PRISM - Where are all the protests?

[Vhite]

Basically what George Carlin always said.

 

[Mauler]

Heh... Now i get person of interest... all those subliminal messeges about protecting guys from irrelevant list... they made it so they could legitimize spying supercomputers made heroes... wait that kinda sounded better in my head... sorry...

 

[Kirke]

Snip

I mean, not officially, but I think if Sweden were ever hit hard by some kind of trouble the US and many other countries would not hesitate to help out. Neutral or not, we can still be friends.

In the case of natural disasters and the like, sure. But military? We would maybe get help from Norway, Denmark and Finland. Other countries would denounce it, but not assist openly.

The point here is that what citizens of other nations does, or indeed what their own people do, is none of the US government's business. This is breaching national laws, almost certainly EU laws and even the fundamental rights of all human beings as outlined by the UN. If we cannot trust out government to defend us in this matter, then how can we trust them at all? At least other countries appear to be giving this whistle-blower political asylum, so perhaps there is some hope.

 

[Mcupobob]

Obama pretty much gets away with whatever he want, I have no clue why. Barley a year into office and Obama's cabinet gets caught with tax evasion. He extends the Patriot act, fast and furious, his little side wars and bombings into Libya and Syria. Trying to make it legal to drone strike on the U.S itself if it weren't for Rand Paul Filibustering the crap out of that and he caught shit for that!

That dude is untouchable, I've given up on American Politics. I highly doubt the next guy to get into office will be even remotely better or any damage that has been done will be reversed. Come 2016 were either gonna get Hilary(shudders) or whatever crazy millionaire psychopath the GOP can find.

 

[Reeve]

I live in the u.s. Didnt even know this existed till i saw this forum post. Dont really care much either, i wouldnt doubt that atleast half of that info is just either media fearmongering and/or republician freakouts like always here.

OMFG WOW

This is the problem right here folks. XD

The above gem of a post keeps me confident that things aren't going to get better soon. I'd say we're going down hill - in a derailed train...powered by a hyper-drive.

Spoiler: Let's get comfortable and enjoy the show!

 

[Reeve]

By the way: One thing we could all do to turn things around is stop using private banks. Take all of our money out and go back to the non-digital days. Maybe even return to bartering.

But let's be honest: Hell will freeze over before any sane person actually does that!

 

[Devil's Due]

By the way: One thing we could all do to turn things around is stop using private banks. Take all of our money out and go back to the non-digital days. Maybe even return to bartering.

But let's be honest: Hell will freeze over before any sane person actually does that!

I've actually deleted my Facebook account and closed my USBank account and now instead only work with a local credit union (and trying to gather all my money in bills) and spread knowledge through posters / brochures. I suppose hell froze over than, because there are some people working like this, they just aren't able to talk about it since they've mostly deleted their online profiles / severely limit where they go.

There's a lot of protest going on. I left the Air Force ROTC program to train as an officer because of this breach of the consitution. Rallies are being organized around the country under the banner "Restore the Fourth." Visit their website here:

http://www.restorethefourth.net/

It's all peaceful. We're just rallying protests and using other legal means to show our displeasure sure as the petitions online and calling congressmen, but we need more help. Just gotta keep spreading the word!

Because we cannot afford to ignore it this time. Once this gets settled, then I'll happy return to ROTC and FB and crap again, but how long that will take is unknown.

EDIT: Post 1919, the end of the War to End all Wars. How.. well, actually not ironic but whatever. Maybe if this was my 1912 post or something instead that'd be more accurate.

 

[Tanakh]

Anyway, what I was trying to say is, it's a much bigger part of US society than Egyptian society, or, well, the word anyway. Hence why I expected someone to go "Hey, the NSA did what? That's not freedom! Let's do all we can to stop this!" or something, even if their concept of freedom is a bit, well, strange and not too well defined, often being used as a meaningless buzzword.

But why would you expect that? Gringos are one of the most passive and stable societies, in the last 50 years they passed from being one of the best places to live to have social indexes quite similar to Mexico, especially in wealth distribution and social mobility (the second being probably the closest you can get to have a "freedom index").

