PRISM - Where are all the protests?

Hawkeye21

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Americans no longer remember what freedom is, and even if they did they would happily trade it for "protection" against whatever scary strawman their government picked at the drop of the hat. They would only protest against something that threatens their comfort or wealth.
 

Devil's Due

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People are living in denial with their "If you have nothing to hide" deal. It's pathetic, really. They have no idea how badly this will be abused. I do.

I was in training to get a commision as an officer of the United States Air Force (through ROTC) and later took a break to gather my head since I've been with the AF for a long time. I was scheduling appointments to go back and resume my process and possibly finally contract in when this broke. After researching it a bit and finding out how the government isn't even denying it but swatting people away with "lolwtf u gonna do?" kind of remarks, I am currently refusing to wear any military uniform again and will not be rejoining ROTC. I cannot serve a government that tramples on the very oath that I would have taken. In the US military, we are required to protect the constitution above all others. They broke the 4th Amendment. They broke the oath. So I refuse to rejoin.

Will it make a difference? Nope, they won't even notice any more than any other cadet leaving for whatever reason, they'll make their quota some other way, but I feel in my heart it was the right move. My entire family served and it was my turn and all I knew, yet I gave up the chance willingly because of this.

Currently, I'm still going to refuse to ever wear any military uniform until the Supreme Court strikes this down from the ACLU lawsuit. I trust the Judicial branch since lately they've done mostly great in keeping civil liberties (mostly). If they fail, I have no idea what I would do knowing all three branches of government failed me. I'd actually consider renouncing my citizenship and moving to Iceland, Germany or any other country that protects their citizens rights.

I love America, I want to serve still and help, but I refuse to help a corrupt government. For now, as I said, I'm waiting and just trying to get my degree. Waiting for the checks and balances to happen. If it happens, I'll rejoin immediately. If not, I have some new languages to learn (which I will fail utterly, sigh)

EDIT: I guess I'm on the NSA's list now, if I wasn't already for my avatar. Heh.
 

Tanakh

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elthingo said:
Good for you bro, then you know that right now there is a black bloc in egypt strong enough to simultaneously paralyze 8 cities and which is made of loosely united individuals fighting for political and religious freedom. Said group has both made a bigger impact in it's country and suffered more losses in this last months than any recent freedom fighting group from USA that I can recall, which is exactly what I said in my post.

As for "freedom" in the current american vocabulary, it is just a market speech word, doesn't mean a thing, same as "innovation" or "immersion" in the video game industry it's big in selling shit and making speeches, that doesn't make it a big deal. In the beginning? It was pretty easy to define, economic, legislative and religious freedom; though the whole story of the american revolution is quite overblown IMO, it was just one movement of the world chess being played between Spain, France and Britain.
 

elthingo

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Tanakh said:
elthingo said:
Good for you bro, then you know that right now there is a black bloc in egypt strong enough to simultaneously paralyze 8 cities and which is made of loosely united individuals fighting for political and religious freedom. Said group has both made a bigger impact in it's country and suffered more losses in this last months than any recent freedom fighting group from USA that I can recall, which is exactly what I said in my post.

As for "freedom" in the current american vocabulary, it is just a market speech word, doesn't mean a thing, same as "innovation" or "immersion" in the video game industry it's big in selling shit and making speeches, that doesn't make it a big deal. In the beginning? It was pretty easy to define, economic, legislative and religious freedom; though the whole story of the american revolution is quite overblown IMO, it was just one movement of the world chess being played between Spain, France and Britain.
Yes, and then there's the hundreds of young people who sacrificed their lives or got permanent injuries in the actual revolution when they stood up against the (literal) police state. This isn't Egyptian society though, it's a corner of Egyptian society. The rest of it is still learning what freedom is, since it's a brand new thing for them. A decent section of said society is actually against it. I wouldn't be surprised if these are as numerous, if not much more numerous, than the ones fighting tooth and nail to establish true freedom in the country and keep the islamists from taking a big, strict sharia law shaped shit on its future. But like I said, that is changing, fortunately.

But yes, Egyptians have in the last 2 years sacrificed a hundred times more for a vague idea of freedom that they haven't truly experienced in the past than Americans have for the last few decades. You're right there.

