the part where I pointed out that I'd rather expect a person known for being an important political leader of the rebellion to take on a major political role in a new government, not a military one. Even if she was insistent on dropping "Princess".

Furthermore, you didn't actually make it clear it was non-serious, I genuinely thought you might have been trying to make that argument. Frankly I could easily see someone making that exact complaint. In fact I could easily see you doing it yourself based on posts I've seen from you previously.

Anyway, whatever, believe what you want. But thanks for the insultingly aggressive reply, done talking now. I don't really want to spend my time arguing with someone who seems to have decided to be outright nasty to me over such a minor issue.