They have a very distorted impression of themselves, in general, which i attribute in no small part to the manifest destiny ideology. But in general i see them as conservative and passive, again, based on their indexes, current pop culture, their legislation and their politicians.

I guess what i am saying is, you seem like a smart folk, why would you base your expectations of USA on their self propaganda rather than their actions and numbers?

Also, as i pointed out on another similar thread, we have had documented proof that the US gov has been spying using the net both americans and non americans in 2001, then in 2006, then in 2008... if they didn't cared then, why now?

As for revolutions and freedom, you are right the liberals and freedom fighters are just a few in Egypt, but do you know how many russians did their revolution? Around 0.1% of the population, that is about 1 in 1000 dudes. Revolutions are weird, numbers vary, but they almost never represent their countries brah.

 

[Reeve]

By the way: One thing we could all do to turn things around is stop using private banks. Take all of our money out and go back to the non-digital days. Maybe even return to bartering.

But let's be honest: Hell will freeze over before any sane person actually does that!

I've actually deleted my Facebook account and closed my USBank account and now instead only work with a local credit union (and trying to gather all my money in bills) and spread knowledge through posters / brochures. I suppose hell froze over than, because there are some people working like this, they just aren't able to talk about it since they've mostly deleted their online profiles / severely limit where they go.

There's a lot of protest going on. I left the Air Force ROTC program to train as an officer because of this breach of the constitution. Rallies are being organized around the country under the banner "Restore the Fourth." Visit their website here:

http://www.restorethefourth.net/

It's all peaceful. We're just rallying protests and using other legal means to show our displeasure sure as the petitions online and calling congressmen, but we need more help. Just gotta keep spreading the word!

Because we cannot afford to ignore it this time. Once this gets settled, then I'll happy return to ROTC and FB and crap again, but how long that will take is unknown.

EDIT: Post 1919, the end of the War to End all Wars. How.. well, actually not ironic but whatever. Maybe if this was my 1912 post or something instead that'd be more accurate.

It made me happy to read this, thanks

Myself, on the other hand, am not a citizen of Eagleland and I'm also a uni student so I can't exactly be "going off the grid" atm xD

I hope you're able to get your country sorted out! So good luck.

Spoiler: I guess you could say....

MAY THE FOURTH BE WITH YOU.

 

[Abyes_Shovel]

From my paranoid opinion, I'm not from the U.S, I thought someone was no doubt spying on us all anyway so y'know, I behave I always have I haven't got anything to hide. Not that you need to it's an absolute violation of privacy and in some ways human rights but I can honestly say I really don't have the motivation to blather on about human rights tonight.

 

[Lunar Shadow]

I doubt that will happen. There's not many countries that are hostile to us. The world is moving forward, and becoming more globalized, with a better understanding and communication with other countries wars are less likely to happen. Few or no one goes to war to expand their borders anymore. Some countries aren't fear mongering. <_< Some even get rid of most of their military, to spend money on more important things, like Sweden has been doing since they stopped forcing military service on the young.

Also, haha, no. Only in the way that you'll one day end. Debt. >_>

I don't care. I have no love for humans.

Right, debt. Like how for every dollar we owe, we're owed 80 cents? Or how our debt is less than a percent of our gross worth? Our debt causes us issues when it comes to our economy, but it's not what will cause us to collapse. Try again.

By the way, The US hasn't had a draft since Vietnam. We're all volunteer, and yet we still have one of the largest militaries on earth. And I already said, that's fine for Sweden, but there are still threats out there and future threats to be prepared for, and somebody is going to have to foot a lot of the bill. The US is in the best position to do it.

Whether or not your misanthropy is genuine doesn't really matter. It's a futile standpoint and there's no point in me even addressing it.

Hopefully one of your perceived "threats" will win in the end then. That's probably because soldiers seems to be celebrated as heroes in your culture. >_> Anyway, I find it meaningless to argue with the brainwashed.