Anyway, what I was trying to say is, it's a much bigger part of US society than Egyptian society, or, well, the word anyway. Hence why I expected someone to go "Hey, the NSA did what? That's not freedom! Let's do all we can to stop this!" or something, even if their concept of freedom is a bit, well, strange and not too well defined, often being used as a meaningless buzzword.

And yeah, the revolution was, all in all, quite stupid and is being glorified something awful in the US. It's the ideals they formed years after the revolution and pursued for a long time that I was talking about, that all white men (emphasis on WHITE and MEN) should be completely free and independent of everything, even the government(except slaves, i guess. They don't get any freedom, and it's totally fine being dependent on their work apparantly...). This came to affect modern US society.
 

xDarc

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thaluikhain said:
O maestre said:
This is the kind of stuff that tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists have been raving about for ages, except this is real.
Well, there's that, but then it's not just conspiracy theorists saying it. People have known, or at least suspected, the US government of doing such things for years, the conspiracy theorists just exaggerate it.

Plenty of examples of the US doing this sort of thing in the past, nobody is that surprised to learn they are still doing it.
It's all real, and people who say otherwise are always conspiracy theorists. It's much, much worse- what they are running damage control on right now is just the tip of the ice berg. Look up what ex-air force intelligence officer Russell Tice has to say about it; they are collecting EVERYTHING, ALL THE TIME.

That's why they have a data center in Utah that holds more than a TRILLION TERABYTES.

Tice takes it a step further, he says they are using this information to black mail elected and appointed government officials. Is it really a stretch? We are already know someone up on high is sicking the IRS on people they disagree with politically.

As far as why people aren't protesting, my guesses:

-Obama has tapped into many of the grass roots organizations that used to put demonstrations together during the Bush years to aide him in both elections; you'd have to imagine they'd be pretty reluctant to turn on Obama.

-Birth rates have dropped to record lows; not enough young people who are the core demographic for protest movements.

-Of the young people we do have, many don't have jobs or cars and they focus quite a bit on social media. They're largely invisible offline.

I've talked to people about this, they either laugh or they just stare at me and don't know what to say. I haven't met a single person yet who will look me in the eye and tell me honestly it's for our own good. I guess people feel powerless. As for me, I find myself in a common position; I'd love to help, fight the power and all that, but I have a mortgage and girlfriend/future wife to look after.

Back in my younger days, I was out there choking on tear gas at WTO/TABD demonstrations with the best of them. Those days are over, I have things to lose now. I suppose I'd help out if there were something local, but I'd be really nervous about getting arrested at any sort of demonstration. If your employer finds out, you're toast.
 

Do4600

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The problem here is that within the next 40 years it won't matter, privacy will be a thing of the past for everybody. Everybody will be on the grid and everybody will know everything else about everybody else. I feel this is an inevitable conclusion. At some point everything you own will have bundles of sensors so the object can react to you. For instance, your cellphone right now could probably be operated from the across the room by waving your hand and speaking, this will only become more common until the point when the paint on your walls will be able to tell your mood and change the colors and patterns because of embedded nano processors and sensors.

In the end every object you own will know more about you than you remember about yourself. It could very easily get to the point where the information your objects have collected about you becomes greater than the sum of the information that makes up your physical body.

So the NSA is spying on us? Everything we own is spying on us. The phone company tracks our calls, ISPs track our traffic, our cars track where we drive, stores track our buying habits and Google tailors ads directly to our perceived interests. Everything is tracked, the only thing that changes is the intent of the person getting and collating the information.

So what's worse, the NSA seeing I'm not a terrorist or Amazon trying to sell me grow lights whenever I'm on Youtube because I bought a hydrometer from them 10 months ago?

As far as impeaching the president and having early elections goes, it won't matter, in this county we have two parties that have nearly the exact same approach to every issue except social policies, so yes, we could get a new president who bans abortion but he wouldn't do a damn thing about the patriot act. Also the senate would still be gridlocked, conservatives have essentially shut down our government by refusing to agree to any policy on any grounds, so when we're in danger of defaulting on our loans because we haven't passed a annual budget in nearly 19 months you really think a protest and possible riot is really going to change peoples minds about spying on us to prevent some people from organizing terrorist actions...you know....like riots.