What is unfortunately overlooked by many Europeans is that the peace you cherish so greatly was bought and secured with American blood. There is simply no way around this fact.

If you are referring to WW2, that logic would dictate that Europe had more to thank the USSR for as they lost ALOT more blood than Americans retaking Europe.

 

[secretkeeper12]

Apologies for the long and somewhat inflaming post. I've got a few things to get off my chest (not against any of you, though!)

I've been telling people about it, as many as I can, but the most I can seem to do is convince them to put electrical tape over any device with a webcam.

Hold on, I thought the problem was the Gov. snooping on private conversations, not literally spying on people through their own devices? That seems like it'd be rather pointless, you know?

Though really, while I like to be able to keep my person safe from BS like this, it seems like most people completely deserve whatever they get.

That's a rather harsh viewpoint. I mean, the only "crime" they've committed is not caring enough. If it bites them in the ass then it shouldn't be a surprise, but I wouldn't consider it a justice.

For so long, the populace has been asleep. The media will never let you understand the slow but cancerous changes that have been changing America for freedom to enslavement since the 1970s. They are on the governments payroll, taking stories pre-written for them by "government officials" who write both the left wing and right wing side of the story. They keep those even partially invested in government distracted by wedge issues like gay marriage or whatever else pushes buttons, all the while working to disarm the populace and sending young men to war to die for old men's money. It has to stop, but it can only stop if you decide to act. Please watch this, and please get involved.

I don't buy it. There's so many outlets for news and communication, from newspapers to television to the world wide web, that it would be remarkable if the government could actually control it all. Not that it's impossible, just seems like such an enormous (and, if you're videos prove anything, futile) effort. Finally, accessible foreign newspapers like the Guardian are more than willing to report on our scandals and affairs, so rest assured those "young men" were capable of educating themselves on their country's motivations before joining the armed forces.

Are the "tin foil hat" guys the problem? Spend a hundred years screaming 1984, and let people get used to the concept. Then when it actually happens, well,... So the tin foil hat guys were right all along? That's cool.

Probably more likely that people are living in their own self-reinforcing bubbles, rather than discussing things with those they disagree with. Because disagreements are unpleasant.

There are a lot of questions to be asked, and discussions to be had. Who is discussing the benefits and ramifications of "Big Brother"? Who is coming up with solutions for real world problems, that don't create a high risk of a police state later?

Well from my experience people who take the stance against government on these issues tend to be quite arrogant and self-reinforcing. It's probably just a result of poor communication-you can't exactly be kind when telling someone they're being exploited beyond their control- but its rather irritating and distracting.

Likewise, the US is, as a whole, very big on democracy, and how it makes them the greatest nation on Earth. And yet half the voters don't bother voting, and massive slabs of the nation truly despise other massive slabs.

It's like you don't understand that's part of the system and what makes it good. I didn't agree with either big candidate in the last Presidential election, so I didn't vote for either. And I'm not going to waste chunks of my day when I'm a poor college student and was working or studying instead, standing in line to throw my vote away on a third party candidate.

I've never thought of it that way, actually. Perhaps our apathy is a result of more than just human laziness! That's the type of thing we should be doing studies on.

Quick! Someone show me the poll turnouts from the UK's last election!

snip

If you want to have your arguments taken seriously, you're gonna have to have some sources to back it up; otherwise it's just a bunch of broad claims anyone could make.

Oh yeah, and also, so many people have so much apathy to this thing it's incredible. Seriously. The media sweeping it under the rug. The government witch hunt. Which celebrity is marrying whom. This place is the worst. I swear. (Lucky me. I just so happen to be residing in what I feel is the worst state of this terrible country. Also, I called this country terrible. I'm a terrorist now according to a lot of Americans.)

The way I see it, everyone's gonna have to stop caring about the world's problems at SOME point. Whether they draw the line at themselves, world hunger or government surveillance, people can only worry so much before turning apathetic. Of course, when all sorts of problems everywhere never get taken care of (how're those chocolate slaves [http://thecnnfreedomproject.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/16/chocolate-explainer/]holding up?), then yeah. it's fucking disgraceful.

What Orwell feared were those who would ban books. What Huxley feared was that there would be no reason to ban a book, for there would be no one who wanted to read one. Orwell feared those who would deprive us of information. Huxley feared those who would give us so much that we would be reduced to passivity and egotism. Orwell feared that the truth would be concealed from us. Huxley feared the truth would be drowned in a sea of irrelevance. Orwell feared we would become a captive culture. Huxley feared we would become a trivial culture, preoccupied with some equivalent of the feelies, the orgy porgy, and the centrifugal bumblepuppy. As Huxley remarked in Brave New World Revisited, the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that our desire will ruin us.

It seems simple, but it really isn't. The main problem I see is separating distractions from legit issues. We can all agree that sex, drugs, or rock n' roll are just wastes of time, but what about things like education, religion, or parenting? Even the aforemented rock n' roll could be a force for good if it highlights social issues in society. Of course, laziness is still a huge factor in apathy, which most people agree is a bad thing. Problem being they already see themselves as "doing enough".

Also, I wasn't propagating peace or acceptance. I don't care. I don't despise any single type of person. I hate everyone equally.

Genuine question: What would have to happen to humans to be worthy of respect or at least acquaintanceship?

We have more distractions now than during the mass levels of protest the US experienced in the 60's and 70's as well. Back then, they didn't have a cell phone ringing or texting every minute, and they didn't have an MMO to get back to as soon as work was over. I imagine more people did their conversations and meetings in person and in groups far more often than we do today, where something like this NSA thing would spark a fire and mob mentality would make more people feel comfortable about "doing something about it".

I think most "slacktivists" honestly don't care about the issues they support, and would contribute nothing to the cause otherwise. People who honestly care still get out there and protest like always. If they don't convince anyone join them, odds are they wouldn't of even without social media.

Let the wishes of the few outweigh the needs of many -
In this land where money talks we have little chance if any.
Bring the nation back to basics -
Lionize Dickensian dreams,
Hide a heart that's grey and cold behind an image squeaky-clean.

This type of stuff has been going on since the Gilded Age. Considering how far we've come in the century since (like the existence of regularions, for starters) and the huge amount of support humanitarian causes get in the Western world, I'd say, bar complete social collapse, people won't let these tyrannies last much longer. It's not gonna be anytime soon, but the spark is certainly there.

i am very morally against prism, but at the same time i want to play devils advocate just a little bit for fun.

im not talking about the justification of we need it to stop the terrorist. no im talking about if the worse thing i have to worry about is some one sitting in a room listening and watching me have phone sex, we as a society have came a long way. in the industrial revolution the worse thing we had to worry about was a long list, mutilated limbs, damaged lungs, working 14 hours a day 7 days a week and not making enough to feed my kids. in medieval society the worse thing to worry about was also a long list, being forced to fight in some lords war i care nothing about, being raped and pillage by said lord or another lord cause they wanted some thing i have, a huge portion of my children dieing at birth.

life sucks, and this is a gross abuse of our government. if you take a step back and look at the big picture you will see prism is bad, but it ant rapping you and steeling your food yet. we must be ever vigilant, because if they could get away with it you could bet your ass they would.

Agreed. Glad I'm not the only one with some perspective!

Doesn't validate PRISM, though.

 

[Generic4me]

To be honest, there isn't really any reaction because we're currently in the middle of the event. We don't really know what happened, because it is still happening.

But I feel that people are being so apathetic to this is because we've started to get to the breaking point of how much we really care.

Yeah, it sucks, but damn it, I have bills to pay. I have a kid to raise. I have places to be, people to see, shit to do, I don't have time to go and protest something like this, and it's not like my protesting is going to mean anything anyways, look at OWS, they had this enormous movement, but they gave up eventually and nothing got changed. You can't win, and those who lash out are punished. I can't afford that punishment. I'll let other people deal with it. In 20 years, it probably won't matter anyways.

That's basically the argument, and it's pretty hard to argue against. Everything in there is absolute truth, and they're absolutely right that there is literally nothing we can do. We might slow them down, they might throw us a small compromise, but it'll be throwaway and utterly useless. In the long run, we still lose the same amount.