Also, what really is the point of privacy? The point of freedom is obvious, but I suppose I don't quite get the point of privacy. Even if somebody was peeping at me right now, what's the point? What could possibly be exposed about me that would be so much worse than what could be exposed about anybody else?

Everybody has dirty little secrets and habits, everybody, and in this country people don't seem to give nearly as much of a shit about them as they did 30 years ago.
 

Mauler

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Heh... Now i get person of interest... all those subliminal messeges about protecting guys from irrelevant list... they made it so they could legitimize spying supercomputers made heroes... wait that kinda sounded better in my head... sorry...
 

Kirke

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Kolby Jack said:
Kirke22 said:
I mean, not officially, but I think if Sweden were ever hit hard by some kind of trouble the US and many other countries would not hesitate to help out. Neutral or not, we can still be friends.
In the case of natural disasters and the like, sure. But military? We would maybe get help from Norway, Denmark and Finland. Other countries would denounce it, but not assist openly.

The point here is that what citizens of other nations does, or indeed what their own people do, is none of the US government's business. This is breaching national laws, almost certainly EU laws and even the fundamental rights of all human beings as outlined by the UN. If we cannot trust out government to defend us in this matter, then how can we trust them at all? At least other countries appear to be giving this whistle-blower political asylum, so perhaps there is some hope.
 

Mcupobob

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Obama pretty much gets away with whatever he want, I have no clue why. Barley a year into office and Obama's cabinet gets caught with tax evasion. He extends the Patriot act, fast and furious, his little side wars and bombings into Libya and Syria. Trying to make it legal to drone strike on the U.S itself if it weren't for Rand Paul Filibustering the crap out of that and he caught shit for that!

That dude is untouchable, I've given up on American Politics. I highly doubt the next guy to get into office will be even remotely better or any damage that has been done will be reversed. Come 2016 were either gonna get Hilary(shudders) or whatever crazy millionaire psychopath the GOP can find.
 

Reeve

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ryessknight said:
I live in the u.s. Didnt even know this existed till i saw this forum post. Dont really care much either, i wouldnt doubt that atleast half of that info is just either media fearmongering and/or republician freakouts like always here.
OMFG WOW

This is the problem right here folks. XD



The above gem of a post keeps me confident that things aren't going to get better soon. I'd say we're going down hill - in a derailed train...powered by a hyper-drive.

 

Reeve

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By the way: One thing we could all do to turn things around is stop using private banks. Take all of our money out and go back to the non-digital days. Maybe even return to bartering.

But let's be honest: Hell will freeze over before any sane person actually does that! :D
 

Devil's Due

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Reeve said:
By the way: One thing we could all do to turn things around is stop using private banks. Take all of our money out and go back to the non-digital days. Maybe even return to bartering.

But let's be honest: Hell will freeze over before any sane person actually does that! :D
I've actually deleted my Facebook account and closed my USBank account and now instead only work with a local credit union (and trying to gather all my money in bills) and spread knowledge through posters / brochures. I suppose hell froze over than, because there are some people working like this, they just aren't able to talk about it since they've mostly deleted their online profiles / severely limit where they go.

There's a lot of protest going on. I left the Air Force ROTC program to train as an officer because of this breach of the consitution. Rallies are being organized around the country under the banner "Restore the Fourth." Visit their website here:

http://www.restorethefourth.net/

It's all peaceful. We're just rallying protests and using other legal means to show our displeasure sure as the petitions online and calling congressmen, but we need more help. Just gotta keep spreading the word!

Because we cannot afford to ignore it this time. Once this gets settled, then I'll happy return to ROTC and FB and crap again, but how long that will take is unknown.

EDIT: Post 1919, the end of the War to End all Wars. How.. well, actually not ironic but whatever. Maybe if this was my 1912 post or something instead that'd be more accurate.
 

Tanakh

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elthingo said:
Anyway, what I was trying to say is, it's a much bigger part of US society than Egyptian society, or, well, the word anyway. Hence why I expected someone to go "Hey, the NSA did what? That's not freedom! Let's do all we can to stop this!" or something, even if their concept of freedom is a bit, well, strange and not too well defined, often being used as a meaningless buzzword.
But why would you expect that? Gringos are one of the most passive and stable societies, in the last 50 years they passed from being one of the best places to live to have social indexes quite similar to Mexico, especially in wealth distribution and social mobility (the second being probably the closest you can get to have a "freedom index").

They have a very distorted impression of themselves, in general, which i attribute in no small part to the manifest destiny ideology. But in general i see them as conservative and passive, again, based on their indexes, current pop culture, their legislation and their politicians.

I guess what i am saying is, you seem like a smart folk, why would you base your expectations of USA on their self propaganda rather than their actions and numbers?

Also, as i pointed out on another similar thread, we have had documented proof that the US gov has been spying using the net both americans and non americans in 2001, then in 2006, then in 2008... if they didn't cared then, why now?

As for revolutions and freedom, you are right the liberals and freedom fighters are just a few in Egypt, but do you know how many russians did their revolution? Around 0.1% of the population, that is about 1 in 1000 dudes. Revolutions are weird, numbers vary, but they almost never represent their countries brah.
 

Reeve

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Devil said:
Reeve said:
By the way: One thing we could all do to turn things around is stop using private banks. Take all of our money out and go back to the non-digital days. Maybe even return to bartering.

But let's be honest: Hell will freeze over before any sane person actually does that! :D
I've actually deleted my Facebook account and closed my USBank account and now instead only work with a local credit union (and trying to gather all my money in bills) and spread knowledge through posters / brochures. I suppose hell froze over than, because there are some people working like this, they just aren't able to talk about it since they've mostly deleted their online profiles / severely limit where they go.

There's a lot of protest going on. I left the Air Force ROTC program to train as an officer because of this breach of the constitution. Rallies are being organized around the country under the banner "Restore the Fourth." Visit their website here:

http://www.restorethefourth.net/

It's all peaceful. We're just rallying protests and using other legal means to show our displeasure sure as the petitions online and calling congressmen, but we need more help. Just gotta keep spreading the word!

Because we cannot afford to ignore it this time. Once this gets settled, then I'll happy return to ROTC and FB and crap again, but how long that will take is unknown.

EDIT: Post 1919, the end of the War to End all Wars. How.. well, actually not ironic but whatever. Maybe if this was my 1912 post or something instead that'd be more accurate.
It made me happy to read this, thanks :)

Myself, on the other hand, am not a citizen of Eagleland and I'm also a uni student so I can't exactly be "going off the grid" atm xD

I hope you're able to get your country sorted out! So good luck. ;)



MAY THE FOURTH BE WITH YOU.
 

Abyes_Shovel

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From my paranoid opinion, I'm not from the U.S, I thought someone was no doubt spying on us all anyway so y'know, I behave I always have I haven't got anything to hide. Not that you need to it's an absolute violation of privacy and in some ways human rights but I can honestly say I really don't have the motivation to blather on about human rights tonight.
 

Lunar Shadow

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Mimsofthedawg said:
Wenseph said:
Kolby Jack said:
Wenseph said:
I doubt that will happen. There's not many countries that are hostile to us. The world is moving forward, and becoming more globalized, with a better understanding and communication with other countries wars are less likely to happen. Few or no one goes to war to expand their borders anymore. Some countries aren't fear mongering. <_< Some even get rid of most of their military, to spend money on more important things, like Sweden has been doing since they stopped forcing military service on the young.

Also, haha, no. Only in the way that you'll one day end. Debt. >_>

I don't care. I have no love for humans.
Right, debt. Like how for every dollar we owe, we're owed 80 cents? Or how our debt is less than a percent of our gross worth? Our debt causes us issues when it comes to our economy, but it's not what will cause us to collapse. Try again.

By the way, The US hasn't had a draft since Vietnam. We're all volunteer, and yet we still have one of the largest militaries on earth. And I already said, that's fine for Sweden, but there are still threats out there and future threats to be prepared for, and somebody is going to have to foot a lot of the bill. The US is in the best position to do it.