 

[Abomination]

Because nobody has seen it being used to harm somebody in a practical manner yet. It's difficult to have a riot about government powers when there's been no example of the government using those powers to harm the average citizen.

Everything you do is already recorded someway somehow and can be accessed by somebody, only this time it's the government. Folks didn't care when ICQ or MSN or Hotmail or G-mail has access to everything you've ever typed via their services so the government having it really doesn't change... anything.

 

[bfgmetalhead]

And I have nothing against Sweden (I am of Swedish heritage, myself) but it's not really fair to compare it to America. Sweden is a fine country, but let's be fair here: it's small, less populous, and it has few enemies. America is a superpower, and the only one in the world by many accounts. We have many people looking to knock us down a peg or two, a very large military force which is large not only to defend us but also to provide hefty support to our less militarily capable allies (like Sweden), and a combination of a huge landmass and equally impressive population to keep track of. I'm not saying these are excuses for shifty dealings, but certain considerations have to made to keep us as secure as we've become accustomed to.

I'm pretty sure many of us don't want your "protection", or anything close to it. We had to protest when the piracy acts were being made, because one was almost forced on us, which is something that came from you. >_> We haven't been in a war since 1814, which is almost twohundred years by now.

I think time will take care of America anyway, so I don't see why anyone would bother. Much more impressive superpowers didn't stand the test of time (Rome for example). Hopefully it'll be sooner rather than later though.

That's easy to claim until the shit hits the fan. The US is the biggest supporter of the UN and the largest military contributor in NATO. Like it or not, many countries depend on our support. How much support our allies need is always up for debate, no doubt, but the fact they they want it generally is not. France had one major interdiction into Mali, and they still needed United States support in the form of troop transport and other equipment. Your views about America seem pretty narrow-minded. Just because we have power means we're like the Romans or other ancient empires? I think you need to take a step back from your blind cynicism and see the bigger picture. I would certainly think again about wishing for the collapse of the US; That's over 300 million people you're wishing doom upon for entirely petty reasons, buddy, not even including how the rest of the world would be affected. When countries collapse, it affects a LOT more than just the government.

I doubt that will happen. There's not many countries that are hostile to us. The world is moving forward, and becoming more globalized, with a better understanding and communication with other countries wars are less likely to happen. Few or no one goes to war to expand their borders anymore. Some countries aren't fear mongering. <_< Some even get rid of most of their military, to spend money on more important things, like Sweden has been doing since they stopped forcing military service on the young.

Also, haha, no. Only in the way that you'll one day end. Debt. >_>

I don't care. I have no love for humans.

I Agree with you wholeheartedly, American values are some of the worst that I can imagine. As a citizen of the UK I often see America as a more twisted version of my own country, this is mostly due to the political process and the apparent foolishness of a large chunk of it's populace. I am sure that many Americans are quite aware of the failures of their country and actively engage these problems like I do in mine, cause we all know the UK is far from perfect.

Nations in Europe are the last, best hope for humanity. We generally shun religion and are heavily invested in advanced scientific research, this is a sign of progress. Now, America is home to many talented and brilliant minds that shun selfish capitalistic American values in favor of dedicating their lives to the betterment of mankind, these are the people that America should celebrate instead of defending their so called 'freedom'. America is heading towards a Corpocracy, some would say it already is one, with a gerrymandered two party system that is at the beck and call of lobbyists and the highest bidder.

The 'freedom' that some Americans defend is as hollow as their constitution, I'll readily admit that the American constitution was once a good thing that protected the citizens from the British. However that was over 200 years ago, I often draw correlations between the vile Islamic emirates and America because of the Constitution. Both cultures fanatically defend the importance of their guidebook which is understandable, however both are as bad as each other. Both lead to a dark age, one under the fist of Islam that crushes all free thought and places mankind in the care of a selfish, cruel and domineering deity (same for Christianity). The other under corporate domination were everything in life will have a price and social disparity will see nearly all those not born into the higher classes suffer for nothing but a fat cat's bonus and swelling balance.