Whether or not your misanthropy is genuine doesn't really matter. It's a futile standpoint and there's no point in me even addressing it.
Hopefully one of your perceived "threats" will win in the end then. That's probably because soldiers seems to be celebrated as heroes in your culture. >_> Anyway, I find it meaningless to argue with the brainwashed.
What is unfortunately overlooked by many Europeans is that the peace you cherish so greatly was bought and secured with American blood. There is simply no way around this fact.
If you are referring to WW2, that logic would dictate that Europe had more to thank the USSR for as they lost ALOT more blood than Americans retaking Europe.
 

secretkeeper12

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Apologies for the long and somewhat inflaming post. I've got a few things to get off my chest (not against any of you, though!)

TIMESWORDSMAN said:
I've been telling people about it, as many as I can, but the most I can seem to do is convince them to put electrical tape over any device with a webcam.
Hold on, I thought the problem was the Gov. snooping on private conversations, not literally spying on people through their own devices? That seems like it'd be rather pointless, you know?

DoveAlexa said:
Though really, while I like to be able to keep my person safe from BS like this, it seems like most people completely deserve whatever they get.
That's a rather harsh viewpoint. I mean, the only "crime" they've committed is not caring enough. If it bites them in the ass then it shouldn't be a surprise, but I wouldn't consider it a justice.
Taurus Vis said:
For so long, the populace has been asleep. The media will never let you understand the slow but cancerous changes that have been changing America for freedom to enslavement since the 1970s. They are on the governments payroll, taking stories pre-written for them by "government officials" who write both the left wing and right wing side of the story. They keep those even partially invested in government distracted by wedge issues like gay marriage or whatever else pushes buttons, all the while working to disarm the populace and sending young men to war to die for old men's money. It has to stop, but it can only stop if you decide to act. Please watch this, and please get involved.
I don't buy it. There's so many outlets for news and communication, from newspapers to television to the world wide web, that it would be remarkable if the government could actually control it all. Not that it's impossible, just seems like such an enormous (and, if you're videos prove anything, futile) effort. Finally, accessible foreign newspapers like the Guardian are more than willing to report on our scandals and affairs, so rest assured those "young men" were capable of educating themselves on their country's motivations before joining the armed forces.
Monster_user said:
Are the "tin foil hat" guys the problem? Spend a hundred years screaming 1984, and let people get used to the concept. Then when it actually happens, well,... So the tin foil hat guys were right all along? That's cool.

Probably more likely that people are living in their own self-reinforcing bubbles, rather than discussing things with those they disagree with. Because disagreements are unpleasant.

There are a lot of questions to be asked, and discussions to be had. Who is discussing the benefits and ramifications of "Big Brother"? Who is coming up with solutions for real world problems, that don't create a high risk of a police state later?
Well from my experience people who take the stance against government on these issues tend to be quite arrogant and self-reinforcing. It's probably just a result of poor communication-you can't exactly be kind when telling someone they're being exploited beyond their control- but its rather irritating and distracting.
Frostbite3789 said:
thaluikhain said:
Likewise, the US is, as a whole, very big on democracy, and how it makes them the greatest nation on Earth. And yet half the voters don't bother voting, and massive slabs of the nation truly despise other massive slabs.
It's like you don't understand that's part of the system and what makes it good. I didn't agree with either big candidate in the last Presidential election, so I didn't vote for either. And I'm not going to waste chunks of my day when I'm a poor college student and was working or studying instead, standing in line to throw my vote away on a third party candidate.
I've never thought of it that way, actually. Perhaps our apathy is a result of more than just human laziness! That's the type of thing we should be doing studies on.