Back to my country, America is the largest cultural imperialist on earth; American values and tradition flood the airwaves and media outlets across the globe. I can only watch as my nation becomes more and more like America, corporations gaining more and more power, growing reliance on military worship to justify violence, an increasing amounts of 'greed is good' mentality (thanks Thatch) and the worship of stupidity and pointless things like footballers.
Now there is hope for the world, that lies with our intellectuals, academics and scientists. The citizenry of America need to rise to defend what is important and stop worshiping the dollar, the gun and the bliss of ignorance; only then can America become a place to look up to again and call itself 'the land of the free'.

P.S I would like to point out that America does produce some damn good games .
pp.s If this offends you please don't post a nasty response, Thank you xxx.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

It is mostly because so much of the American population is apathetic to things that don't immediately impact their lives. Even worse, is a lot of them actually defend this kind of thing. More and more scare tactics and terror mongering are used to get the American public to practically beg for having more rights taken away so that they can have more 'security'.
It is pretty outrageous and sorta blows my mind but I am in the minority I suppose. Most people I know are fine with losing rights so that they can feel safe from all the big scary terrorists that lurk in every corner.

 

[Therumancer]

If you want to have your arguments taken seriously, you're gonna have to have some sources to back it up; otherwise it's just a bunch of broad claims anyone could make.

I consider this an evasion. I'm addressing this less because of what you said than to make a general point to a lot of similar things said here over the years, including the *ahem* citation needed title attached to my profile as a title.

When someone asks a question and I provide an answer I generally point out where the information is from. I do not generally do people's own research for them. For example, in regards to what I just posted, I clearly referenced the security situation after 9/11 and the re-building of the US intelligence infrastructure and debates surrounding it. That is a reference. If you want to check this out, and are interested, it's thus a simple matter for you to go back to news articles and such dealing with government information gathering from that time period. There is not one source in something like this but rather something you can see a bit at a time from numerous articles dealing with people's concerns both before, during, and after the establishment of Homeland Security and The Patriot Act. In a case like this to raise a legitimate criticism you'd have to present something you believe proves me wrong, especially since it borders on common knowledge for someone who was paying attention at the time, rather than me needing to go beyond what I did since I did reference a source.

By extension I will also mention that one of the reasons why I rarely provide links is because I find it increasingly pointless, as if someone is intent on disagreeing with me on The Internet, all the evidence in the world isn't going to matter, especially when dealing with large scale issues that involve trends of behavior. An example of this would be a recent debate I was involved in dealing with the Muslim Meta-Culture, I posted a number of links to reinforce a point, which I specified were intended as a sampling to get people started for those that were interested. This of course lead to questions like "well, two of those are very similar and deal with the same area", and "well, what about Indonesia, nothing about there" (to which I also provided another link simply to make the point of the trend of behavior). The end result being that at the end of the day if people don't want to accept the point, and aren't going to be bothered to do any research when you tell them something they don't want to hear to begin with, nothing you actually do is going to matter, so why bother. Honestly... I could put up dozens of old articles about "The Patriot Act", government wiretapping, and the pros and cons of restructuring the US intelligence community, which after hours or days of long drawn out reading would wind up supporting what I said. But for starters I doubt you or anyone else involved in this discussion would seriously read it, and secondly if your pre-disposed to disagree with the answer I gave (in response to the OP's question) to begin with, your still likely to find reasons to argue with it.

The point mostly being, when I give a reference, even off handedly, I get tired of people telling me there isn't one.

That said, I stand by what I said. I don't expect this response to matter much or garner much positive response, but after some E-mail I received I became inspired to try yet again.

 

[Therumancer]

It is mostly because so much of the American population is apathetic to things that don't immediately impact their lives. Even worse, is a lot of them actually defend this kind of thing. More and more scare tactics and terror mongering are used to get the American public to practically beg for having more rights taken away so that they can have more 'security'.
It is pretty outrageous and sorta blows my mind but I am in the minority I suppose. Most people I know are fine with losing rights so that they can feel safe from all the big scary terrorists that lurk in every corner.

Well, yes and no. As I've said before, if you follow this back to the beginnings of the most current issues the American people were hardly apathetic. Nobody came running up and said "give us your freedoms so we can make you safe" to be followed through by people sheepishly turning them over. If you go back to things like "The Patriot Act", the establishment of "Homeland Security", and everything else, you'll notice it was being viewed with suspicion and under fire since the very beginning. People have been hating on Gitmo and the way people were being thrown in there from the very beginning. Heck, they turned the entire Marvel Universe "Civil War" story arc away from the original idea to make it a huge analogy for the war on terror and these kinds of rights issues.

That said, I think one of the biggest problems with security is that it's too compartmentalized. When something really happens almost nobody outside of the incident knows about it for reasons of privacy, fear of causing a panic, etc. In a lot of cases the guys gathering the information can't tell people what they know even if they want to, which usually leads to the media building up a version of events based on what little is known, while the police and other authorities are more or less forced not to comment or correct anyone. Even when I worked for the casinos when something serious happened nobody would even hear about it, usually not even the rest of security, it would be kept to as few people as possible as a matter of policy... and the police and intelligence services are arguably even worse.

To be honest I think dialogue on subjects like this is difficult because so few people, including those in positions where they should know, really have any idea as to the big picture. Most arguments about this kind of thing seem to come down to either paranoia, or people argueing against security in a general sense usually from the position that they feel it's a power grab. I honestly have less of a problem with the security itself than the lack of transparency into it, I understand why an undercover operative cannot be exposed, or the specifics of a hidden camera or observation device revealed (as once you know about these things they cannot be used again), but I do think a lot more information can be presented than we see now, and I think we need better communication and cooperation between private and public security sources. Most private security has only the interest of their employers at stake (which comes down to money and reputation usually) as I've mentioned before. There is little incentive for private businesses to be more involved or share information, not to mention a degree of disrespect between private security and real police which can be ironic given the staggering amount of information gathered by some private sources in just watching their own back yard. As things stand now private sources are actually motivated not to volunteer information, and the police can't ask for what they might not even suspect.

 

[Tanakh]

The problem is largely that the left wing (which I blame a lot) got all uppity about the idea of profiling which is what the government wanted to do in the name of security to begin with.

Ignoring the rest of your post (which i think has shaky basis as a whole, but some good points), I just wanted to point out that both Democrats and Republicans are quite against profiling; Republicans proved so with the recent IRS scandal, following simple profiling rules it would have made sense for the IRS to target more anti tax groups. Thus I would suggest stop blaming the "left wing", because all your organizations seem equally sensitive to profiling when it targets them.

 

[Therumancer]

The problem is largely that the left wing (which I blame a lot) got all uppity about the idea of profiling which is what the government wanted to do in the name of security to begin with.

Ignoring the rest of your post (which i think has shaky basis as a whole, but some good points), I just wanted to point out that both Democrats and Republicans are quite against profiling; Republicans proved so with the recent IRS scandal, following simple profiling rules it would have made sense for the IRS to target more anti tax groups. Thus I would suggest stop blaming the "left wing", because all your organizations seem equally sensitive to profiling when it targets them.

Not really because of the way the definition has to be stretched for this to be an issue to begin with in the right wing's case. Mostly the right wing seems to use it as a defense figuring "turn about is fair play" when it comes to this kind of thing, by making a semantics based argument within the existing legal system when it comes up in cases like this. For the record I myself have been very critical of the right wind for not sticking to it's own principles for short term political victories because of arguments like this.

Overall though the left wing is against profiling, the right wing is for it. There is also a clear difference between when the right to do this should apply. Context matters, and there is a world of difference between profiling for reasons of security, and reasons of political expediency. It's like the difference between murdering someone and killing in self defense, the law allows one, but not the other.

That said there isn't much shaky about my argument, to be honest it seems a lot more like your trying to argue semantics in raising this point than anything, while I've been pretty straightforward.