Quick! Someone show me the poll turnouts from the UK's last election!
Therumancer said:
If you want to have your arguments taken seriously, you're gonna have to have some sources to back it up; otherwise it's just a bunch of broad claims anyone could make.

omegaweopon said:
Oh yeah, and also, so many people have so much apathy to this thing it's incredible. Seriously. The media sweeping it under the rug. The government witch hunt. Which celebrity is marrying whom. This place is the worst. I swear. (Lucky me. I just so happen to be residing in what I feel is the worst state of this terrible country. Also, I called this country terrible. I'm a terrorist now according to a lot of Americans.)
The way I see it, everyone's gonna have to stop caring about the world's problems at SOME point. Whether they draw the line at themselves, world hunger or government surveillance, people can only worry so much before turning apathetic. Of course, when all sorts of problems everywhere never get taken care of (how're those chocolate slaves [http://thecnnfreedomproject.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/16/chocolate-explainer/]holding up?), then yeah. it's fucking disgraceful.
Abandon4093 said:
What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egotism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that our desire will ruin us.
It seems simple, but it really isn't. The main problem I see is separating distractions from legit issues. We can all agree that sex, drugs, or rock n' roll are just wastes of time, but what about things like education, religion, or parenting? Even the aforemented rock n' roll could be a force for good if it highlights social issues in society. Of course, laziness is still a huge factor in apathy, which most people agree is a bad thing. Problem being they already see themselves as "doing enough".
Wenseph said:
Also, I wasn't propagating peace or acceptance. I don't care. I don't despise any single type of person. I hate everyone equally.
Genuine question: What would have to happen to humans to be worthy of respect or at least acquaintanceship?
DrunkOnEstus said:
We have more distractions now than during the mass levels of protest the US experienced in the 60's and 70's as well. Back then, they didn't have a cell phone ringing or texting every minute, and they didn't have an MMO to get back to as soon as work was over. I imagine more people did their conversations and meetings in person and in groups far more often than we do today, where something like this NSA thing would spark a fire and mob mentality would make more people feel comfortable about "doing something about it".
I think most "slacktivists" honestly don't care about the issues they support, and would contribute nothing to the cause otherwise. People who honestly care still get out there and protest like always. If they don't convince anyone join them, odds are they wouldn't of even without social media.

Greni said:
Let the wishes of the few outweigh the needs of many -
In this land where money talks we have little chance if any.
Bring the nation back to basics -
Lionize Dickensian dreams,
Hide a heart that's grey and cold behind an image squeaky-clean.
This type of stuff has been going on since the Gilded Age. Considering how far we've come in the century since (like the existence of regularions, for starters) and the huge amount of support humanitarian causes get in the Western world, I'd say, bar complete social collapse, people won't let these tyrannies last much longer. It's not gonna be anytime soon, but the spark is certainly there.
tofulove said:
i am very morally against prism, but at the same time i want to play devils advocate just a little bit for fun.

im not talking about the justification of we need it to stop the terrorist. no im talking about if the worse thing i have to worry about is some one sitting in a room listening and watching me have phone sex, we as a society have came a long way. in the industrial revolution the worse thing we had to worry about was a long list, mutilated limbs, damaged lungs, working 14 hours a day 7 days a week and not making enough to feed my kids. in medieval society the worse thing to worry about was also a long list, being forced to fight in some lords war i care nothing about, being raped and pillage by said lord or another lord cause they wanted some thing i have, a huge portion of my children dieing at birth.

life sucks, and this is a gross abuse of our government. if you take a step back and look at the big picture you will see prism is bad, but it ant rapping you and steeling your food yet. we must be ever vigilant, because if they could get away with it you could bet your ass they would.
Agreed. Glad I'm not the only one with some perspective!

Doesn't validate PRISM, though.
 

Generic4me

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To be honest, there isn't really any reaction because we're currently in the middle of the event. We don't really know what happened, because it is still happening.

But I feel that people are being so apathetic to this is because we've started to get to the breaking point of how much we really care.

Yeah, it sucks, but damn it, I have bills to pay. I have a kid to raise. I have places to be, people to see, shit to do, I don't have time to go and protest something like this, and it's not like my protesting is going to mean anything anyways, look at OWS, they had this enormous movement, but they gave up eventually and nothing got changed. You can't win, and those who lash out are punished. I can't afford that punishment. I'll let other people deal with it. In 20 years, it probably won't matter anyways.

That's basically the argument, and it's pretty hard to argue against. Everything in there is absolute truth, and they're absolutely right that there is literally nothing we can do. We might slow them down, they might throw us a small compromise, but it'll be throwaway and utterly useless. In the long run, we still lose the same amount.